Author Topic: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...  (Read 16627 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #232 on: August 13, 2013, 01:22:06 PM »
I am positive that God changes the world through the actions of people who are "tuned in" to His desires. 

And some young children are positive that their invisible friend 'Fred' is real. You need to provide actual evidence, not just a faulty interpretation based upon as assumption of divinity.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #233 on: August 13, 2013, 11:51:39 PM »
And some young children are positive that their invisible friend 'Fred' is real. You need to provide actual evidence, not just a faulty interpretation based upon as assumption of divinity.

Naturally you'll need to describe the characteristics of such evidence you would except.
How about people who would die for what they believed?   

Who would die for a lie?

"Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth. If the Resurrection had not happened, obviously the disciples would have known it. Therefore, they would not only have died for a lie—here’s the catch—but they would have known it was a lie. It would be hard to find a group of men anywhere in history who would die for a lie if they knew it was a lie."
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fjmm.us%2FPDFs-Downloadable%2FEaster%2BArticles%2B-%2BWho%2BWould%2Bdie%2Bfor%2Ba%2Blie.pdf

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #234 on: August 14, 2013, 12:01:16 AM »
We are a resilient and adaptable species, like cockroaches.

No scientist anywhere has ever made that claim.  Not even now.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #235 on: August 14, 2013, 12:07:07 AM »
There does seem to be that trap for Christian religious people who say that god is both powerful and good-- the pesky problem of evil. If people are free to do good or bad things, where does god come in?

He only works in His realm, Spirit.  Jesus did walk among us for a time, then left.
God only works in the Spirit world.   Native americans did have a concept of one
and the same and they could ask that question.  But you don't indicate that your
of their background.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #236 on: August 14, 2013, 12:11:03 AM »
That seems to contradict what you've been saying previously - that the world will always turn out a particular way because that's the way your god wants it.

I've indicated that the future is already done and over with from God's perspective.
That's quite different from what you remember me saying. 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #237 on: August 14, 2013, 10:33:06 AM »
God (or whatever it is that people who believe in god refer to when they say god)[1] changes the world through earthquakes, volcanoes, wildfires, hurricanes, tornadoes, blizzards, floods, droughts and avalanches. People, plants and animals are just in the way.

Unless god is using people to produce global climate change, I don't see what humans have to do with it....
 1. like "the artist formerly known as Prince"
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #238 on: August 14, 2013, 11:44:01 AM »
And some young children are positive that their invisible friend 'Fred' is real. You need to provide actual evidence, not just a faulty interpretation based upon as assumption of divinity.

Naturally you'll need to describe the characteristics of such evidence you would except.
How about people who would die for what they believed?   

Who would die for a lie?

"Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth. If the Resurrection had not happened, obviously the disciples would have known it. Therefore, they would not only have died for a lie—here’s the catch—but they would have known it was a lie. It would be hard to find a group of men anywhere in history who would die for a lie if they knew it was a lie."
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fjmm.us%2FPDFs-Downloadable%2FEaster%2BArticles%2B-%2BWho%2BWould%2Bdie%2Bfor%2Ba%2Blie.pdf

Josh Mcdowell's argument? Really?

You apologists just love your credulity. You say things like "the disciples" this or "the disciples" that, as if everyone around you is willing to enter into your same gullibility regarding what happened with them or what took place 2000+ years ago. It's absurd. You don't know what the disciples "would have known". You merely assume. What you have is yet another assumption based upon your other assumptions that what you are reading in those pages is accurate. But you don't know they are accurate. You merely assume it - just like the Christians who came before you. That is your problem.
 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 11:52:44 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #239 on: August 14, 2013, 11:59:18 AM »

He only works in His realm, Spirit.  Jesus did walk among us for a time, then left.
God only works in the Spirit world.   Native americans did have a concept of one
and the same and they could ask that question.  But you don't indicate that your
of their background.

It astonishes me how you apologists are easily willing to sacrifice reason at the alter of your gullibility. So this "Spirit" didn't do any physical miracles back in the day? No burning bush? No raising the dead? It only "works in His spirit realm"? WOW.


"Just like the wizard of Oz. A bunch of show and nothing behind the curtain."
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online Aaron123

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #240 on: August 14, 2013, 01:20:45 PM »
Who would die for a lie?

"Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth. If the Resurrection had not happened, obviously the disciples would have known it. Therefore, they would not only have died for a lie—here’s the catch—but they would have known it was a lie. It would be hard to find a group of men anywhere in history who would die for a lie if they knew it was a lie."
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fjmm.us%2FPDFs-Downloadable%2FEaster%2BArticles%2B-%2BWho%2BWould%2Bdie%2Bfor%2Ba%2Blie.pdf

This assumes the disciples were real, historcial people.  Said disciples have never been confirmed to be real, historcial people.  Same with Jesus.

Using the characters in the bible is no different than using the characters in Star Wars to prove that Star Wars is a historcial document.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #241 on: August 14, 2013, 02:46:10 PM »
Of course Darth Vader was real.  Whom else would Obi Wan have dueled on the Death Star?  Ane we have Luke as evidence that there really had been Anakin Skywalker.  What, are we to believe Luke did not have a father?  Sheesh. 
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #242 on: August 14, 2013, 04:45:07 PM »
We are a resilient and adaptable species, like cockroaches.

No scientist anywhere has ever made that claim.  Not even now.

What claim?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #243 on: August 15, 2013, 10:35:24 AM »
And some young children are positive that their invisible friend 'Fred' is real. You need to provide actual evidence, not just a faulty interpretation based upon as assumption of divinity.

Naturally you'll need to describe the characteristics of such evidence you would except.
How about people who would die for what they believed?   

Who would die for a lie?

"Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth. If the Resurrection had not happened, obviously the disciples would have known it. Therefore, they would not only have died for a lie—here’s the catch—but they would have known it was a lie. It would be hard to find a group of men anywhere in history who would die for a lie if they knew it was a lie."
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fjmm.us%2FPDFs-Downloadable%2FEaster%2BArticles%2B-%2BWho%2BWould%2Bdie%2Bfor%2Ba%2Blie.pdf

The most obvious answer to this[1] is the 9/11 hijackers.

you also have answerd the question in your qoute
Quote
Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth
 1. as you are not a follower of islam
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 10:43:33 AM by Mrjason »

Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #244 on: August 15, 2013, 11:23:45 AM »
Quote
...but they [the disciples] would have known it was a lie.

Oh? And how exactly did you come to this conclusion?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #245 on: August 15, 2013, 02:47:15 PM »
By the way, I've known about Pascal's Wager forever. I just didn't reference it as that. And I agree its a shallow argument but it sometimes helps people that can not think beyond the realms of logic and reason or physical rules and laws.

Yeah, you think outside the box. We don't. That box is called "reality"
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #246 on: August 15, 2013, 02:48:44 PM »
There does seem to be that trap for Christian religious people who say that god is both powerful and good-- the pesky problem of evil. If people are free to do good or bad things, where does god come in?

He only works in His realm, Spirit.

Or in other words; indistinguishable from any other brand of made of crap.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #247 on: August 15, 2013, 02:51:51 PM »
We are a resilient and adaptable species, like cockroaches.

No scientist anywhere has ever made that claim.  Not even now.

Actually they do. We've been listed as the 9th most sucessful macroscopic species in the history of Earth. Admittedly, Dinosaurs come in at #6.



An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #248 on: August 15, 2013, 04:48:32 PM »
We are a resilient and adaptable species, like cockroaches.

No scientist anywhere has ever made that claim.  Not even now.

Actually they do. We've been listed as the 9th most sucessful macroscopic species in the history of Earth. Admittedly, Dinosaurs come in at #6.

http://geopolicraticus.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/quantifying-biological-success/

Here is a site that lists criteria for figuring out what species is successful. We can't just say that humans are the top of the heap because we are cute and all. There has to be some way to evaluate "success". Now that I have some evidence, so I can say I was indeed making a claim. Before I was just pulling something out of you-know-where. Like a lot of our religious friends.

http://nfsfilms.weebly.com/top-10-successful-animals.html

On this list, humans come out just barely ahead of rodents. People and rats are the top two mammal species--yay! Right ahead of us on the list, dinosaurs were also extremely successful animals. It does not seem like god really made us all that special.

Including all life forms, grasses and conifers beat humans. Number one and two on the success list-- viruses and bacteria. Pesky buggers, constantly evolving resistance and quick to adapt to new environmental niches. God really loves viruses and bacteria. Also insects, spiders and crurotaursi, whatever the hell they are. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #249 on: August 15, 2013, 05:16:35 PM »
Including all life forms, grasses and conifers beat humans. Number one and two on the success list-- viruses and bacteria. Pesky buggers, constantly evolving resistance and quick to adapt to new environmental niches. God really loves viruses and bacteria. Also insects, spiders and crurotaursi, whatever the hell they are. :P
But hey, he loves humans eighth-most.  That's got to count for something.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #250 on: August 15, 2013, 05:25:30 PM »
crurotaursi

I looked it up. They are the precursors of modern birds and crocodiles. Learned me sumpin' new.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #251 on: August 15, 2013, 10:24:49 PM »
By the way, I've known about Pascal's Wager forever. I just didn't reference it as that. And I agree its a shallow argument but it sometimes helps people that can not think beyond the realms of logic and reason or physical rules and laws.

Since when was "thinking beyond logic and reason" a good thing? You seem to be saying that when your faith/belief contradicts logic then you have no problem siding with your belief. Why is that?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #252 on: August 16, 2013, 05:09:40 AM »
How about people who would die for what they believed?
   

Who would die for a lie?

"Yes, many people have died for a lie, but they did so believing it was the truth. If the Resurrection had not happened, obviously the disciples would have known it. Therefore, they would not only have died for a lie—here’s the catch—but they would have known it was a lie. It would be hard to find a group of men anywhere in history who would die for a lie if they knew it was a lie."

This is the weirdest piece of so-called logic I have seen in a long time. The terminally, religiously, deluded delight in martyrdom. I take it that you have heard of suicide bombers who believe they will inherit a number of virgins?

Take the example of yourself: you admit that there is no evidence for Jesus’s divinity in that there is no evidence for deities but nevertheless, and, irrationally, you are convinced of the truth of their being at least one god.

If there were a Jesus and if there were a resurrection, we can therefore dismiss everyone who was willing to die for a cause who was not present during that time. This leaves the disciples. Unfortunately, we do not know what they went around saying. We do not know that they preached the resurrection. We know very little of their lives after about 40AD: all we know is what the New Testament says that they said and did and the NT often contradicts known history.

I draw your attention to the Gospel of Mark. It has no reference to a virgin birth and it ends at 16:8 and is allegedly the most authoritative and from which other writers took their information and ideas. Mark does not include reference to the resurrection. Later writers added 9-20 to correct what they saw was an omission.

I also draw your attention to points that many other members and I have made to you:

1.   If anyone had risen from death by judicial execution, this would have been recorded by the Romans and also by the Jews.
2.   If, at the alleged crucifixion, there had been earthquakes, violent winds, and the dead rising from their graves, this would have been recorded by the Romans and also by the Jews.
3.   If there had been a man who walked on water, raised the dead, cured the sick, etc, do you not think that Christianity would have taken off in the area around where he did these things? Yet Judaism is alive and well and (if he were there at all, accurately) states Jesus was a minor prophet.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #253 on: August 16, 2013, 07:00:41 AM »
We are a resilient and adaptable species, like cockroaches.

No scientist anywhere has ever made that claim.  Not even now.

Actually they do. We've been listed as the 9th most sucessful macroscopic species in the history of Earth. Admittedly, Dinosaurs come in at #6.

http://geopolicraticus.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/quantifying-biological-success/

Here is a site that lists criteria for figuring out what species is successful. We can't just say that humans are the top of the heap because we are cute and all. There has to be some way to evaluate "success". Now that I have some evidence, so I can say I was indeed making a claim. Before I was just pulling something out of you-know-where. Like a lot of our religious friends.

http://nfsfilms.weebly.com/top-10-successful-animals.html

On this list, humans come out just barely ahead of rodents. People and rats are the top two mammal species--yay! Right ahead of us on the list, dinosaurs were also extremely successful animals. It does not seem like god really made us all that special.

Including all life forms, grasses and conifers beat humans. Number one and two on the success list-- viruses and bacteria. Pesky buggers, constantly evolving resistance and quick to adapt to new environmental niches. God really loves viruses and bacteria. Also insects, spiders and crurotaursi, whatever the hell they are. :P

Sure it varies according to criterion, and certainly if you add plants...human come nowhere near top ten. However, humans are, overall a very sucessful species for a macroscopic animal. They are neither "the worst" or "the most special/best," just "better than most." That's my point; nothing indicates some sort of unique place for humans at the top or the bottom of everything to indicate either a divine plan or ecological self loathing posed by the religious or the far left. No ideology, just science.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #254 on: August 23, 2013, 05:22:43 AM »
That seems to contradict what you've been saying previously - that the world will always turn out a particular way because that's the way your god wants it.

I've indicated that the future is already done and over with from God's perspective.
That's quite different from what you remember me saying.

Probably because your opinion changes depending on what particular apology you are concentrating on at the time.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #255 on: October 02, 2013, 02:29:50 AM »
George Smith takes another angle on it, calling it the Atheist's Wager.  Live your life as an atheist.  If god does not exist, it won't make any difference; if god exists, but is just, you have nothing to fear; and if god exists but is unjust, you have much to fear, but so does the Christian.

It's a quote from Marcus Aurelius:

"Live a good life.
If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by.
If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
I am not afraid."

Why would justice not care about devotion? Why should differing and conflicting values be judged based on sincerity? The problem is that justice is just as malleable a concept as morality. If there's a God then whatever he says is just is just, even if we disagree. So if we reject him, and he says it is just to be eternally separated from him in the afterlife based on our earthly rejection of him, then that is just because he says so and he's God. Disagreement or dissatisfaction therewith would not render justice injustice. What's this obsession with justice anyways? Why not mercy and grace?
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #256 on: October 02, 2013, 08:18:03 AM »
The problem is that justice is just as malleable a concept as morality. If there's a God then whatever he says is just is just, even if we disagree.

Your second sentence is negated by the first.

Your argument seems to be "might makes right."  Just because a being has the power to do something and we do not have the power to resist, does not make it just.  I can pull all the legs off a spider without killing it.  It cannot stop me.  Does that make it just?
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Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #257 on: October 02, 2013, 10:52:52 AM »

Why would justice not care about devotion? Why should differing and conflicting values be judged based on sincerity? The problem is that justice is just as malleable a concept as morality. If there's a God then whatever he says is just is just, even if we disagree. So if we reject him, and he says it is just to be eternally separated from him in the afterlife based on our earthly rejection of him, then that is just because he says so and he's God. Disagreement or dissatisfaction therewith would not render justice injustice. What's this obsession with justice anyways? Why not mercy and grace?

What you've just presented is one leg of The Euthyphro Dilemma.

The Euthyphro Dilemma:

"Is that which is good commanded by God because it's good, or is it good because God commands it?"[1]

1. If that which is good (or just) is commanded by God because it is good, then there is a standard of goodness/justice which is above God, and which God himself must adhere to, rendering God just the messenger of what is moral and not the standard.

2. If that which is good (or just) is such simply because God commands it then you have nothing but an arbitrary morality, a divine dictatorship (a cosmic Kim Jong IL), at which case nothing is truly moral or just because this dictator could change his mind at anytime (kind of like a mafia boss). If this option is true, how could you ever know (or judge correctly) that God's commands are good? HINT: The answer "b/c the bible tells me so" is not sufficient b/c there are lots of religious texts that say otherwise - nearly all of them are self contradictory - and no religious sects can agree on theology anyways.

Now if (like many Christians) you attempt to argue that there is a 3rd option (i.e. - that what is good/just represents "God's eternal unchanging nature" or something like that) you still haven't solved the problem. God's "nature" in the bible is often depicted as quite contrary to what is good. For example, is murder contrary to "God's nature"? The bible depicts God commanding, endorsing, and performing the termination of human lives all throughout the bible (aka - the Amalekites, the 42 young boys mauled by bears, women and children, etc). Is that moral?  Furthermore, this answer is circular. What standard are you using to determine that God is moral, just, good, etc? If you refer to the bible, then all you've done is appeal to...God (again). So saying "God is the standard of what is just" is no different from saying, "God is the standard of what is God".

I'm sorry to have you tell you this but this view has been falsified. It is irrational nonsense and it should be abandoned in exchange for better reasoning.
 1. http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Euthyphro_dilemma
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:01:20 AM by median »
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Offline idontknow

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #258 on: October 02, 2013, 01:17:09 PM »
Your second sentence is negated by the first.

Your argument seems to be "might makes right."  Just because a being has the power to do something and we do not have the power to resist, does not make it just.  I can pull all the legs off a spider without killing it.  It cannot stop me.  Does that make it just?

I'm not saying might makes right. Right makes right. Our notions of right often are at odds with God's notions of right. He's the ultimate arbiter, not us. How could it be us? There are thousands of different worldviews out there with differing versions of morality. Why is one the right morality to the exclusion of others? Either there is no absolute morality or only God's morality is perfect. If there is no absolute morality, then any talk of right or good or better is silly, as none of those terms can be true in any given situation.

What you've just presented is one leg of The Euthyphro Dilemma.
"Is that which is good commanded by God because it's good, or is it good because God commands it?" [citation omitted]

1. If that which is good (or just) is commanded by God because it is good, then there is a standard of goodness/justice which is above God, and which God himself must adhere to, rendering God just the messenger of what is moral and not the standard.

2. If that which is good (or just) is such simply because God commands it then you have nothing but an arbitrary morality, a divine dictatorship (a cosmic Kim Jong Il), at which case nothing is truly moral or just because this dictator could change his mind at anytime (kind of like a mafia boss). If this option is true, how could you ever know (or judge correctly) that God's commands are good? HINT: The answer "b/c the bible tells me so" is not sufficient b/c there are lots of religious texts that say otherwise - nearly all of them are self contradictory - and no religious sects can agree on theology anyways.

Now if (like many Christians) you attempt to argue that there is a 3rd option (i.e. - that what is good/just represents "God's eternal unchanging nature" or something like that) you still haven't solved the problem. God's "nature" in the bible is often depicted as quite contrary to what is good. For example, is murder contrary to "God's nature"? The bible depicts God commanding, endorsing, and performing the termination of human lives all throughout the bible (aka - the Amalekites, the 42 young boys mauled by bears, women and children, etc). Is that moral?  Furthermore, this answer is circular. What standard are you using to determine that God is moral, just, good, etc? If you refer to the bible, then all you've done is appeal to...God (again). So saying "God is the standard of what is just" is no different from saying, "God is the standard of what is God".

I'm sorry to have you tell you this but this view has been falsified. It is irrational nonsense and it should be abandoned in exchange for better reasoning.

False dichotomy. Morality is such not merely because God relays and commands it but because God himself is good and moral. As the creator of everything, his goodness went into his creation, and the original creation was perfect and not fallen. Since he gave both angels and mankind free will, however, and since many angels and all of mankind fell, this world does not exude the perfection and morality that God started it out with. Moreover, just because God could change his mind in the sense that it's within the realm of possibility doesn't mean he's going do. Indeed, he won't, because it is not in his nature. So the mafia boss analogy is, well, terrible.

Now when you claim that God's nature in the Bible is often contrary to morality, all you're doing is using your own standard for morality instead of someone else's. Millions of people probably agree with you, and millions of other people probably agree with me: either God's recorded acts in the Bible are moral or immoral, depending on which camp you're in. But why and how can either one of us be right?

Oh, you've got specific examples you want to discuss: God commanded people to die at various times in the Bible, and that can never be moral, right? Not necessarily. Wouldn't most of us, if we could go back in history and kill Hitler as a child, for example, do so, knowing what we know now that he'd grow up to do? Probably. Isn't it immoral to kill a child? It would seem so. But only a time traveler from the future would have the knowledge of what evil that child would bring into the world. If God is omniscient, he knows what evil the Amalekites, the 42 young boys, etc etc would bring into the world if they weren't permitted to continue living. That's harsh, but it's also reality. God could have been preventing much worse things from occurring via such judgments, which we simply don't know about because he prevented them from occurring.

In sum, you presume to know better/best. All it boils down to is you imposing your morality on God's conduct. If God is omniscient and infinitely wise, that's a silly endeavor by you, because we don't know all the other alternate realities that could have arisen.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #259 on: October 02, 2013, 02:59:35 PM »
Quote from: idontknow
There are thousands of different worldviews out there with differing versions of God. Why is one the right God to the exclusion of others? Either there is no absolute God or only morality is imperfect. If there is no absolute God, then any talk of right or good or better is silly, as none of those terms can be true in any given situation.

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A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #260 on: October 02, 2013, 03:12:00 PM »
IDK, if you truly believe what you said, then you must think that it is okay to kill a child by chopping off it's head if god says to do it. Not only okay, but a wonderful thing. So chopping off children's heads is wonderful when god says to do it. Chopping off children's heads is evil, of course, if god says not to do it. Therefore the act of chopping off children's heads is neither good nor bad, but relative to what god wants

Likewise with rape, slavery, genocide, torture, burning entire villages and starving the inhabitants. All a-okay if god says so. &)

This is the same kind of thinking that allowed the Crusades, the burning of witches, the massacre of native people all over the world. It is the same kind of thinking that allows the Taliban to cut off women's hands for wearing nail polish and to stone girls to death for talking to boys. It is the same kind of thinking that allows Saudi Arabia and Uganda to execute gay men.  >:(

You have just negated the idea of absolute morality, dude. I am not a philosopher and even I can see that.

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.