Author Topic: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...  (Read 17208 times)

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Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #261 on: October 02, 2013, 03:17:53 PM »
IDK, if you truly believe what you said, then you must think that it is okay to kill a child by chopping off it's head if god says to do it. Not only okay, but a wonderful thing. So chopping off children's heads is wonderful when god says to do it. Chopping off children's heads is evil, of course, if god says not to do it. Therefore the act of chopping off children's heads is neither good nor bad, but relative to what god wants

Likewise with rape, slavery, genocide, torture, burning entire villages and starving the inhabitants. All a-okay if god says so. &)

This is the same kind of thinking that allowed the Crusades, the burning of witches, the massacre of native people all over the world. It is the same kind of thinking that allows the Taliban to cut off women's hands for wearing nail polish and to stone girls to death for talking to boys. It is the same kind of thinking that allows Saudi Arabia and Uganda to execute gay men.  >:(

You have just negated the idea of absolute morality, dude. I am not a philosopher and even I can see that.

I didn't negate absolute morality at all. The difference is whether God in fact commands a particular thing. For example, there's no denying God, according to the Bible, literally killed everyone on earth at one time except for Noah and his family. But that doesn't mean it was immoral. According to the story, the earth was completely evil at that time. Kind of like putting a rabid dog to sleep. Ordinarily, yeah, it's mean and wrong to kill a dog. But if it's endangering others, then it should be done.
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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #262 on: October 02, 2013, 03:24:01 PM »
Quote
But that doesn't mean it was immoral.

Hitler was responsible for the deaths of over 10 million people. His act was immoral.

Biblegod , according to the Bible, is responsible for much more deaths than that but was moral.

You're an idiot. You're religion is idiotic, and if your god actually existed it'd be a criminal according to the general worldview of what is moral.

-Nam
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 07:19:00 AM by screwtape »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #263 on: October 02, 2013, 03:31:26 PM »
Quote from: idontknowshit
But that doesn't mean it was immoral.

Hitler was responsible for the deaths of over 10 million people. His act was immoral.

Biblegod , according to the Bible, is responsible for much more deaths than that but was moral.

You're an idiot. You're religion is idiotic, and if your god actually existed it'd be a criminal according to the general worldview of what is moral.

-Nam

Is name calling really the best way forward?
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #264 on: October 02, 2013, 03:38:14 PM »
. According to the story, the earth was completely evil at that time. Kind of like putting a rabid dog to sleep. Ordinarily, yeah, it's mean and wrong to kill a dog. But if it's endangering others, then it should be done.

However, if you could cure the rabies and show up and teach the dog when it is doing wrong, then killing it is still an immoral act.

Furthermore, think about the story, do you not consider that there would be children under the age of ten? Under 5? Under a month old?

What did the one month olds do to warrant their deaths by drowning?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #265 on: October 02, 2013, 03:38:18 PM »
Quote from: idontknowshit
But that doesn't mean it was immoral.

Hitler was responsible for the deaths of over 10 million people. His act was immoral.

Biblegod , according to the Bible, is responsible for much more deaths than that but was moral.

You're an idiot. You're religion is idiotic, and if your god actually existed it'd be a criminal according to the general worldview of what is moral.

-Nam

Is name calling really the best way forward?

For idiots like you -- sure is.

If what Biblegod  did in the Bible was moral to an idiot like you then what Hitler did was moral to an idiot like you.

You can't say (if you are) that one mass murderer is moral and all the rest were immoral. Either they all were moral or they all were immoral. You can't have it your warped idiotic way.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #266 on: October 02, 2013, 03:50:10 PM »
However, if you could cure the rabies and show up and teach the dog when it is doing wrong, then killing it is still an immoral act.
Furthermore, think about the story, do you not consider that there would be children under the age of ten? Under 5? Under a month old?
What did the one month olds do to warrant their deaths by drowning?
That is a good point. I never really thought of it that way before. I suppose you're right: God could have "cured" the world of evil prior to flooding it by showing up and teaching it what it was doing wrong. But I would suggest that the world wouldn't have listened. After all, Jesus showed up to teach the world what it was doing wrong, and we all know how that turned out. In any event, this goes back to the reason I chose my user name: I don't know why God does certain things and decides not to do certain other things. But I nonetheless believe that he is omniscient and omnipotent (though not all-loving, as I've posted elsewhere, because there is no Biblical support for that).

For idiots like you -- sure is.
If what Biblegod  did in the Bible was moral to an idiot like you then what Hitler did was moral to an idiot like you.
I would be happy to reply to you substantively if you kindly retract your insult. I am not asking you to do so because I can't handle it: I can. It's just bad form. I would be a little surprised if others on this site didn't agree with me on this point.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #267 on: October 02, 2013, 03:53:33 PM »
. According to the story, the earth was completely evil at that time. Kind of like putting a rabid dog to sleep. Ordinarily, yeah, it's mean and wrong to kill a dog. But if it's endangering others, then it should be done.

However, if you could cure the rabies and show up and teach the dog when it is doing wrong, then killing it is still an immoral act.

Furthermore, think about the story, do you not consider that there would be children under the age of ten? Under 5? Under a month old?

What did the one month olds do to warrant their deaths by drowning?

What did the unborn babies do?  What did the animals do?  You said the earth was completely evil (bold above) whatever that means.  What did the plants, trees, bacteria, etc. do to piss off YHWH?  Your god is the very definition of an immoral and childish buffoon who went on smashing and killing rampages.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #268 on: October 02, 2013, 03:56:44 PM »
I'm not saying might makes right. Right makes right.

But right "the problem is that justice is just as malleable a concept as morality. "  I took that to mean justice is not an absolute, carved in stone, black and white thing.  It is subjective.  And because that is so, there is no Right.  yhwh's idea of right is just as arbitrary as anyone's. 

Did I misunderstand your original statement?

Our notions of right often are at odds with God's notions of right.

That is unpossible.  We were given the divine power of Moral Knowledge when Eve and her slow witted mate ate the fruit from the tree thereof.  Even yhwh admitted it.  In fact, he seemed quite freaked out by it.  He was especially panicked by the thought of them also gaining immortality.

He's the ultimate arbiter, not us.

Why? 

How could it be us?

Setting aside the facts that there is no one else to arbitrate and gods and moral absolutes do not exist, I would say, speaking your language, because we have the divine power of Moral Knowledge.

There are thousands of different worldviews out there with differing versions of morality.

Curiously, all of them claim to have some divine source or authorization.  And still, all different...

Why is one the right morality to the exclusion of others?

Who said there was?

Either there is no absolute morality or only God's morality is perfect.

There is no absolute morality.  Where do I pick up my prize?  And that is a non sequitur.  It does not logically follow.  There could be absolute morality and god's could be different and non-perfect.

If there is no absolute morality, then any talk of right or good or better is silly, as none of those terms can be true in any given situation.

Correct in that talk of right or good is silly.  Those are judgments.  They reflect a perspective.   They are terms the adults use for children.  Morals are the rules that allow people to function together as groups. 
 

Your next post, which appeared whilst I typed, was pretty bad.  perhaps I'll address it later.
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Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #269 on: October 02, 2013, 04:02:22 PM »
What did the unborn babies do?  What did the animals do?  You said the earth was completely evil (bold above) whatever that means.  What did the plants, trees, bacteria, etc. do to piss off YHWH?  Your god is the very definition of an immoral and childish buffoon who went on smashing and killing rampages.

I apologize for not addressing that point in my previous post. You are mostly correct: the unborn babies and animals seemingly did nothing worthy of death as far as we can tell. As for the types of evil prevalent immediately before the flood, we weren't there, so we can't know firsthand exactly all that it entailed. But apparently it was really awful, so bad that God wanted to start all over again. (As for the plants, trees, bacteria, etc, it does not appear that they perished, so that appears to be a moot point.)

It is likely that if you or I were in God's position, we would have done things differently, is that fair to say we agree on? But we don't have the benefit of omniscience. It's God's creation, and if he wants to hit a reset button, he's entitled to do that. He made it all, and he knows all the intricacies and alternate realities that could have arisen if he didn't send the flood. I trust his wisdom and judgment to be just and right in the grand scheme of things, even if we don't understand it yet.
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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #270 on: October 02, 2013, 04:15:10 PM »
Nonsense.

Why doesn't Biblegod  just wipe us all out now? No need for flooding, can just take away our oxygen, or give massive earthquakes, or make all the nuclear bombs go off accidentally.

Are you saying that we're less evil today than a few million people thousands of years ago?

Look in the mirror and say, "I am an idiot for believing in this complete nonsense.".

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #271 on: October 02, 2013, 04:17:41 PM »
But right "the problem is that justice is just as malleable a concept as morality. "  I took that to mean justice is not an absolute, carved in stone, black and white thing.  It is subjective.  And because that is so, there is no Right.  yhwh's idea of right is just as arbitrary as anyone's. 
...
That is unpossible.  We were given the divine power of Moral Knowledge when Eve and her slow witted mate ate the fruit from the tree thereof.  Even yhwh admitted it.  In fact, he seemed quite freaked out by it.  He was especially panicked by the thought of them also gaining immortality.
...
Curiously, all of them claim to have some divine source or authorization.  And still, all different...
...
There is no absolute morality.  Where do I pick up my prize?  And that is a non sequitur.  It does not logically follow.  There could be absolute morality and god's could be different and non-perfect.
...

Justice and morality according to God and according to man are going to butt heads. What you consider just and moral is likely different than your neighbor's and your cousin's and your barber's considerations on the same issues. So, if it's subjective, why does it matter? We might as well all be libertarians espousing the non-aggression principle if justice and morality are subjective. (Actually, I really am a libertarian too.)

Props for making me chuckle by calling Adam Eve's slow witted mate lol. I've never heard that one before. But in any event, I do not think the Biblical story can be construed at all as God panicking at the thought of Adam and Eve being immortal. He created them immortal. They never would have died if they didn't eat the forbidden fruit. God never intended Adam and Eve to die. They ushered in death for all of mankind by exercising their free will.

God is the arbiter if he's the one who created the earth, mankind, and the universe. It's all his, so he decides what's just and moral.

All worldviews have a divine source or authorization? That's news to me. It seems like most posters on this site, for example, have worldviews that don't have divine claims.

Again, if there is more than one valid morality, then neither set is a valid morality at all if they conflict in any area. The same act cannot be both entirely moral and entirely immoral at the same time. So subjective morality makes no sense or, at best, is a semantic argument.
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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #272 on: October 02, 2013, 04:19:35 PM »
Nonsense.

Why doesn't Biblegod  just wipe us all out now? No need for flooding, can just take away our oxygen, or give massive earthquakes, or make all the nuclear bombs go off accidentally.

Are you saying that we're less evil today than a few million people thousands of years ago?

Look in the mirror and say, "I am an idiot for believing in this complete nonsense.".

-Nam

Again, I will happily respond to you in substance if you retract your now recurring insult. It is petty and accomplishes nothing. Indeed, it weakens any argument you make by its childishness.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #273 on: October 02, 2013, 04:19:50 PM »
Quote
I apologize for not addressing that point in my previous post. You are mostly correct: the unborn babies and animals seemingly did nothing worthy of death as far as we can tell. As for the types of evil prevalent immediately before the flood, we weren't there, so we can't know firsthand exactly all that it entailed.

They seemingly did nothing worthy of death? Ummm. yeah!  I don't follow your logic there - aside from you possibly injecting the preposterous biblical notion of original sin.

Quote
(As for the plants, trees, bacteria, etc, it does not appear that they perished, so that appears to be a moot point.)

I'm no biologist/ botanist/ apologist, nor do I play one on TV, but I doubt plants being submerged for months on end in hundreds of feet of water let them live.  I watered my cactus too often and it died - my garden was crap this year becasue of all the rain we had.  As for bacteria - I was pretty sure all living things perished... according to your book.  The hookworms, fleas, lice, etc - well, I guess Noah and his family had to each pick a few to infest themsleves with.

Quote
It is likely that if you or I were in God's position, we would have done things differently, is that fair to say we agree on? But we don't have the benefit of omniscience.

Damn right, I'd do (have done) things differently.  For one, I wouldn't spend my days playing hide and seek with my peeps.  There are entire threads here about what a better deity would look like and frankly, I'd pick a random long-term WWGHA member over YHWH any day if we had a deity for a day raffle. 

Quote
I trust his wisdom and judgment to be just and right in the grand scheme of things, even if we don't understand it yet.

Problem is, I do understand his wisdom and judgment and they suck, to use the Latin...  If we don't understand something as big as his justice, then it's his problem... not ours after all these years.  YHWH sounds suspiciously like a tyrannical king - a lot like bible authors would have been quite familiar with when they gathered at the local Canaanite Starbucks to start putting this tale to parchment.
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Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #274 on: October 02, 2013, 04:30:09 PM »
They seemingly did nothing worthy of death? Ummm. yeah!  I don't follow your logic there - aside from you possibly injecting the preposterous biblical notion of original sin.

I'm no biologist/ botanist/ apologist, nor do I play one on TV, but I doubt plants being submerged for months on end in hundreds of feet of water let them live.  I watered my cactus too often and it died - my garden was crap this year becasue of all the rain we had.  As for bacteria - I was pretty sure all living things perished... according to your book.  The hookworms, fleas, lice, etc - well, I guess Noah and his family had to each pick a few to infest themsleves with.

Damn right, I'd do (have done) things differently.  For one, I wouldn't spend my days playing hide and seek with my peeps.  There are entire threads here about what a better deity would look like and frankly, I'd pick a random long-term WWGHA member over YHWH any day if we had a deity for a day raffle. 

Problem is, I do understand his wisdom and judgment and they suck, to use the Latin...  If we don't understand something as big as his justice, then it's his problem... not ours after all these years.  YHWH sounds suspiciously like a tyrannical king - a lot like bible authors would have been quite familiar with when they gathered at the local Canaanite Starbucks to start putting this tale to parchment.

I thought I posted it in this thread too. Maybe I didn't, or maybe you missed it. But a major point of mine is that God's omniscience enabled him to know and foresee what those babies would grow up to do. If the world was indeed wholly evil except for Noah and his family, then it follows that those babies would have grown up and continued the evil of their parents. The flood prevented alternate realities that likely would have been worse than the one that happened with/after the flood.

I'll reread the flood account momentarily, but going from memory I think only the people and air-breathing animals that weren't on the ark died, not the plants, bacteria, or fish. If your argument is we can't know how God might have preserved the plants underwater for 40 days and nights, well just look at my user name again: I don't know how God might have done it. It doesn't concern or worry me how he might have done it. If he created the universe, including all the plants on the earth in the first place, it would be no hard task at all to preserve them underwater for 40 days.

That's nice if you'd do things differently. Everyone would do things differently. Again, your cousin and your barber would do things differently from you too, regardless of whether they're athiests or Christians, if they were in God's shoes. But God is God, and we're not. This is his creation, and he's entitled to do with it what he wishes. If we don't like it, it's usually because we have an improper perspective, again lacking omniscience for one thing.

Your disagreement with his wisdom, judgment, and justice is nothing new. A tyrant would never give his creation free will.
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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #275 on: October 02, 2013, 04:32:52 PM »
Nonsense.

Why doesn't Biblegod  just wipe us all out now? No need for flooding, can just take away our oxygen, or give massive earthquakes, or make all the nuclear bombs go off accidentally.

Are you saying that we're less evil today than a few million people thousands of years ago?

Look in the mirror and say, "I am an idiot for believing in this complete nonsense.".

-Nam

Again, I will happily respond to you in substance if you retract your now recurring insult. It is petty and accomplishes nothing. Indeed, it weakens any argument you make by its childishness.

I retract nothing. I say what's on my mind. Don't like it, I don't care.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline neopagan

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #276 on: October 02, 2013, 04:47:22 PM »
Quote
I thought I posted it in this thread too. Maybe I didn't, or maybe you missed it. But a major point of mine is that God's omniscience enabled him to know and foresee what those babies would grow up to do.

I've heard it before - from xians on this site and also from Hitler and other genocidal maniacs.

Quote
The flood prevented alternate realities that likely would have been worse than the one that happened with/after the flood.

I think you made that up...  As Nam said, xians today are convinced the world is the worst it has ever been... I mean, homosexuals can marry!

Quote
If your argument is we can't know how God might have preserved the plants underwater for 40 days and nights, well just look at my user name again: I don't know how God might have done it.
...snip..
it would be no hard task at all to preserve them underwater for 40 days.

I was not speculating on how he could preserve them.  Besides, it only rained 40 days and nights.  It allegedly was 150 days from start of rain until the smelly crew hopped off the ark.  We still cannot find all that water, btw.

Quote
That's nice if you'd do things differently. Everyone would do things differently. Again, your cousin and your barber would do things differently from you too, regardless of whether they're athiests or Christians, if they were in God's shoes. But God is God, and we're not.

I don't doubt my cousin, barber, or a WWGHA member would do things differently.  I could care less if they made trees have leaves like I would, or if they had whale genitalia hanging from their branches.  However, I'd trust any of them to generally look out for the best interests of humanity and try to alleviate human suffering and show obvious kindness - not to be a murderous, hide and seek monster like YHWH.

Quote
Your disagreement with his wisdom, judgment, and justice is nothing new. A tyrant would never give his creation free will.

Disagree... YHWH is a tyrant who supposedly gave his creation free will and then punishes the hell out of them for using it (see A and E).
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 04:49:21 PM by neopagan »
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Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #277 on: October 02, 2013, 05:04:20 PM »
I retract nothing. I say what's on my mind. Don't like it, I don't care.
You likely have a filter for that mind when you deal with people in person. Unless you have Tourette's. I encourage you to use the same type of etiquette here.

...
I think you made that up...  As Nam said, xians today are convinced the world is the worst it has ever been... I mean, homosexuals can marry!
...
I was not speculating on how he could preserve them.  Besides, it only rained 40 days and nights.  It allegedly was 150 days from start of rain until the smelly crew hopped off the ark.  We still cannot find all that water, btw.

I don't doubt my cousin, barber, or a WWGHA member would do things differently.  I could care less if they made trees have leaves like I would, or if they had whale genitalia hanging from their branches.  However, I'd trust any of them to generally look out for the best interests of humanity and try to alleviate human suffering and show obvious kindness - not to be a murderous, hide and seek monster like YHWH.

Disagree... YHWH is a tyrant who supposedly gave his creation free will and then punishes the hell out of them for using it (see A and E).
I don't think I made it up. And I don't think Christians today are convinced the world is the worst it has ever been. In fact, I don't know a single Christian in my life who thinks that. Of course, I don't know all Christians. But that is definitely not the sense I get at church at all or in any of my other dealings with Christians. (Note that this is not the same thing as Christians thinking the world is worse than it was in the 1950s, for example.)

I apologize for putting words in your mouth on the issue of how God might have preserved the plants underwater. And I apologize for my error in the length of time they would have been underwater after the rain stopped falling (but it would have been just as easy for him to preserve them for 150 days as for 40 days if he can create the universe, after all, and he could have done anything with the water just as easily).

When it comes to looking out for the best interests of humanity, the whole Gospel is just that. Jesus paid the price for all mankind so that we can live forever in heaven simply by believing it. That's the big picture, and there could be nothing more important to humanity than that if it's true. You're focusing on this life and this planet. That's too short a time span.

On your last point, are you saying that the free will was not free at all? Or do you just not like what human beings have done with it?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #278 on: October 02, 2013, 05:16:46 PM »
He's the ultimate arbiter, not us. ...

By what authority are you able to assign God this role?  Doing so makes you the ultimate arbiter.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #279 on: October 02, 2013, 05:21:12 PM »

On your last point, are you saying that the free will was not free at all? Or do you just not like what human beings have done with it?

I am syaing you are the one who said YHWH killed off an entire planet, including unborn children and now tout the free will he gave out.  Maybe you should define what you mean by free will.  I don't see it as "love me or die" any more than I see a rapist giving you free will to either submit quietly to the rape or be killed first before he does his deed.
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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #280 on: October 02, 2013, 05:25:51 PM »
By what authority are you able to assign God this role?  Doing so makes you the ultimate arbiter.

If he created the universe, I've assigned him nothing. It naturally follows that he's in charge and can do as he pleases. If he doesn't exist, I've still assigned him nothing, because a nonentity can't do anything anyway.
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Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #281 on: October 02, 2013, 05:28:59 PM »
I am saying you are the one who said YHWH killed off an entire planet, including unborn children and now tout the free will he gave out.  Maybe you should define what you mean by free will.  I don't see it as "love me or die" any more than I see a rapist giving you free will to either submit quietly to the rape or be killed first before he does his deed.

God gave Adam and Eve the freedom to decide for themselves whether to refrain from eating the forbidden fruit or whether to eat it in spite of his warnings not to. They chose to eat it. If God didn't give them any meaningful choice, that is, if he permitted them to eat or do anything they wanted with no consequences then that would be a situation of false free will. Without consequences and meaningful choice, there is no real free will, because it simply wouldn't have mattered what they chose to do.
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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #282 on: October 02, 2013, 05:30:57 PM »
One simple question, IDK. Was the bible flood a real, material, global, lots of water and drowned people flood? Or was the bible flood a metaphor, legend, local event that people exaggerated, story-of-Gilgamesh kinda thing?

Because if you truly think that there was a magical flood that killed all humans except one family that survived sealed up with thousands of wild animals on a wooden boat--but that left no physical evidence of ever having happened-- well then we are dealing with a level of credulity that is hard to imagine in the 21st century.

It is best not to try to explain how one family managed to get thousands of animals from across oceans to one location, keep them alive for more than a few days, deal with the water and sanitation issues, return all the animals to their proper habitats while surviving the horrible disease vector that the planet would have become with all the rotting bodies. Just say it was magic, and try not to wonder why god did not just get rid of the evil by magic instead of all the primitive rigamarole of boats, animals and floods.

Besides the scientific and practical impossibility of such a story being real, there is the repellent idea of inflicting massive unnecessary suffering. Yes, I am making a judgement that to drown entire families-- to torture babies, the elderly, pregnant women, toddlers--  repellent.

And so do you, because you could not bring yourself to do it. You are a better person than the god you worship. You can only stomach the idea by making the people into non-humans, evil demons who do not deserve to live. Because that is what Dear Leader said. Kinda like what all dictators do when they want to massacre people.

If god wanted to get rid of people he could just vaporize them painlessly into their next life. Or have the parents of the future evil people never meet in the first place, so they would not ever be born. Or reboot the entire planet with all new non-evil people. Or......use your imagination. But flood the planet and drown all the animals and people? Were even the kittens and baby panda bears evil?

The rabid dog analogy only holds if, instead of killing the dog as quickly and as painlessly as you can, you slowly torture all the planet's dogs to death over several hours, along with their puppies. Because you know that all puppies might become rabid in the future, and you don't want to just give them rabies vaccinations or something like that...way too easy. &)

 
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #283 on: October 02, 2013, 05:32:21 PM »
I retract nothing. I say what's on my mind. Don't like it, I don't care.
You likely have a filter for that mind when you deal with people in person. Unless you have Tourette's. I encourage you to use the same type of etiquette here.

I do. I have it for online. I don't use it in either venue. I say what's on my mind on purpose, mainly because it pisses people off (which I enjoy), and it gets what they really want to say out. Very effective tool.

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #284 on: October 02, 2013, 06:09:08 PM »
I do. I have it for online. I don't use it in either venue. I say what's on my mind on purpose, mainly because it pisses people off (which I enjoy), and it gets what they really want to say out. Very effective tool.
It seems much more likely that you're just annoying people.

One simple question, IDK. Was the bible flood a real, material, global, lots of water and drowned people flood?
Yes.

It is best not to try to explain how...Just say it was magic, and try not to wonder why...
I'm not worried about the how or the why. If it's the same God who created the universe out of nothing, putting some animals on a boat is, well, child's play by comparison to that. Of course, when an omnipotent actor does anything, it's child's play, since he's omnipotent.

Besides the scientific and practical impossibility of such a story being real, there is the repellent idea of inflicting massive unnecessary suffering. Yes, I am making a judgement that to drown entire families-- to torture babies, the elderly, pregnant women, toddlers--  repellent.
You say it was unnecessary. God seems to disagree.

And so do you, because you could not bring yourself to do it. You are a better person than the god you worship. You can only stomach the idea by making the people into non-humans, evil demons who do not deserve to live. Because that is what Dear Leader said. Kinda like what all dictators do when they want to massacre people.
I've done nothing of the sort. I admit I probably would not have done it that way, but I'm not God, and I'm not omniscient. But I've done nothing of the sort with respect to dehumanizing those who died. They were all people, just like you and me. Whether they deserved to live was God's call, since humankind is his creation after all.

If god wanted to get rid of people he could just vaporize them painlessly into their next life. Or have the parents of the future evil people never meet in the first place, so they would not ever be born. Or reboot the entire planet with all new non-evil people. Or......use your imagination. But flood the planet and drown all the animals and people? Were even the kittens and baby panda bears evil?
Yeah, God could have done it a million different ways. But he chose that way. And that was his call. It was his creation after all. And the flood was a reboot with non-evil people: Noah and his family. I don't know why all the air-breathing animals had to die too (except the ones on the ark). You'd have to ask God that, not me.

The rabid dog analogy only holds if, instead of killing the dog as quickly and as painlessly as you can, you slowly torture all the planet's dogs to death over several hours, along with their puppies. Because you know that all puppies might become rabid in the future, and you don't want to just give them rabies vaccinations or something like that...way too easy. &)
Quick, painless, and slow are all relative. It's over and done with now, isn't it? Drowning probably took a few minutes. Seems not too bad for pure evil. In any event, God didn't exempt himself from physical pain and suffering: Jesus - God in human form - suffered incredible pain during the flogging and crucifixion. Why? What purpose did it serve? Couldn't he have deadened his nerves to die relatively peacefully as he hanged there for the sins of all humanity? Couldn't he have chosen a quicker, easier way to die than crucifixion in the first place? Sure, he could have. But he didn't.
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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #285 on: October 02, 2013, 07:50:17 PM »
Quote from: idontknowshit
It seems much more likely that you're just annoying people.

If that were true of all people, on this website, I wouldn't have as many comments as I have nor as much +1 in karma either. Don't get me wrong, many here probably agree with you--hell, I could point some of them out myself but just like me: they have methods that work for them, and I have a method that works for me. And it does work.

See, they probably have the same opinion of you as I do but they're holding it back not to be nice but to drag the conversation out. Most of them know you're most likely a Poe or a Fundy, or a Cafeteria Christian, but they like to draw things out, and sometimes I do too but you're just all kinds of idiotic and though it would may be fun to draw it out with you I just can't because you're adding a definition, your definition, to a word that actually has no meaning to you, at all, but to make you feel good about the actions of your god, in your religion. So, to "drag" anything out with you would be pointless. To get you, by my method, to say what you're holding back seems to be better. And you are holding back, and if you stay here: I will get it out of you.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #286 on: October 02, 2013, 08:10:54 PM »
By what authority are you able to assign God this role?  Doing so makes you the ultimate arbiter.

If he created the universe, I've assigned him nothing. It naturally follows that he's in charge and can do as he pleases. If he doesn't exist, I've still assigned him nothing, because a nonentity can't do anything anyway.

So you are saying might makes right. That is a morally horrible position in my position. As to the creator doing with his creation as he please, that would mean a father would be justified in slowly submerging his son in acid.

After all, his creation.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #287 on: October 02, 2013, 08:32:25 PM »
But a major point of mine is that God's omniscience enabled him to know and foresee what those babies would grow up to do.

Yet said foreknowledge could have easily been used to know exactly what was needed to not to have to kill them, but it wasn't used.

You see when you are the creator and have omniscience...there is no freewill.

Your faerie tale is full of holes. We know it is, you are just too simple minded to understand how full of holes it is.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #288 on: October 02, 2013, 08:56:19 PM »
If that were true of all people, on this website, I wouldn't have as many comments as I have nor as much +1 in karma either. Don't get me wrong, many here probably agree with you--hell, I could point some of them out myself but just like me: they have methods that work for them, and I have a method that works for me. And it does work.
You really think you're doing a public service or something, don't you? Lol. How about a cookie?

See, they probably have the same opinion of you as I do but they're holding it back not to be nice but to drag the conversation out. Most of them know you're most likely a Poe or a Fundy, or a Cafeteria Christian, but they like to draw things out, and sometimes I do too but you're just all kinds of idiotic and though it would may be fun to draw it out with you I just can't because you're adding a definition, your definition, to a word that actually has no meaning to you, at all, but to make you feel good about the actions of your god, in your religion. So, to "drag" anything out with you would be pointless. To get you, by my method, to say what you're holding back seems to be better. And you are holding back, and if you stay here: I will get it out of you.
Quite a lot of arrogant and/or ignorant assumptions in that nearly nonsensical rambling. It's absolutely no different than if you were to go on some evangelical forum, and someone there were to call you idiotic based on differences in beliefs and purport to justify such incivility by claiming everyone else is thinking the same thing. It would really behoove you to think before you speak/type instead of just blurting out the first thing that pops into that mind of yours. I find it particularly sad that you apparently get a kick out of insulting other people. Were you a bully in school or something? Or maybe no one ever taught you better? Unlikely. You should know better. Very pathetic indeed.
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Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #289 on: October 02, 2013, 08:56:46 PM »

God gave Adam and Eve the freedom to decide for themselves whether to refrain from eating the forbidden fruit or whether to eat it in spite of his warnings not to. They chose to eat it. If God didn't give them any meaningful choice, that is, if he permitted them to eat or do anything they wanted with no consequences then that would be a situation of false free will. Without consequences and meaningful choice, there is no real free will, because it simply wouldn't have mattered what they chose to do.

But that's all part of the setup isn't it? The 'God' (thing) you believe in planned for 'Adam and Eve' to 'fall' (i.e. - make the wrong choice) so he could 'carry out his will' (Romans 9) by (supposedly) creating every being as inherently evil (fallen sinners who won't choose God - Romans 3) so he could come down and sacrifice himself, to himself, to act as a loophole (for his elect) for a rule he created in the first place - pure fictional nonsense like the other religions. This theology is inherently flawed. Did Adam and Eve know good from evil (right from wrong) prior to the fall? The bible says they did not. Prior to them eating from "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" they could not have known that it was wrong to "disobey" b/c they had no knowledge of it. This is a blatant contradiction in your theology. In order for A&E to have "fallen" they had to have knowledge that they were sinning/doing wrong, but they did not (according to your bible). So this entire thing completely crumbles when reason is applied (just like every other religion crumbles just the same).

Now, the freewill debate is an entirely different subject but what kind of freewill are you arguing for when your Yahweh (thing) is supposedly sovereign over all "creation"? Does anything happen that does not go according to God's divine plan (according to your theology)? Who resists his will? Does the clay tell the potter what to do (para Romans 9)?[1] The freewill argument really doesn't do anything at all to solve this umpteenth theological problem.
 1. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+9&version=KJV
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 09:01:38 PM by median »
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