Author Topic: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?  (Read 2153 times)

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Offline J0SH

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The proof is in their book, Satan only killed several people and it was because God wanted to play a little game and made a bet with Satan. Sure, it wasn't right for Satan to torment Job, but the pain and misery Satan supposedly created is only a very small pond compared to the giant ocean of misery the biblegod has dished out on his creation. I am absolutely stunned that Xtians are too blind to see this. Is it low IQ? Gullibility? Brainwashing? A combination of the three? Why are Xtians logic and reasoning capabilities so twisted? They say that Satan is responsible for the downfall of mankind, which is simply ridiculous, and that all evil in the world is because of Satan corrupting people. They call him the "father of all lies, and a murderer" Now does that make any sense? ...No, it doesn't, but to a majority of Xtians it makes perfect sense. How silly! If Satan is supposedly so evil, then why is he mentioned very little in the bible?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 04:22:54 AM by J0SH »
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2013, 04:20:50 AM »
It's brainwashing with a side of cognitive dissonance.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2013, 07:18:04 AM »
In Die Hard, John McClane kills 10 people while Hans Gruber kills 2. Therefore, John McClane is the true villain of the film. We could do the same with Commando.

I'm not sure why you find it ridiculous that Christians consider Satan the downfall of mankind and the father of all lies.   Straight recorded body counts aren't the only factor.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 07:25:15 AM »
In Die Hard, John McClane kills 10 people while Hans Gruber kills 2. Therefore, John McClane is the true villain of the film. We could do the same with Commando.

I'm not sure why you find it ridiculous that Christians consider Satan the downfall of mankind and the father of all lies.   Straight recorded body counts aren't the only factor.

I was going to say the same myself, but I would have added that it would be reasonable to include all other factors, and sadly, with The Trinity, there are none.

In the OT, what did God actually do to make the whole of humanity's lot better? What did Jesus do, other than issue a series of vague offers that were completely unverifiable; offers that anyone could have made?

So, are there any other factors?
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2013, 07:30:18 AM »
In Die Hard, John McClane kills 10 people while Hans Gruber kills 2. Therefore, John McClane is the true villain of the film. We could do the same with Commando.

I'm not sure why you find it ridiculous that Christians consider Satan the downfall of mankind and the father of all lies.   Straight recorded body counts aren't the only factor.

You might have a point if the sheer numbers (as in 3 people vs. worldwide flood, for example) weren't so overwhelming.
Also, John McClane is hardly omnipotent. Had he been, it would have been the work of an instant to take out Hans Gruber with no collateral damage whatsoever.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 08:05:55 AM »
Yet in Job, satan is not a proper name but a title, the accuser - prosecuting counsel if you like. The gospel writers are the ones to take up the name, along with Beelzebub (from the Elijah cycle where he is Lord of Flies). Given what we have in the gospels, it seems to me that it was theology that put everything together and blamed a character called Satan.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2013, 08:16:02 AM »
In Die Hard, John McClane kills 10 people while Hans Gruber kills 2.

NB that if McClane hadn't interfered with Gruber's plan, Gruber would have killed about thirty people.  NB also that McClane killed those ten people to save those thirty.  I could go on.

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Therefore, John McClane is the true villain of the film.

There's a bit of a difference between killing a criminal and killing an innocent person.

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We could do the same with Commando.

It's interesting that the two comparisons you come up with are both from fiction.  Do you have any nonfictional analogies?  (After all, you would say that the Bible is nonfiction, right?  Or at least partially nonfiction?)

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I'm not sure why you find it ridiculous that Christians consider Satan the downfall of mankind and the father of all lies.

Yahweh created Satan, so Yahweh is ultimately the source of anything Satan does.

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Straight recorded body counts aren't the only factor.

Generally speaking, no, but when the body count runs up into the millions, I personally tend to consider other factors as irrelevant.
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2013, 04:04:57 AM »
Satan is responsible for the downfall of man? Why? Because he tricked Eve into eating the forbidden fruit? That's all Satan tricked man into doing. What did God do? He caste man out of the garden of Eden and brought them to a world of pain and suffering and cursed them with original sin. Remember, God made all the rules, He's the one who made the world work the way it does because He was the creator. Satan has done none of that. So no, I wouldn't say God's body count is the deciding factor, but it's certainly a contributing factor. We're talking about merciless killing of people, many of whom were innocent, who weren't murderers, terrorists or other criminals you might try to excuse execution for. People often associate pestilence with the devil too and yet, you see God using pestilence as punishment in the bible.

I would more liken God of the bible to some of the cruel dictators we've had in our time than an action hero. I am sure when people talk about the death toll as a result of genocide folks don't turn around and suggest those responsible aren't necessarily the bad guys, because look, James Bond killed loads of people and he's an action hero. Why would I bring up genocide? Because even in the Bible the death toll is that high - if we factor in natural evil as part of how God designed the world, then the toll is much higher. Plus, lets not forget the flood.


Have folks perhaps considered that if the bible really is true that history is written by the victors and it was God who won? Of course Satan is going to be passed off as the bad guy, of course God is going to be the good guy and all His killings would be justified in the text written to document them. We see this kind of thing throughout history.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 04:12:51 AM by Seppuku »
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2013, 05:05:32 AM »
Sorry, Seppuku, but I have to disagree with you on this one. The Genesis account of the incident, (Gen 3), specifically mentions the snake (ha nahash in Hebrew) and there is not connection there in the text with any other character. This incident is about the wiliest of the animals, who incidentally, spoke the truth about eating the apple whereas god had lied about them dying.

I even don't think there is a concept of devil in the OT at all. The only mention is in Job where the word satan comes with the article and means the accuser and is not a proper name at all.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2013, 06:55:38 AM »
Why?  This children's hymn I grew up listening to explains it pretty well.

"Jesus loves me, this I know,
for the Bible tells me so."

Offline kcrady

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2013, 08:03:24 AM »
I would say two reasons: indoctrination, and confirmation bias.  No one ever hands a potential convert a Bible and says, "Here, read this, and tell me what you think about God."  Instead, they are inculcated with the lens they're supposed to read it through before they're turned loose.  They're told the Cliff Notes version of "the Christian Story" (which isn't really what the Biblical texts actually say), that Yahweh/Jesus is the good guy(s), he/they are perfect, they love you, they're good, good, good, etc. and Satan is the bad guy.  In Christian-dominated cultures, there's all the art of Yahweh and Jesus portrayed in various appealing ways (fluffy clouds in a blue sky, rainbows and rays of light, pretty female angels, Jesus hugging the children, etc.), and Satan with horns and bat-wings--even though the Bible never describes Yahweh or Satan that way.

Once all that's in place, then the normal human tendency--even without the explicit theological injunction to give Yahweh a moral blank check ("he's infinite, we can't judge him," etc.)--to fit the text into the Yahweh is good/Satan is bad pattern.

Example: Is Dumbledore a good guy in the Harry Potter series?  Of course he is!  Charming, dotty old man with the long beard and half-moon spectacles, friendly and soft-spoken, not ugly and horrid like Voldemort.  And yet...he knowingly subjected a boy to a life of horrible abuse, then used him and his little friends as chess pieces in his war with Voldemort.  Also, let's not forget that he was the right-hand man of the Dark Lord Grindelwald during his rise to power.  It's only later with the benefit of Fridge Logic that readers start questioning Dumbledore's bona fides.  And he doesn't have the unique theological "armor" that Yahweh has.
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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2013, 08:56:36 AM »
I like the book of Job.

It tells me that:

- sheol is a more pleasant place than Earth. 14:13
- bad people are punished by God while they are on this Earth. (incessantly)
- bad people are not punished after death. 21:13
- Satan wonders to and fro, like Peter Cook, and Liz Hurley
- nice people are very rich.
- nice people live until 200+
- Satan is the son of God, and that God had many sons.
- other people in your life can be collateral damage done by God, doing arbitrary things.
- if you curse God, you die 2:19
- we receive evil at the hand of God 2:10, as a natural consequence of balance
- the Earth is long 11:9, and can be picked up at each end 38:13

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Tonus

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2013, 09:09:05 AM »
The proof is in their book, Satan only killed several people and it was because God wanted to play a little game and made a bet with Satan.

The body count might be fairly staggering.  The story tells us that Job had thousands of domestic animals, which indicates that he had dozens --if not hundreds-- of hired hands.  All but one of these is massacred for the sake of seeing how far Job can be pushed.  God understood that these people might suffer considerable harm, because he makes sure to warn Satan not to harm Job.  Nor does god so much as mention all of these innocent dead when he trash-talks Satan after the first phase of their wager.  They are incidental.

Who survives the murderous rampages in the end?  Job's wife, who advised him to "curse god and die."  The three "false" friends are also allowed to live when Job intervenes on their behalf, even though their arguments made more sense than god's own actions.  They believed that Job must have done some wrong, otherwise why would he be suffering punishment?  A reasonable argument, for which they are threatened with death.

Satan is exactly as evil as god intends for him to be, and he falls short of god in that respect.  Hey, you can't be allowed to show up the Big Man, can you?

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2013, 06:13:57 PM »
Sorry, Seppuku, but I have to disagree with you on this one. The Genesis account of the incident, (Gen 3), specifically mentions the snake (ha nahash in Hebrew) and there is not connection there in the text with any other character. This incident is about the wiliest of the animals, who incidentally, spoke the truth about eating the apple whereas god had lied about them dying.

I even don't think there is a concept of devil in the OT at all. The only mention is in Job where the word satan comes with the article and means the accuser and is not a proper name at all.

I think this is a fair point. So it was a snake a not the devil. I remember when growing up it was always the snake was the devil, but I suppose this wasn't accurate to the OT accounts of this. Well, I guess I should probably read up on this. If what you're saying is accurate, then it's kinda funny, since joining this forum I've become quite researched in what the bible says from Christians and atheists alike and from my own digging, but it seems some of the stuff I rely on from what I learned from going to a Church of England school is inaccurate.

Ah well, I guess the point still remains at least, it was God who presented the downfall of man, not Satan or some snake.
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Offline Schizoid

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2013, 08:59:50 PM »
"Their book"--the proof is always their book, the book, the "Word of God" or "God in Word Form".  Since believers consider the Bible to be god's word, then for them that is the last and final word, you can't argue with the word of god or question it (by their way of thinking).

Just because some of the Bible is historically accurate that is proof for believers that it is true.  Just because there may have lived a man named Jesus who was a preacher in the early first century, for believers that is all the proof they need that everything else the Bible claims about Jesus is true as well.

If it was a drug for a disease from which a Christian suffered, one which their god chose not to cure even though they prayed with faith to be cured, they would demand that it had been tried and tested and that there was clear evidence that it worked.  For them the bible gets a pass from the proof required for everyday, ordinary things when it should be held to a higher standard.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2013, 03:53:08 AM »
I think it is like looking at an historical novel and saying that because the facts about the places and the politics are right, the story must also be true.The bible is not an historical novel but people apply the same tests to it - places accurate, quotes Roman names - must al be true then.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2013, 10:11:52 AM »
I think it is like looking at an historical novel and saying that because the facts about the places and the politics are right, the story must also be true.The bible is not an historical novel but people apply the same tests to it - places accurate, quotes Roman names - must al be true then.

Heck, we could just compare it to just about any other mythology in History, I mean, in many mythologies there are things that are considered historically accurate, but I am sure we're not going to suggest that King Gilgamesh of Uruk was actually part god, who went on a quest with his best friend Enkidu, who was created by the gods to challenge Gilgamesh and was formed from a comet crashing to the earth. The two friends, then, protected by the god Shamash took down the guardian of the cedar forest, Humbaba, who was as large as a mountain. Also, we're not going to suggest that Gilgamesh was later proposed to by the goddess Ishtar and when turned down she unleashed the bull of heaven, who was consequently slain by Gilgamesh and Enkidu. We're also not going to suggest that Gilgamesh also managed to find the key to immortality and later lost it. Or that he visited the underworld, met the Noah of Mesopotamian mythology, Utnapishtim and sought to find his best friend in attempt to bring him to the land of the living.

It's a great story, but its historical accuracy is rather limited. We know there was a city called 'Uruk', we know there was a King Gilgamesh and where the ancient texts suggest he was buried, archaeologists found a tomb, I don't think it was confirmed as Gilgamesh's tomb.  We know flood stories are quite common and it is suggested there's some historical significance to this. For the Mesopotamians they relied heavily on irrigation systems and cities were situated along the rivers Tigris and Euphrates, waters that are described as the tears of Tiamat, the mother of the gods and goddesses, who was slain by the god Marduk.

Ancient mythology has a habit of using the landscapes, societies and even current events of the times they were dreamt up. I don't see why the bible should be treated in a different light. Once upon a time, these mythologies were a part of somebody's religion. The Mesopotamians built ziggurats in honour of their deities and had their own priestesses. Plus, I would argue there's more evidence to suggest that Gilgamesh was real than Jesus and nobody uses that as an excuse to say it's evidence for the existence of Mesopotamian deities or the supernatural.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 10:14:28 AM by Seppuku »
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2013, 03:06:22 PM »
In the OT, what did God actually do to make the whole of humanity's lot better?
According to the OT, God created humanity, gave Israelites a spiritual leader, led them out of slavery, gave them commandments (including one against killing), gave them kings, and prepared them for the coming of the messiah.  Overall, the OT is the story of God's transformation of the Israelites from a directionless tribe into a nation of believers.

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What did Jesus do, other than issue a series of vague offers that were completely unverifiable; offers that anyone could have made?
According to the Bible, Jesus opened the gates of Heaven and made salvation possible, which is not something that just anyone could do.  He also directed his followers against treating other people cruelly.

NB that if McClane hadn't interfered with Gruber's plan, Gruber would have killed about thirty people.  NB also that McClane killed those ten people to save those thirty.  I could go on.
Good, now we're establishing that it's not just a matter of sheer body counts.  Things such as potential harm and future plans should also be taken into account.  This is in opposition to the OP, which claims that Christians are "blind" when judging the evilness of God and Satan, citing only acts directly recorded as having taken place.  Much as you do not simply look at the body counts at the end of the movie and draw your conclusion, but instead look at the bigger picture when making your assessment.

Oddly enough, according to the OP, Christians are unintelligent, gullible, or brainwashed when they try to use their brains instead of just comparing body counts.

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There's a bit of a difference between killing a criminal and killing an innocent person.
I disagree with that, and I think much of the industrialized world would also disagree, which would explain the general decline of stoning adulterers and capital punishment in the western world.

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It's interesting that the two comparisons you come up with are both from fiction.  Do you have any nonfictional analogies?
In the Iraq war, the number killed by "good guy" US far outnumbers those killed by "bad guy" Iraq and/or terrorists.

In World War 2, the Japanese civilians killed by the "good guy" US's bombs were more than double the number of US citizens killed by the Japanese.

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I'm not sure why you find it ridiculous that Christians consider Satan the downfall of mankind and the father of all lies.

Yahweh created Satan, so Yahweh is ultimately the source of anything Satan does.
Irrelevant to what I actually wrote, since whether you personally hold that God inherits X quality from Satan has nothing to do with whether Satan has X quality.

Also, I challenge the assertion that a creator is always the source of anything a creation does.  Can we say that the creator of a plastic bag is responsible for those who are intentionally suffocated by them?  Perhaps in an abstract, philosophical sense, but certainly not in any meaningful sense of the word.  The creator sets the features and limitations of the thing created, but that's not the same as the actual actions the creation performs.

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Generally speaking, no, but when the body count runs up into the millions, I personally tend to consider other factors as irrelevant.
I see.  Thank you for your personal opinion on the matter.  However, per the OP, I do not see why Christians should automatically be assumed to be "blind" if they do not all share the same personal opinions espoused in the OP.
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2013, 06:07:06 PM »
Quote from: Mooby
In the Iraq war, the number killed by "good guy" US far outnumbers those killed by "bad guy" Iraq and/or terrorists.

In World War 2, the Japanese civilians killed by the "good guy" US's bombs were more than double the number of US citizens killed by the Japanese.

Well, those so called 'good guys' aren't good guys in my books. I probably wouldn't suggest the soldiers were bad guys, except maybe those who have abused their position. The reason I don't consider soldiers to be the bad guys is because we train them to not question their superiors and to do as ordered, so that we have a strong militia that puts those higher up in more control of what they do. So I place the responsibility on those issuing the orders and making the decisions.

I think Hiroshima was disgusting and I think the Iraq was morally abhorrent.

But interesting you choose this perspective, as one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. This is a statement I've often heard when talking about these things. From the perspective of one, the acts of the US government with Hiroshima was to protect the freedom of its citizens, but from the perspective of Japan, it was the mindless killing of innocents, maybe even revenge - last time I checked, many of the people killed weren't responsible for Pearl Harbour. Like the many innocents who died in Iraq, particularly on that initial attack on Baghdad, they weren't a threat to the US, they weren't the bad guys. These things are never as simple as 'good vs evil'.

So there is no 'good' guy in all of this. Personally, I would like to see George W. Bush and Tony Blair in prison for war crimes, because I think they are deserving.

Where does this put God? Given the actions in the bible, I wouldn't say he's a good guy either. Perhaps a good guy in the eyes of his allies, just as I am sure people on the side of Bush. Blair, Saddam, Laden and so on have consider them the good guys, but then they see their actions as benefitting them. But that doesn't change the weight of their actions, their decisions and the toll they've accumulated.

People generally assume that God is good, but I've yet to understand why, other than of course, only being fixated on his good side. But all the bad people in history have had a good side...at least, as far as I am aware.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 06:09:10 PM by Seppuku »
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2013, 03:23:04 PM »
Mooby wrote:
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According to the OT, God created humanity, gave Israelites a spiritual leader, led them out of slavery, gave them commandments (including one against killing), gave them kings, and prepared them for the coming of the messiah.  Overall, the OT is the story of God's transformation of the Israelites from a directionless tribe into a nation of believers.

Either you're moving the goal posts, or you seriously don't consider everyone else, besides a small tribe of favored people in the story, to be humanity. It's even worse if the people who don't believe in the god go to hell, because then the god created great numbers of humans specifically to burn there.

Gosh. Thanks.
Denis Loubet

Offline Mooby

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2013, 08:35:31 PM »
Well, those so called 'good guys' aren't good guys in my books.
Fair enough.  I don't see us coming to an agreement on this point.

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Where does this put God? Given the actions in the bible, I wouldn't say he's a good guy either. Perhaps a good guy in the eyes of his allies, just as I am sure people on the side of Bush.
Perhaps this explains the views of theistic Satanists.  Do at least some believe Satan is the true hero of the Bible?  I don't know; I've never met a Satanist.

I think we're heading towards a point where we're both willing to agree that people can have legitimately varied opinions on who is good/evil in the Bible.  Which is fine by me, as I'm not really interested in exploring the relationship of God/Satan in Christianity in deep theological detail, especially with someone whose mind seems at least partially made up already (I suspect this would require a good deal of time, and I haven't been spending much time on this site lately.)  Instead, I would hope you can at least see why I disagree with the OP that Christians are automatically blind with our interpretation of our own scripture.

Mooby wrote:
Quote
According to the OT, God created humanity, gave Israelites a spiritual leader, led them out of slavery, gave them commandments (including one against killing), gave them kings, and prepared them for the coming of the messiah.  Overall, the OT is the story of God's transformation of the Israelites from a directionless tribe into a nation of believers.

Either you're moving the goal posts, or you seriously don't consider everyone else, besides a small tribe of favored people in the story, to be humanity.
Neither.  Let me try to clarify my response by breaking it down:

- God made humanity's lot better by creating humanity, without which "humanity's lot" would have no meaning;
- Also in the Old Testament, God gave the Israelites a spiritual leader, gave them commandments, gave them kings, and prepared them for the messiah;
- Thus, the OT is not the story of how God improved humanity's lot, it's the story of God's transformation of the Israelites from a directionless tribe into a nation of believers;
- This sets the stage for the events in the New Testament, in which Jesus makes the salvation of anyone in the world possible;
- In this sense, God improves humanity's lot in the OT by intervening in one nation's history to bring about what Christians consider the most important spiritual event in history (the Resurrection), which infinitely improves humanity's lot in Christian theology.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2013, 08:20:53 AM »
According to the OT, God created humanity, gave Israelites a spiritual leader, led them out of slavery, gave them commandments (including one against killing), gave them kings, and prepared them for the coming of the messiah.

So, you believe this stuff is literally true?  You think the whole nation of jews were slaves in Egypt?  You believe Moses and the Pharaoh's wizards had a magic duel?  You believe there were 10 literal plagues inflicted on the Egyptians by yhwh (after hardening the Pharaoh's heart)?  You believe the Red Sea was literally parted and hundreds of thousands of jews crossed it, while the Egyptian army was drown in it?  You believe the whole nation of jews was fed by "mana from heaven"?

You opening qualification "according to the OT" makes me wonder.

Overall, the OT is the story of God's transformation of the Israelites from a directionless tribe into a nation of believers.

Do you believe this satisfies the question "what did God actually do to make the whole of humanity's lot better?"  It strikes me as a very carefully phrased non-answer.   

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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2013, 11:36:24 AM »
Quote from: Mooby
Perhaps this explains the views of theistic Satanists.  Do at least some believe Satan is the true hero of the Bible?  I don't know; I've never met a Satanist.

I think we're heading towards a point where we're both willing to agree that people can have legitimately varied opinions on who is good/evil in the Bible.  Which is fine by me, as I'm not really interested in exploring the relationship of God/Satan in Christianity in deep theological detail, especially with someone whose mind seems at least partially made up already (I suspect this would require a good deal of time, and I haven't been spending much time on this site lately.)  Instead, I would hope you can at least see why I disagree with the OP that Christians are automatically blind with our interpretation of our own scripture.

Based on my understanding, I believe Satan is understood as the hero. However, the only Satanists I've known are Lavayan, where Satan is more of a symbol than a deity or as an existing entity. But, even then, I think some of the things in Satanism are kinda silly, but the Satanists I've known have been perfectly respectable.

With regards to our varied opinions, I have put a lot of thought before making my conclusions, as I am sure you have too. I can understand backing away. I've not been on the forum much too either and I don't have the time I used to for big discussions. So I'm gonna say 'fairdoes'.

And yes, I do understand why you disagree on that point. I agree to a certain extent with yourself in that regard. I don't think you're all automatically blind, I think many are, which is to expected in backgrounds where people are indoctrinated from a young age and taught to see things in a particular way, but of course it doesn't make up the whole of the Christian population. I understand a lot of scriptural studies have been made and I know that some people recognise the events in the bible and have tried to find an explanation for why God can be good despite the cold and dark things in the bible, despite the fact I don't think the God in the bible is a good guy. Of course, 'good' is highly subjective, but I do often find that people will exempt God from being judged bad by their own morality, even if his actions contradict said morality, sometimes filled with the argument, "it's a part of His plan" or "everything happens for a reason". These kinds of explanations would lead me to suggest that they're just making excuses and are trying to forcibly ignore the idea that God could ever be bad.

I think an example that probably best demonstrates the variation in thinking is when I went to a Christian run God debate. I posed the question, "should God be held accountable for His wrong doing?" and I made a couple of examples. 2 of the people on the panel were quick to make excuses to put God in the perfect light. One of the examples I used was the one where the kids were mauled by a bear for calling a prophet 'baldy'. One person made the excuse they're like "hoodlums" today, violent and destructive, which wasn't really based on anything and by proxy they're suggesting it would be okay if somebody were to set a load of bears free to attack a bunch of young hoodlums. One of the people understood what I was saying and I can't remember exactly what he said (it's been 4 years now), he admitted that the things God did could be seen as wrong, he understood that what I was asking wasn't black and white (good vs evil, where God is only good) and that God couldn't just be easily excused. He said he couldn't answer the question straight up, but he was willing to discuss it outside of the debate. As far as I saw it, he was clearly somebody who was willing to think on it and probably had thought about it himself and knew the answer wasn't an easy one for him to make. I since have sat down with said preacher with a drink and talked about his religion and he was very open and honest.

So he's one of the Christians to prove to me that you're not all necessarily blind followers, of course, I may not agree with your arguments. He's not the only Christian I've known to be like that, but I felt he's a good example.
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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2013, 04:16:52 AM »
@Seppuku

But is the preacher as honest and candid with his congregation as he was with you? I think its a very important question because it addresses whether they are looking/leading to truth wherever that may fall OR whether they are thoughtlessly towing the line.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2013, 09:59:52 AM »
Also, I challenge the assertion that a creator is always the source of anything a creation does.  Can we say that the creator of a plastic bag is responsible for those who are intentionally suffocated by them?  Perhaps in an abstract, philosophical sense, but certainly not in any meaningful sense of the word.  The creator sets the features and limitations of the thing created, but that's not the same as the actual actions the creation performs.
Responsibility certainly depends upon what control a creator has over particular aspects of that creation.  No, it would not be just to ascribe any responsibility to the plastic bag creator for the suffocation of the victim, because that plastic bag creator had no reasonable expectation that the creation can and would be utilized in such a regard.  But it would be just to ascribe some ethical responsibility for the creator of a defective seatbelt design if that creator a) knew about the defect, b) sold the seatbelt under the pretense that said defect did not exist (either through lying, obfuscation of the facts, or sheer avoidable negligence), and c) injury or death resulted from that defect.  Further, we ascribe responsibility to parties that do not step in to prevent tragedy when it is completely within their power to do so (depending on where you are, we may not give any legal responsibility but most people certainly put forward some ethical responsibility).

So your challenge is indeed valid, but it does depend on the capabilities of said creator with respect to said creation.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2013, 10:52:46 AM »
Also, I challenge the assertion that a creator is always the source of anything a creation does.

That would be an excellent challenge and one I agree with.  No, creators are not always responsible for their monsters. 

However, if the creator happens to be both omnipotent and omniscient, then she would indeed be responsible for everything her creations did.  Being omniscient would allow her to know what would happen under any and all circumstances and being omnipotent would allow her to have done things in a way for events to turn out exactly as she wanted. 

When you are omnipotent and omniscient, the buck stops at you.

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Offline sun_king

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2013, 11:05:42 AM »
Also, I challenge the assertion that a creator is always the source of anything a creation does.  Can we say that the creator of a plastic bag is responsible for those who are intentionally suffocated by them?  Perhaps in an abstract, philosophical sense, but certainly not in any meaningful sense of the word.  The creator sets the features and limitations of the thing created, but that's not the same as the actual actions the creation performs.

This challenge implies that you admit that the creator is not omniscient and so by default not omnipotent.

In the field that I work, divide by zero errors are quite possible and sometimes ends with unflattering results. That happens and no matter how unrealistic the scenario that made the system crash, the blame is on the developer for not anticipating the zero in the denominator. We expect the developer to be omnicient in that context and they are responsible for every action of their creation.

That says that a software developer has more responsibilities than god.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2013, 12:55:16 PM »
@Seppuku

But is the preacher as honest and candid with his congregation as he was with you? I think its a very important question because it addresses whether they are looking/leading to truth wherever that may fall OR whether they are thoughtlessly towing the line.

I think this is an excellent question. His openness with me was in front of a large group of Christians, seriously, there were only 2 atheists in the room, me and my friend and I was the only one to speak. It was an open event and it was a Christian who invited me, because they liked the fact I make challenges. Now, I do have Christian friends who I have found to be open and honest who are associates of said preacher. From how they've spoken about him, there's nothing that would have me bring his honesty into question. The group of Christians I would put him into, would be the kind who think it's good to question their faith. One of the people I know who tends to listen to him talk and seek advice holds the view that Christians should have their faith challenge, the reason she says this is because a Christian can't justify their faith if they just blindly accept it. She was also highly critical of the Church, last time I spoke of her she was looking to expose some corruption within her own Church, though I don't know what happened as a result.

Of course, I know very little about why he's a believer, be it because it's how he was raised or because as far as he's able to tell, there's truth in it. I don't see any of the traits I would associate with somebody who's following Christianity blindly, but of course, that doesn't necessarily mean anything as people can be good at wearing a mask, given my experience, I would say we're talking about somebody who isn't feigning honesty, I've not got anything that would suggest otherwise, for me to do so would bring the honesty of many others into question too and I have nothing to base such questioning on.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2013, 02:35:23 PM »
In the OT, what did God actually do to make the whole of humanity's lot better?
According to the OT, God created humanity, gave Israelites a spiritual leader, led them out of slavery, gave them commandments (including one against killing), gave them kings, and prepared them for the coming of the messiah.  Overall, the OT is the story of God's transformation of the Israelites from a directionless tribe into a nation of believers.

Quote
What did Jesus do, other than issue a series of vague offers that were completely unverifiable; offers that anyone could have made?
According to the Bible, Jesus opened the gates of Heaven and made salvation possible, which is not something that just anyone could do.  He also directed his followers against treating other people cruelly.
Indeed, I agree, OT god is an addition too far in an historically inaccurate saga of the Jews and Jesus gave vague unfalsifiable promises. You know as well as I that there was no creation of humanity, and the fact that a tribe got a god, is more than unremarkable; all the other tribes in the area had gods too.

Anyway, I assume your answer and mine to "Why do Xtians think Satan is evil and the biblegod is perfect?" is, "Because the Bible says so." As a believer (of sorts) you need think no further and I as an atheist am not really required to answer a question that, to me, is in the same league as "If a unicorn and a dragon had a fight, who would win?"
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