Author Topic: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...  (Read 15366 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #174 on: July 10, 2013, 09:32:06 PM »
Prediction/prophesy: SW will not respond clearly and directly. He will either give a very short non-answer, or give a very long and convoluted incomprehensible non-answer. If I am correct, bow down and worship your new holy messenger, high priestess nogodsforme. :D
I think you're wrong.

I'm beginning to suspect that SkyWriting is answering everyone's questions, AND with perfect wisdom.  It is merely a question of deciphering it - like, Bible Code style or somesuch.  But the answers...the answers are there.  We must start compiling his responses into some sort of book.  I got dibs on the 'Revelation' section.

That was always my favorite book when I had to "read the bible daily" as a JW kid. Funny how rarely people selected from Revelations for bible study discussion, the daily text or talks at the Kingdom Hall.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #175 on: July 11, 2013, 02:54:28 AM »
Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?
No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

What was that "never, no, not in a million years" then?

God cannot "Change" because He is not linear.  "never, no, not in a million years"

Right.

So then, if your god had decided that the best thing for Kiran was for hm to be hospitalised, then THAT was what was going to happen.  Never mind what Kiran thought, never mind how much he or anyone else prayed, your god wanted him in hospital, so that was what was inevitably going to happen.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #176 on: July 11, 2013, 05:31:55 AM »
DOES GOD CHANGE WHAT HE WILL DO IN RESPONSE TO PRAYER?

Thanks. I understand your anguish a bit better now. 

We live subjected to time.
God is not subjected to time.
the past, present, and future are all the same.
So I can't answer a question with "change" or "will do" or "response" in it
unless it's about a human point of view.
  With God, "Will do"  is exactly the same as ancient history. There is no "God will do".  He already did it from the beginning of time.


Did you read what you typed?  You said weeks before...now you're going 'like a day or week earlier'.  Maybe the "weeks before" was hyperbole or something, but it's getting hard to tell.

And that being a contradiction of your claim of "the micro-second I gave God complete control"...just dismissed or something?  Irrelevant?  Actually not a contradiction?

Yes, it is quite confusing.   
Our Father in Heaven set up this following chain of events in my "Time-line"

Week 1. He had a Farmer mow a "crop circle" in his field.
Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.
- He had me pray for help.
- He told me "That's enough prayer, now shut up and let me answer".
- I listened and dropped all my requests and just agreed to Let God handle it all.
- At that instant, the rain stopped, the place to pull off the road was visible, I got my wife and her wheelchair out of the van, the crop circle was dry and the sun came out and her misery was taken care of.

In retrospect there was only one miracle that day.  It was God's timing to let me know that He was there.  Nothing else was really unusual and it could have all happened anyway.  Except for the timing.

This same order of events has taken place several times with the same kind of results, every time.

So, he didn’t cause the farmer to mow the field?

I’m sure you have never bothered to work out the logic of what you said. To me it sounds the same as a schizophrenic talking[1]. You make statements as if “everyone knew and understood how these things work.” – this is exactly how schizophrenics think -> It may be “clear” to you but to any sane person reading it, it is lunacy.

Quote
God resides in a place the past, present, and future are all the same.
Quote
It was God's timing to let me know that He was there.

How can a god have timing if “the past, present, and future are all the same.”?

It is not “confusing” it is mental illness.

Quote
Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.
- He had me pray for help.
So your entire life is determined and you have no free will? But nevertheless, he will punish and reward you for things that He has decided you will do?

Quote
So I can't answer a question with "change" or "will do" or "response" in it

No, you can’t, can you? Does this not indicate that your conclusions must be wrong and illogical?

Please continue with your responses to Anfauglir’s post – I have rarely had such a fine view of a religious mind.
 1.  Along with other perceptual abnormalities, it has been noted by psychologists that schizophrenia patients have an altered sense of time. This was first described in psychology by Minkowski in 1927.[31] Many schizophrenic patients stop perceiving time as a flow of causally linked events. It has been suggested that there is a delay in time perception in schizophrenic patients compared to normal subjects.
These defects in time perception may play a part in the hallucinations and delusions experienced by schizophrenic patients according to some studies. Some researchers suggest that "abnormal timing judgment leads to a deficit in action attribution and action perception."[31] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_perception
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #177 on: July 11, 2013, 01:06:17 PM »
I'm seriously starting to think that SkyWriting never really thought about most of this stuff before people here started pressing him on it.  The way he responds strikes me as the kind of improvisation you get from a person who never spent a lot of time figuring out their arguments (and more importantly, getting someone to try to poke holes in them) and who has to suddenly start trying to do so on the fly.  That explains why his arguments are often contradictory, and why he has to keep correcting himself.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #178 on: July 11, 2013, 03:27:31 PM »
I'm seriously starting to think that SkyWriting never really thought about most of this stuff before people here started pressing him on it.  The way he responds strikes me as the kind of improvisation you get from a person who never spent a lot of time figuring out their arguments (and more importantly, getting someone to try to poke holes in them) and who has to suddenly start trying to do so on the fly.  That explains why his arguments are often contradictory, and why he has to keep correcting himself.

That's close.  I've never gone into such detail for anyone before this.
Christians have a fear of "faith healing" so they shy away from anything
like answered prayer. 

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #179 on: July 11, 2013, 03:32:17 PM »
No, you can’t, can you? Does this not indicate that your conclusions must be wrong and illogical?

God does not experience the passage of time but humans do. 
So the interface of the two will not be logical land "in order"
as humans would prefer.   Thanks, good analysis.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #180 on: July 11, 2013, 04:40:31 PM »
No, you can’t, can you? Does this not indicate that your conclusions must be wrong and illogical?

God does not experience the passage of time but humans do. 
So the interface of the two will not be logical land "in order"
as humans would prefer.   Thanks, good analysis.
So, god could communicate or "interface" in a logical manner with humans, but chooses not to. It sounds more and more like we are ants and god is a giant 7-year-old boy with a magnifying glass. Run!

And what is the point of praying, again? You are implying that god already knows everything that is going to happen, because for god, it has already happened.  We are pawns, with the illusion that we can change our futures by our present actions. But it has already been set in stone, long before we were born. Sounds kinda Hindu.

God knew, even before my friend was born, that she would be run over by a bus and lose both her legs at the age of 45. He knew she would lose her job, her husband would leave her, she would have to go on welfare and move in with her elderly mother.  He knew that most of their combined incomes would be spent on caring for her.  God knew that she would have constant pain and be in and out of the hospital for nasty infections. She and her mother will be dealing with her medical bills for the rest of their days.

If only she had prayed to god to give her the flu that day, and not gone to work, so he could have retroactively not had the bus run her over. Or something. Damn, this god guy sounds like a dick.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #181 on: July 11, 2013, 05:49:12 PM »
No, you can’t, can you? Does this not indicate that your conclusions must be wrong and illogical?

God does not experience the passage of time but humans do. 
So the interface of the two will not be logical land "in order"
as humans would prefer.   Thanks, good analysis.
So, god could communicate or "interface" in a logical manner with humans, but chooses not to. It sounds more and more like we are ants and god is a giant 7-year-old boy with a magnifying glass. Run!

And what is the point of praying, again? You are implying that god already knows everything that is going to happen, because for god, it has already happened.  We are pawns, with the illusion that we can change our futures by our present actions. But it has already been set in stone, long before we were born. Sounds kinda Hindu.

God knew, even before my friend was born, that she would be run over by a bus and lose both her legs at the age of 45. He knew she would lose her job, her husband would leave her, she would have to go on welfare and move in with her elderly mother.  He knew that most of their combined incomes would be spent on caring for her.  God knew that she would have constant pain and be in and out of the hospital for nasty infections. She and her mother will be dealing with her medical bills for the rest of their days.

If only she had prayed to god to give her the flu that day, and not gone to work, so he could have retroactively not had the bus run her over. Or something. Damn, this god guy sounds like a dick.

You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #182 on: July 11, 2013, 06:25:53 PM »
You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.
I know the first thing I do when I want someone's attention is to hurt their loved ones.

Though sometimes I'll send a text message.  I get lazy sometimes.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #183 on: July 11, 2013, 06:43:59 PM »
I almost threw up-- the idea that I should love anyone who would severely disable my friend, and ruin her life in nearly every way.....just to "get my attention". If there was a god and he really did that kind of sh!t, Satan would be the least of his worries. I would be really pious and pretend to believe, just to get into heaven, and then kick his holy a$$ six ways from Sunday. &)

Get my attention? Hell yeah! Worship him? I don't think so. >:(

Is god the ultimate stalker ex-boyfriend now, setting fire to my home and shooting my dog, "to get my attention"? God as Son of Sam.... :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #184 on: July 12, 2013, 03:51:22 AM »

"Material stuff" or doing what they want is NOT a top priority.  Your relationship / time is the top priority. God did those things as part of our conversation.

Why do you keep claiming to know what God did or didn't do? Please demonstrate how you 'know' these things - b/c as it seems right now, you're just pulling crap out of your ass.



It's interesting how you can use the word "God" for just about anything, isn't it? You can just make up random shit and claim "God" did it. How is this any different from superstition?

ANSWER: It's no different. They are the same.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #185 on: July 12, 2013, 03:52:38 AM »

Yes.  The only miracle was the conversation and the timing of it.
All 5 times it has happened.

Then, how exactly do you distinguish between a "miracle" and a rare event?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #186 on: July 12, 2013, 04:08:23 AM »

Yes.  The only miracle was the conversation and the timing of it.
All 5 times it has happened.

Then, how exactly do you distinguish between a "miracle" and a rare event?

Me having an active dialog with God is a rare event.  Miracles are the result of that conversation and the conversation itself.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #187 on: July 12, 2013, 04:11:20 AM »

"Material stuff" or doing what they want is NOT a top priority.  Your relationship / time is the top priority. God did those things as part of our conversation.

Why do you keep claiming to know what God did or didn't do? Please demonstrate how you 'know' these things - b/c as it seems right now, you're just pulling crap out of your ass.

It's interesting how you can use the word "God" for just about anything, isn't it? You can just make up random shit and claim "God" did it. How is this any different from superstition?

ANSWER: It's no different. They are the same.

I don't want to interrupt your conversation and be a third wheel. 

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #188 on: July 12, 2013, 04:13:10 AM »
You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.
I know the first thing I do when I want someone's attention is to hurt their loved ones.

Though sometimes I'll send a text message.  I get lazy sometimes.

Sometimes a direct assault works best.  As your post illustrates.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #189 on: July 12, 2013, 05:15:00 AM »
You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.

Are you batshit insane??  You truly believe that an all powerful entity has to destroy someone's life in order to gain the attention of someone else?? That's just sick.

God: "Hmm, Nat doesn't seem to believe in me. Let's fix this up now..."
<kills my whole family is some horrific way>

Me: "Oh wow man, that really sucks, my entire family just died horribly. Guess this means god is real then, I better start praying to it."
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #190 on: July 12, 2013, 08:07:06 AM »
I know the first thing I do when I want someone's attention is to hurt their loved ones.

Though sometimes I'll send a text message.  I get lazy sometimes.

Sometimes a direct assault works best.  As your post illustrates.
I'm seriously confused as to what manner of assault my post illustrates.  The sarcastically-pointing-out-the-ramifications-of-your-claims hadouken?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #191 on: July 12, 2013, 08:09:51 AM »
.....she would be run over by a bus and lose both her legs at the age of 45. He knew she would lose her job, her husband would leave her, she would have to go on welfare and move in with her elderly mother.  He knew that most of their combined incomes would be spent on caring for her.  God knew that she would have constant pain and be in and out of the hospital for nasty infections. She and her mother will be dealing with her medical bills for the rest of their days.

You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.

Frankly, I'm as sickened as nogods was at this.  So you actually think about what you are typing?  You are suggesting that god caused a woman to be run over and lose her legs.  To be in constant pain.  Just to send someone else a message?

It absolutely sickens me.  Frankly, anyone who cripples someone and subjects them to constant pain just to "get my attention" can get stuffed.

Are you familiar with the popular depiction of the mafia?  With protection rackets?  With the way that gangsters would burn down the odd business, inflict the odd beating, in order that other people would "get the message"?  Can you explain how your god crippling someone to give nogods a message should not be considered just as despicable?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #192 on: July 12, 2013, 08:20:46 AM »
Frankly, I'm as sickened as nogods was at this.  So you actually think about what you are typing?  You are suggesting that god caused a woman to be run over and lose her legs.  To be in constant pain.  Just to send someone else a message?

It absolutely sickens me.  Frankly, anyone who cripples someone and subjects them to constant pain just to "get my attention" can get stuffed.

Are you familiar with the popular depiction of the mafia?  With protection rackets?  With the way that gangsters would burn down the odd business, inflict the odd beating, in order that other people would "get the message"?  Can you explain how your god crippling someone to give nogods a message should not be considered just as despicable?
There is a demented Phelp-esque consistency present though - isn't SkyWriting the one who basically dismissed the suffering aspect of drowning children or somesuch?

However, one thing I'm unclear on is if SkyWriting subscribes to the whole 'god is love' thing.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #193 on: July 12, 2013, 08:31:40 AM »
You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.
I know the first thing I do when I want someone's attention is to hurt their loved ones.

Sometimes a direct assault works best.  As your post illustrates.

Serious question, SkyWriting.  Do you think that your god might sometimes do things in order to drive people further from him?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #194 on: July 12, 2013, 10:02:15 AM »

Yes.  The only miracle was the conversation and the timing of it.
All 5 times it has happened.

Then, how exactly do you distinguish between a "miracle" and a rare event?

Me having an active dialog with God is a rare event.  Miracles are the result of that conversation and the conversation itself.

So you are admitting then that you are unable to distinguish between what you call "miracles" and rare occurrences in the world?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #195 on: July 12, 2013, 10:06:39 AM »

Serious question, SkyWriting.  Do you think that your god might sometimes do things in order to drive people further from him?

The bible actually states that Yahweh does this. He sends them a "strong delusion that they may believe a lie".

2 Thessalonians 2:11 - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Astreja

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #196 on: July 12, 2013, 10:20:43 AM »
I can explain SW's "egregiously harm living beings to bring them into the fold" theobarbarity in two words:

Stockholm Syndrome.

Think about it:  Weird and nasty things are happening to you and your loved ones, and you feel trapped in a world that's out of control.  Your religious beliefs tell you that your god should be helping, but it isn't happening.  To avoid a total crash of faith (which in a crisis may be the sole positive in a sea of negatives), what can one do but proceed on the assumption that there's a reason for the pain and that your god is making you go through all this out of love?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #197 on: July 12, 2013, 10:38:09 AM »
That makes a lot of sense, Astreja.  It isn't quite Stockholm Syndrome, but it's close enough to it.  Especially when you consider that when good things happen, it's incredibly easy for religious people to give credit to God - and makes them more willing to suffer the bad stuff.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #198 on: July 12, 2013, 12:46:13 PM »
At least it is consistent to ascribe all events, good and bad, to god. That is what Muslims do. And they accept that god is a dictator who can do whatever he wants to you. You are not supposed to understand god. You are supposed to submit to god. That is what the term "muslim" means: one who submits to god.  God has already decided who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. It is a very fatalistic worldview. Human beings are helpless in the face of god's wrath. :o

It is not surprising that strict Islam and harsh dictatorship go together so nicely. Like the Taliban. But  am always surprised to find non-Muslims going in this direction. :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #199 on: July 12, 2013, 02:53:38 PM »
I can explain SW's "egregiously harm living beings to bring them into the fold" theobarbarity in two words:

Stockholm Syndrome.

Think about it:  Weird and nasty things are happening to you and your loved ones, and you feel trapped in a world that's out of control.  Your religious beliefs tell you that your god should be helping, but it isn't happening.  To avoid a total crash of faith (which in a crisis may be the sole positive in a sea of negatives), what can one do but proceed on the assumption that there's a reason for the pain and that your god is making you go through all this out of love?

That has no relation to anything I was taught, but an interesting analysis anyway.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #200 on: July 12, 2013, 07:00:05 PM »
You are concerned about other people.  The whole situation might be
just to get your attention.  You're that important and worth the effort.

A human would have to have quite an ego to think they are that important. And if there is a god, and he is mucking up the lives of others just to get my attention, then fuck him. I've scraped dog shit off of my shoe that was more worthy of my respect than a deity who would harm others rather than just coming right out and saying whatever he wanted to say to me. His hide and seek game just isnt that important.

Don't tell me that humans are born sinners and then assign far more repugnant ideals to your god  That make even my baddest bits and pieces seem completely frickin' benign in comparison. A god pulling stunts like that would be in no position to judge me about anything other than perhaps how snazzily I dress. And he'd be wrong about that too. By default.

If he wants my attention, all he has to do is fart in my general direction. And be visible so that I know who to blame.


Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #201 on: July 12, 2013, 09:11:37 PM »
This whole "God caused X physical event to happen to someone in order to achieve Y" thing is really confusing in light of SkyWriting's other belief, here:

God does his work on earth through believers and has no direct control of matter.

How'd he go about causing the injury, then?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #202 on: July 13, 2013, 09:14:01 AM »
This whole "God caused X physical event to happen to someone in order to achieve Y" thing is really confusing in light of SkyWriting's other belief, here:

God does his work on earth through believers and has no direct control of matter.

How'd he go about causing the injury, then?

Why to bad things happen to good people?  Our environment is not under the control of God.