Author Topic: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...  (Read 19818 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2013, 12:50:23 PM »
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees?

Strictly speaking, we don't.  However, since there have been no documented cases of it occurring, we simply presuppose that it doesn't happen; it's a safe assumption to make.  If any contrary evidence ever arises, we will certainly examine it.  The fact that almost no one ever has come along and said, "Yes, God does too heal amputees!" is also a pretty clear indication that it doesn't happen.  The handful of people who have attempted to make that claim have basically fallen into two camps: 1) people offering personal anecdotes without any evidence, and 2) people referring to the so-called "Miracle of Calanda", which was a hoax.

Quote
Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."

That is the context in which the question is specifically asked here, yes: restoring an amputated limb.  I take it you haven't read the main site yet (for which I don't fault you; it's a long read, to be sure).  In that site, the author states quite explicitly that restoration of amputated limbs is the definition of "heal" that he is using.

Welcome to WWGHA.  Some friendly (and, I hope, helpful) advice: you appear to be a believer, and as such, you may find yourself overwhelmed with responses from atheists, who are in the majority here.  If so, please don't be afraid to speak up and say that you need a little time to take your breath so you can catch up.  We'd rather see you do that then have you feel like you need to leave due to being swamped, which happens far too often.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2770
  • Darwins +77/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2013, 02:58:57 PM »
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees? 

Strictly speaking, we don't.  But the thing is; there is no verified, documented cases of an amputee being healed.

It's kinda like how we don't "KNOW" that microwaves do not talk while we're not home.



Quote
The only way you could know this is if you were to investigate every amputee who has ever lived and is now living, to determine whether or not God has healed them.  The assumption is, because you don't know of any amputees that God has healed, He doesn't heal amputees.


This is nothing more than an argument from ignorant.

How can you know that microwaves do not talk?  The only way to know is to investigate every microwave that has ever existed and mointer every second of their existence.  The assumption is, because you don't know of any microwaves that talks, that none of them ever talk.


Now, strictly speaking, the above statement is correct, but you also have to determine how likely it is, and whenever there's any good reasons to think it might be true.  There is no verified, documented cases of microwaves talking, so it's considered extrememly unlikely, and there is, thus far, no good reasons to think it might be true.  The same goes for your god.  No verified, documented cases of god-healed amputees, no good reasons to think it happens.  If things were to change, then our takes on the subject would start to change.


Quote
Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."
 

On the main site, that is how "heal" is being defined in this context.  As far as I can tell, everyone here has this definition in mind.


Quote
However, can "healing" not be brought about in other ways?  I can think of several off the top of my head.  Since I am new here, and this is only my third post, I will reserve further discussion for a later time and post, but I do see bit of "begging the question" in the contention that God doesn't heal amputees, therefore there is no God.

Well, hopefully, you'll stick around long enough to give us your take on the matter.  Though I think it's only fair to warn you, most of the people here will not be enthralled if you try for a "spirital healing" explaination.  Such a thing will be dismissed as little more than "a coping mechanism", and they'll tell you that it doesn't demostrate that your god exists.

I don't know if that's what you had in mind, but you might want to think twice before using it.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 03:06:28 PM by Aaron123 »
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12577
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2013, 03:18:49 PM »
You still misunderstand and misinterpret.

I promise you, I don't.  The problem is, you are saying things you do not understand and have not thought through.  You are using words to mean things other than what they are commonly accepted to mean.

Let me tell you, my little friend, I did not become an atheist on a whim.  I have studied and researched the ideas people have had about gods for a long time.  I've looked at xianity, islam, judaism, buddhism, sikhism and hinduism.  I've read large parts of the bible, the koran, the upanishads, the vedas, and the bhagivad gita.  You are not saying anything to me I've not heard before.

The soul is perfect. The body is not.

Demonstrate the former.  Please provide me with a soul I can examine for imperfection.  Also, I'll need a definition of perfection.

This is what I mean when I say you don't know what you are talking about and obviously have not thought it through.  Rather, you are saying things considered to be deep, but are really just trivial at best.  "The soul is perfect" is meaningless unless we know what a soul is and what perfection means.  You may as well have written "the gronk is blurple".  Both sentences have as much meaning.   

There are no amputee in the soul world.

Oh really?  How do you know this?  How can we verify this? 

You don't know this and there is no way to verify it.  Thus, you are talking out your ass.

The body is subject to pleasure and pain and we have to learn to live with them and this is what religion teaches us to do.

?  Religion does nothing of the sort.  Religion has two functions.  First it is a conservative mechanism in a culture.  It serves to describe a culture and pass it on under the auspices of it being "what the gods demand of us".  Second, it is a collection of superstitions defining the so-called relationship between those gods and the people who believe in them. 

If you think religion does anything else, please make your case.

Death of a body is not death to God because the person he knows is still alive and well (souls).

You have made a claim without any attempt to provide evidence that your claim is true.  As such it is considered to be preaching.  Not only is preaching against the site rules, it is rude.  Unfortunately many, many theists who come here do not realize what they are doing.  Now you know.  No need to thank me.  Just do better, please.

Death and sickness is real to us and we seek prayers to God in helping us cope with them.

The whole entire point of this site is praying to god does absolutely nothing to help cope with them.  Rather than address the points made on the side, you just repeat your claims all over again, as if I am unfamiliar with them and do not understand what you mean. 


You have to understand our position of belief and not be closed to it.

I do understand it.  I once held it.  It is an ignorant and delusional position.  I do not have to be open to ignorance and delusion.  That would be stupid of me to do.  Telling me I have to be open to it does not improve your reputation.

Im trying to best understand your view point the best I can.

I really don't think you are. 
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12577
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #90 on: May 25, 2013, 03:27:24 PM »

Yes.  From what I understand, Hindu belief in a god can be expressed as "god is the entire universe" to a chosen personal god, such as Krishna.  Am I correct?

yes and no.  The universe is an illusion (maya).  Reality is that we are all a "spark of the divine" - little pieces of god (Brahman) that have broken off and are confused and think we are our own individuals.  This is even true of the hindu gods.  While there may seem to be Brahma, vishnu, shiva, and about a thousand others, they are also confused.  They are all really just aspects of the one being, brahman.  Once we can see that we are all really one, really a part of god, then we can achieve enlightenment.  Until then, brahmins get to treat everyone like shit.

Also, Krishna is not a god, exactly.  Krishna was an avatar of vishnu.

I don't know if that is kiran's take, but that is pretty standard hindu thought as I understand it.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline The Gawd

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 883
  • Darwins +78/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #91 on: May 25, 2013, 05:42:59 PM »
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees?  The only way you could know this is if you were to investigate every amputee who has ever lived and is now living, to determine whether or not God has healed them.  The assumption is, because you don't know of any amputees that God has healed, He doesn't heal amputees. Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."  However, can "healing" not be brought about in other ways?  I can think of several off the top of my head.  Since I am new here, and this is only my third post, I will reserve further discussion for a later time and post, but I do see bit of "begging the question" in the contention that God doesn't heal amputees, therefore there is no God.

WHOA!!!

you took a major leap there broham. The correct leap, but taking the steps is important. The question is WHY wont god heal amputees. We can assert that because there are no amputees being healed (ie limbs coming back). This is in stark contrast to "healing cancer" where we are told all the time that god does this, or helps you find a parking spot. So, unless you are saying god DOES heal amputees we are certainly open to the example of this, we would be justified in saying he does not. So WHY does god not heal amputees. From there you can build your way to the logical and obvious answer that yahweh (in this instance) does not exist.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12702
  • Darwins +337/-85
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #92 on: May 26, 2013, 07:33:56 AM »
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees?  The only way you could know this is if you were to investigate every amputee who has ever lived and is now living, to determine whether or not God has healed them.

Wrong. You look at current and past evidence. Past evidence shows photographs, from wars, where there were many thousands of people who were never healed and current evidence that shows none are healed as well.

Quote
The assumption is, because you don't know of any amputees that God has healed, He doesn't heal amputees.

Again wrong. There's no evidence.

Quote
Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."  However, can "healing" not be brought about in other ways?  I can think of several off the top of my head.  Since I am new here, and this is only my third post, I will reserve further discussion for a later time and post, but I do see bit of "begging the question" in the contention that God doesn't heal amputees, therefore there is no God.

But that's not just what the Bible says. Have you read it? Apparently not.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #93 on: May 26, 2013, 12:48:15 PM »

[[religion is bullshit and based in irrational reasoning]]

 

median

In you humble opinion.
You cant deny or judge something based on your failures.

Once again, that is YOUR failure - your mere ASSUMPTION that I am judging religion based upon "my failures". NOPE! I'm judging religion based upon it's theological claims, it's texts, and it's effects.

Your credulity does not stand in just judgment of my rational mind - seeing as how you are willing to use every form of gullibility in sheep's clothing to mask the flaws in your attempts at reasoning. FAILURE is where you began - in that you STARTED with a credulous conclusion regarding your religion (backwards thinking) and then began trying to interpret all evidence in it's favor. Intellectual integrity, for you, it seems has no merit.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #94 on: May 26, 2013, 12:53:58 PM »

[[[It's because you read it in the bible]]] 

median

I am a Hindu but not that it makes a difference.  I just liked to use those words Jesus spoke because they are so true. As I have said, first you hear about God, then you read about God and finally when you experience God you know you have your proof. All these have happened to me and I cant deny my senses. There is no other logical explanation.

WRONG! You just demonstrated the logical fallacy called The Argument from Incredulity (aka - The Argument from Ignorance - which is fallacious and unsound). THERE ARE in fact many other explanations. ALL of which are far more likely than the ASSUMPTION you made (which is based in your gullibility - which ultimately has it's roots in your upbringing and societal pressures).

Yes THERE ARE other logical explanations (one of them being that you had a misapprehension and that your senses failed you, or that you interpreted your "experience" mistakenly). The very LAST explanation to go to would be the supernatural one - NOT the first one.

You are being gullible and superstitious.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #95 on: May 26, 2013, 01:39:08 PM »
That should have read like Robots.
If someone controls our every will then we are like ‘robots.’
That’s all that was meant by that. It was point made to say why God does not control us.

WRONG AGAIN. No, that is NOT what you said [but nice try]. You said,

"What you are saying is exactly the reason why God does not appear. God generally does not interfere in the lives of humans. If he did then we would all be robots.

That claim is just plain false. A deity God "thing" could show up right now and I might STILL choose to say "FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!" - due to his murderous ways in the bible etc. So I would STILL have freewill, regardless of whether or not this god showed up or not. So again, your claim is just plain mistaken.


Even if everything was predestined (as many people sometimes  claim) then know that according to Hindu philosophy we still have free will to change the course of our destiny by what you do today. If your result of where you are today was because of your actions and thoughts in he past then just imagine how you be what you want to be in the future. 
You decide what and where you want to go.

Now you are changing the subject (red-herring). You made the claim that you think we all have "freewill". I think you are mistaken (in definition) - and I don't think you have actually studied the arguments for/against freewill enough to actually discuss the subject and know what you are talking about. As you've done since the beginning, YOU ASSUME what freewill is. That is another mistake.


Trust me they are. You may choose to give it a name like coincidence or fate or luck or chance or whatever—but I choose to call it ‘help from God’—especially when I have asked for – ask and you shall receive. 

That is exactly your problem. YOU ARE GULLIBLE!!! You chose to interpret this alleged experience as "God" because you STARTED with your conclusion first (before investigating) - and that is backwards.

And no, I will not just "trust" you. That is what every gullible religious person does - ASSUMES! You are making assumptions instead of doing investigation.

That is CREDULITY! Plain and simple.



OK so how is some grand explanation going to help me any differently? Fact or Fiction the difference to my life has been made.
People talk of freedom of ‘free will’ yet here you are directly and indirectly trying to control what I should be thinking and not thinking. 

NOPE. You are wrong again. How could anybody 'control' your thoughts?? You just don't like being challenged. I'm trying to get you to THINK LOGICALLY (aka - to be rational and not so gullible). So far, you haven't shown that you have any good way for separating fact from fiction.

Beliefs have consequences, sir. You don't live alone on an island.


If your logic does let you believe in a God then Im not going to force you to believe. A question was asked and I responded. Please don’t compare me to those other preachers and people who try to convert others. Off course they are free to tell me about their way of life only if I am interested in listening. Likewise you don’t have to listen to what I believe.

And you don't have to use irrational arguments to support your view. You couldn't "force" me to believe even if you wanted to, because belief doesn't work that way. One must be CONVINCED (by rational or irrational reasons).


Yes –we all see ONLY what we want to see from our life experiences and beliefs and nature and level of understanding.

I'm glad that you have admitted that you are only seeing what you want to see, in regards to your religion (and ignoring the things that do not support your view) - thanks for admitting Confirmation Bias - but your claim is still false. We DO NOT always only see what we want to see - and being in denial doesn't change facts. You have the right to your own opinion, but you DO NOT have the right to your own facts.

This is why faith is useless and bullshit. It is not a pathway to truth. Anyone can just "have faith" in any bullshit claim (because they desperately WANT to believe) but that does nothing to help us separate fact from fiction. All it shows is that you are gullible and credulous.




Mythical stories have been the backbones of many teachings for righteous living and morality. There is nothing wrong in that. You should try reading Hinduism.
Off course its not for everyone but its still valid in today’s society for millions because they are still inspired by these stories.

Thank you, again, for admitting that your beliefs are based on myth. But I prefer reality over fiction. Now, if ALL you are claiming is that the religion you believe in is FALSE, but helpful then fine - but we don't see that happening in the real world. We see people with false religions, voting, putting other religious people in office, trying to rule our lives based on those false beliefs, etc etc. It DOES effect us.

Again, beliefs have consequences for all of us - especially false beliefs.


I will answer the rest later...







Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline kiran

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 33
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #96 on: May 29, 2013, 04:51:08 PM »
Questions have come different people and I think its going to be easy for me write my opinions on them here.

Please forgive my simplistic English language used because this is the level of my ability to write.
I am also sorry if my ‘points’ were not made in the right forum and since the questions kept on coming .......

1]
Often we read and hear about the things we have not seen or tasted or experienced. That does not mean those things are unreal. It just means we have not seen or tasted or experienced these things yet.

Many of you have heard of the land called India. Some of you have read about it and may be some of you even experienced it by going there. But you often believe what is told about India whether it’s a true picture of the land or not.

Similarly we hear about God and many of us believe what we are told.
Just because I cant show you God or a soul –does not mean it does not exist.
This is indirect proof. The direct proof is as I keep saying is to seek Him yourself in the right manner.


2] Some of you keep using this word ‘incredulity’.
This is nothing more than a ‘random’ word (because there are others like imagination, hallucination, dreaming etc) to deny the proof that stares you in the face. If you are not willing to ‘seek’ then how do you expect to find the answer?

I ask you to taste an apple but you refuse then how will you know what it taste like? How can you call me a liar. How can you say there is no such thing as an apple.

I also keep reading that some of you have tried to seek and found nothing.
I say this is simply your failure.
Your Failure is not a lack of my evidence of God


Scientist of the days gone by had real trouble trying to convince the so called ‘know it all’ people of their time of certain theories and scientific discoveries. They were even accused of witchcraft!
I don’t see any different happening on this forum.
Instead we get indirect swearing at God and even direct mocking of the believers.

Trying to justify each of answer with a hollow word like ‘incredulity’ means nothing to me.

God exist because ‘I believe’
God exist because ‘I exist’. 
   



3] Why do we fail to see God?
[[BG 11.8: But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give you divine eyes. Behold My mystic opulence!]]

This is why meditation and yoga and prayers and good conduct are required so that we too might get the divine insight.




4]
Hindus often see God in three ways according to their understanding.
God --Brahman – residing everywhere
God -- Antaryami – residing within
God -- Bhagavan – residing outside, beyond
 
God is described as ‘sat-chit-anada’
Sat=Truth, Existence or Pure Being,
Chit meaning Consciousness and
Ananda meaning Bliss.

These are emotions not unique to Hinduisms alone. God is experienced by the majority of the world’s population through ‘sat-chit-anada’. The human consciousness experiences the Truth via meditation or prayers or reading or service to the poor, charity work in the name of god, some ‘miracle’ they believe has occurred etc but in all cases they feel the bliss in some ways .


How do I see God?
I see him as residing everywhere, ie if everything pervades from God then surely he is all. A more personal part of him resides in me –residing within.
He is therefore inside and outside and beyond.

I worship Lord Krishna.
Krishna according to the scriptures is the One GOD that we all seek.
He is not a demi-god but the Supreme God who came to earth in human form.
Krishna describes himself in all his glory in chapter 9 onwards in the Bhagvad Gita.
http://vedabase.net/bg/9/en

If the light of a thousand suns were to blaze forth all at once in the sky, that might resemble the splendor of that exalted Being. (11:12)




5] The Hindu scriptures focuses a lot on the choices we make (Dharma) [Actions and Duty]. The choices we make results in how our life is shaped and even others around us.
The point being that I choose to believe in God and is a choice I have made.
Istn it strange that millions and millions around the world have chosen this too?
I think thats more then sufficient for proof of God-- whether you choose to ignore it.

Off course I know you all want physical proof. But just imagine all these people dont want physical proof yet they believe.
Its something to think about and certainly not mock.


I also note from some of the answers that perhaps some of you are angry or resent religion and God for whatever reasons. Well it seems to come across that way.

I can however understand that especially when all the evil things that has been done in the name of God. Totally understandable.


I mention this because in my providing some proof and in your trying to grasp that proof, this anger and resentment seems to get in the way.
Off course I might be totally wrong and apologise.






Enquiry on SOULS

6] The Hindu scripture Bhagvad Gita recognises the fact that some people will not believe what they read.
 
BG 2.29: Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all.




7] Hindu scriptures describes in details from those who have experimented, experienced and meditated upon it and discovered what it is. I have no reason to disbelieve what they tell me.
It seems to make a lot of sense to me and I accept it. 

I have no reason to doubt they are wrong or lies. It will perhaps also answer some questions about the soul raised in questions.   

BG 2:16: Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent [the material body] there is no endurance and of the eternal [the soul] there is no change. This they have concluded by studying the nature of both.
Bhagvad Gita (BG).   

BG 2:18:- No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul.

BG 2.20: For the soul … is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

BG 2.23: The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.

BG 2.24: This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.

BG 2.25: It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable and immutable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body.


If you do not believe-- then God is not for you, but Im sure some of the lessons in the scriptures are for us all.
 




8]
This paragraph from the internet explains vividly about the soul
Eg
http://veda.wikidot.com/self


Again you might discard all this as jargon and not proof.

Well as I said, we sometimes believe about things we have not heard of before, yet when it comes to God we seem to have a mental block.

I can only talk of God from what others have written about him, more importantly experienced and finally my own personal experiences.
 


9]
LIFE AFTER DEATH TOLD BY SOMEONE WHOS BEEN THERE.

Read this amazing chapter about life after death
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.php



10] WHY BELEIVE IN SOMETHIGN UNREAL.

Lets put it this way. Even atheist become connected to something unreal.
For example, You are reading some fictional Novel or go to theatre or you are watching some Sci-Fi movie like Avatar or something. In the two hours of the movie you are so engrossed that your mind becomes connected with the fictitious characters and even show emotions of sadness, happiness, love, anger, fear, shed some tears for these characters and many other feelings. Even though its unreal, you still imagine it to be real.
Even after the movie –on many occasions the emotional feelings stay with you for a while as if real. They sometimes inspire you to good or bad (depending on your nature).

When we read about God or hear about God, we become connected with him. The only difference is that our connection is longer lasting.
This lasting connection makes us believe he is real.

Off course you would argue as one person did earlier that ‘what if I become connected with Harry Potter’ does that mean Harry Potter is real?
Off course he is real to you due to your lack of spiritual advancement.

This is why so many different gods and religions exist. Everyone is a different stage of spiritual progress.

This explained in the Bhagvad Gita.

BG 7.20: Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.

BG 7.21: I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity.

BG 7.22: Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

BG 7.23: Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

http://vedabase.net/bg/7/en


The different stage of spiritual progress is again further explained by ‘gunas’ or simply put the nature of mankind.
We all have different logics but only one Truth remains that there is a GOD.

The Sanskrit words for these gunas are sattva, rajas and tamas, and in English we can translate them as goodness, passion and darkness, respectively.
Most people live their lives neither in full goodness nor in full darkness and so the mode of passion is the most prominent mode of all. In this way virtually any aspect of life can be analyzed according to these three modes of matter and it is part of the Hindu way of seeing the universe.


BG 9.25: Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.




Offline kiran

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 33
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #97 on: May 29, 2013, 05:10:09 PM »

yes and no.  The universe is an illusion (maya).  Reality is that we are all a "spark of the divine" - little pieces of god (Brahman) that have broken off and are confused and think we are our own individuals.  This is even true of the hindu gods.  While there may seem to be Brahma, vishnu, shiva, and about a thousand others, they are also confused.  They are all really just aspects of the one being, brahman.  Once we can see that we are all really one, really a part of god, then we can achieve enlightenment.  Until then, brahmins get to treat everyone like shit.

Also, Krishna is not a god, exactly.  Krishna was an avatar of vishnu.

I don't know if that is kiran's take, but that is pretty standard hindu thought as I understand it.


In your own style I guess you have sort of summed it up even when you say  [[Until then, brahmins get to treat everyone like shit. ]]

Krishna however is not considered just a demigod or an ordinary god. He Is the Supreme Personality of God--Brahman as decalred by Himself in the Bhagvad Gita. Out of all the incarnations of Vishnu --Krishna is the incarnation where he makes the appearance Himself on earth.

Off course Shiva worshippers will tell you their version!

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3049
  • Darwins +272/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #98 on: May 29, 2013, 06:03:11 PM »
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees?  The only way you could know this is if you were to investigate every amputee who has ever lived and is now living, to determine whether or not God has healed them.

Not necessary to deal in all-or-nothing, assuming that it could have happened somewhere.  I work in a hospital, Jesse, and one of the departments I work for deals with amputees.  No healings there.  It's sufficient for My needs to extrapolate and assume the negative position:  That a similar situation exists at other hospitals worldwide, no amputees are being healed, and that if the situation changes it'll be noted in a reputable medical journal and all over the Internet.

Quote
Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."

That is precisely the definition we are using here.  Psychological healing doesn't count.  The skin healing over the stump of an amputee's missing limb doesn't count.  We do mean total restoration of the limb, along with its neurological function.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline shnozzola

Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #99 on: May 29, 2013, 07:36:33 PM »
     Thank you for those definitions, Kiran.  Even for years as a Christian I could identify with your definitions.  The Quakers of Christianity believe everyone has a inner light in them that is god.  That may be the closer part of Christianity to Hinduism, IMO.

      But I disagree with these definitions as nebulous, and unnecessary, although generally people that belief this way are not a harm to society, which is an important thing.  And of further importance is that this type of believer may be less judgmental of atheists.  As sure as you may be of your Hindu beliefs, Kiran, recognize that you may be wrong, and then people will be safe.

       I think the only proof you offer is for yourself.   The proof we offer is no less valid.   I think the slow waking up of the world from primitive belief is the reason so many need to believe in a god.

I can however understand that especially when all the evil things that has been done in the name of God. Totally understandable.

       Currently, these evil things are increasing.  Those of us that totally enjoy life and recognize that this idea of some type of afterlife is so illogical, when questioned and analyzed, that we MUST argue for the ultimate value of the here and now, and we can safely do that with the internet - so our numbers are increasing worldwide, if I'm not mistaken.

The Hindu scripture Bhagvad Gita recognises the fact that some people will not believe what they read.

    Yes, the bible says basically the same thing, about looking but not seeing.  I find this demeaning to those of us that look and study and search very hard for truth. Much of the wisdom in these holy books is true, and works for society, but the existence of any type of deity - old writings from primitive people that did not understand disease, lightning, evolution, etc, etc. 

      The discerning seeker of truth that sticks around here long enough to realize atheim is not angry, but cares so much about life, perhaps more than the religious, that the passion may seem like anger.
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
  The real holy trinity:  onion, celery, and bell pepper ~  all Cajun Chefs

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12577
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #100 on: May 30, 2013, 08:01:28 AM »
Questions have come different people and I think its going to be easy for me write my opinions on them here.

Hi Kiran

Thanks for taking the time to post.  Even though I think you are pretty much wrong about every idea you have about gods, I do appreciate your participation.  You wrote a lot.  I could spend all day pointing out where you have erred with regard to logic, reason and facts.  But I don't find that particularly interesting.  I'll just address your first point.


1]
Often we read and hear about the things we have not seen or tasted or experienced. That does not mean those things are unreal. It just means we have not seen or tasted or experienced these things yet.

generally speaking this is true.  Just because I've not experienced a thing does not mean it is nonexistent.  However, it should also be noted, I have also not experienced things which do not exist.  Things that do not exist do not lend themselves to experiences. 

So if we are told of a thing and we have not experienced it, we need a way to differentiate between the existent and the nonexistent.  So far, you have not been very helpful in that regard.

Quote
Many of you have heard of the land called India. Some of you have read about it and may be some of you even experienced it by going there. But you often believe what is told about India whether it’s a true picture of the land or not.

But it is an actual land.  We can talk to people who have been there.  We can go there an verify its reality. If one person says the Himalayas are a range of the highest mountains on this planet, and another says they are rolling hills of saag paneer trees, we can verify which of them, if either, is correct.

Quote
Similarly we hear about God and many of us believe what we are told.

Here is where your analogy falls apart.  People say different things about gods, just like they do about India.  But it is not possible to verify which of those things are correct, if any.  Every version of god is defined as being more or less undetectable.  Your analogy would only hold if India were invisible, impossible to get to, and once people go there, they are never heard from again.

Quote
Just because I cant show you God or a soul –does not mean it does not exist.

Existent things are tied up with reality.  They are intermingled, entangled.  If a thing exists, it has consequences.  Consequences are evidence of a sort.  Things that do not exist cannot be entangled. 

You could say you had a dog.  There would be consequences from that if it were true.  I would expect to see a dog.  I would expect to maybe smell a dog.  I would expect food and water bowls to be present.  I might expect to see dog hair on the carpet or furniture.  I might expect to hear a dog barking.  The dog would be entangled with you, me, your house, your neighbors, reality.

If I checked your house for those things, I might not find them and there might be a very good reason for that.  But at some point, your dog must leave some kind of evidence if he exists.  There are no dogs that are invisible and intangible.  There are no dogs that neither eat nor drink.  There are no dogs that are not entangled with reality.  If you are trying to convince me you have a dog, you cannot say your dog leaves no evidence, is not entangled with reality and expect me to believe that. 

Similarly, if a god or a soul exists, there must be evidence for it.  They must be entangled with reality.  Otherwise, there is no good reason to suggest them in the first place.

Let's consider a computer.  It has a program that takes in information and determines "true" or "false".  It gives the conclusion (outputs) based on the stimulus received (inputs).  If the output is the same no matter what the inputs are, then the machine is functionally broken.   

The computer is your brain.  Your output is "god exists".  The input is "miracles" or "bhagivad gita" or "sri sri yogi mango-bananas" or, in this case, "no evidence".  There is no input that produces the output of "no gods".  Your brain is functionally broken.


reference: http://lesswrong.com/lw/jl/what_is_evidence/

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2770
  • Darwins +77/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #101 on: May 30, 2013, 11:11:08 AM »
Don't really have time to comment on everything, so a few points...


Please forgive my simplistic English language used because this is the level of my ability to write.
I am also sorry if my ‘points’ were not made in the right forum and since the questions kept on coming .......

Well, I'll try and keep that in mind.


Quote
1]
Often we read and hear about the things we have not seen or tasted or experienced. That does not mean those things are unreal. It just means we have not seen or tasted or experienced these things yet.


True.  Though keep in mind, for anything, there has to be reasonable explainations for why we are or are not experiening something.



Quote
Many of you have heard of the land called India. Some of you have read about it and may be some of you even experienced it by going there. But you often believe what is told about India whether it’s a true picture of the land or not.


We have soild reasons to believe in a land mass called India.  We all live on land masses, and they're all named something (America, France, Peru, Germany... whatever).  So the idea that there's this place called India is really not much of a stretch.  (to say nothing of that we can go there ourself, look up pictures, talk to people that lives there...)


Quote
Similarly we hear about God and many of us believe what we are told.
Just because I cant show you God or a soul –does not mean it does not exist.
This is indirect proof. The direct proof is as I keep saying is to seek Him yourself in the right manner.

Before, I mentioned how you keep trying to tell us not to expect evidence for your god.  You're doing it again.



Quote
2] Some of you keep using this word ‘incredulity’.
This is nothing more than a ‘random’ word (because there are others like imagination, hallucination, dreaming etc) to deny the proof that stares you in the face. If you are not willing to ‘seek’ then how do you expect to find the answer?


Not really sure what you mean by "random word".

I should also note that many of us used to be theists.  We sought long and hard looking for answers, and found one that most of us were not expecting (which is that god most likely does not exist).


Quote
I ask you to taste an apple but you refuse then how will you know what it taste like? How can you call me a liar. How can you say there is no such thing as an apple.


If you presented an apple, then you've clearly shown that it exists.  I'm not sure how this is suppose to be a good analogy for your god.



Quote
I also keep reading that some of you have tried to seek and found nothing.
I say this is simply your failure.
Your Failure is not a lack of my evidence of God

If you're going to accuse others of failure, at least explain why it's a failure on our part.  Simply saying that we "didn't try hard enough" doesn't get us anywhere.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #102 on: May 30, 2013, 11:41:54 AM »
Questions have come different people and I think its going to be easy for me write my opinions on them here.

Please forgive my simplistic English language used because this is the level of my ability to write.
I am also sorry if my ‘points’ were not made in the right forum and since the questions kept on coming .......

1]
Often we read and hear about the things we have not seen or tasted or experienced. That does not mean those things are unreal. It just means we have not seen or tasted or experienced these things yet.

Many of you have heard of the land called India. Some of you have read about it and may be some of you even experienced it by going there. But you often believe what is told about India whether it’s a true picture of the land or not.

Similarly we hear about God and many of us believe what we are told.
Just because I cant show you God or a soul –does not mean it does not exist.
This is indirect proof. The direct proof is as I keep saying is to seek Him yourself in the right manner.

I'm going to answer these one at a time...

Regarding "believing" something exists without seeing it, Kiran, your example of India is called a False Analogy. India is a physical place. It can be DEMONSTRATED (and quite clearly with no ambiguous language or reference). This is NOT the case with this alleged "thing" you call "God". Have you ever heard of the word GULLIBLE? Thousands of man-made false religions have been created throughout history, and you don't think yours in just another one of these? You are gullible!

Science does not say we have to "see it to believe it". It says that there must be demonstrable evidence for a claim in order to justify believing in a given phenomena. Your term "God" doesn't refer to anything in the real world. It only refers to your ignorance of things. What you do not understand you call God. But that is irrational. It is called credulity.

median

p.s. - If you cannot show me God (or demonstrate God in unambiguous fashion) then it doesn't mean your God exists, either! Your arguments for God are no different from the ancients who thought  lightening came from Zeus! You are arguing from your ignorance - trying to explain a mystery by another mystery. It doesn't work.




Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12577
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #103 on: May 30, 2013, 11:46:19 AM »
Crap.  I missed this.  this is a Lulu. I cannot not respond to this.

I ask you to taste an apple but you refuse then how will you know what it taste like? How can you call me a liar. How can you say there is no such thing as an apple.

To keep with your terrible analogy, you are asking us to taste the apple.  We ask for the apple and you hold out your empty hand.  We ask, "where's the apple?"  You reply, "you cannot see it or touch it, but it's there."  We reach out for it and can find nothing.  As far as we are concerned you just have an empty hand.  There is nothing to taste.

I suggest you stop using analogies.  They are inherently problematic.

I also keep reading that some of you have tried to seek and found nothing.
I say this is simply your failure.
Your Failure is not a lack of my evidence of God

This is pretty rude.  You have told us evidence of god is easy to find, we just have to look.  We've looked and found nothing.  Now you are trying to absolve yourself of any responsibility by blaming us.  That there is some bullshit.  If a thing is real, it should be very easy for you to show us how to find it.  Even in theoretical physics they can predict the conditions under which obscure particles would be found.  But in religion, no one can ever reliably point us toward any gods.

You should be able to provide very specific directions.  For example, you mentioned the magical land of India.  I can tell you where to find it (southern end of the asian continent), longitude and latitude, how to get there, the flight schedule for Air India (flight 102 from JFK leaves at 3:10pm tomorrow for New Delhi), the internet address for google maps, etc. 

You should be able to give equally specific instructions to us for finding god.  They should be clear and simple to follow.  Yet you have not.  Instead, you have tried to blame us.  That tells me either you do not know the way or there is no way.


Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #104 on: May 30, 2013, 12:06:45 PM »

2] Some of you keep using this word ‘incredulity’.
This is nothing more than a ‘random’ word (because there are others like imagination, hallucination, dreaming etc) to deny the proof that stares you in the face. If you are not willing to ‘seek’ then how do you expect to find the answer?

I ask you to taste an apple but you refuse then how will you know what it taste like? How can you call me a liar. How can you say there is no such thing as an apple.

I also keep reading that some of you have tried to seek and found nothing.
I say this is simply your failure.
Your Failure is not a lack of my evidence of God


Scientist of the days gone by had real trouble trying to convince the so called ‘know it all’ people of their time of certain theories and scientific discoveries. They were even accused of witchcraft!
I don’t see any different happening on this forum.
Instead we get indirect swearing at God and even direct mocking of the believers.

Trying to justify each of answer with a hollow word like ‘incredulity’ means nothing to me.

God exist because ‘I believe’
God exist because ‘I exist’. 

Now you are just trying to justify your being gullible (and having a low standard of evidence for only your religion). How arrogant! The term incredulity is NOT a random word. It describes one of the the types of irrational arguments you keep trying to make for this "God" thing. The fact is, not all nouns refer to anything real (such as the noun "Unicorn") and you haven't provided any good reason for thinking the term "God" refers to anything real. You just keep saying it, as if we should just take your word for it (like a fast talking salesman at a street market) and you keep trying to use arguments from ignorance (a logical fallacy). Just because you don't understand something (or if you personally do not have another explanation) does not in any way mean your explanation is the correct one. In fact, your explanation is THE MOST UNLIKELY ONE! And this is why we are skeptical of your claims. And you should be skeptical too - as you likely are with most everything else in life!

If a fast talking salesman came to your door and said he had a magic potion that would cure all of your ailments on contact (for 3 easy payments of $999.95), would you believe him when he refused to show you demonstrable evidence of his claims?? This is what you are doing! You have been SOLD on the idea that you experienced "God" (whatever that means). You started with your conclusion (out of intellectual laziness). You stopped critically thinking and investigating (like you WOULD NOT do with a salesman at the door) and you just believed because it made you feel comfortable.
   

Unicorn exists because 'I believe'.
Unicorn exists because 'I exist'.


The Flying Spaghetti Monster exists because 'I believe'.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster exists because 'I exist'.

WRONG!!!! Just because you believe in something doesn't make it real. Many children believe in a magic Santa Claus who gives them gifts on December 25th. Is Santa Claus real because they believe? So too, just because you exist doesn't mean there is a god. And your saying so doesn't make it so. Again, you have suspended critical thinking. You have sacrificed your rational mind for superstition. How very, very sad.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2770
  • Darwins +77/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #105 on: May 30, 2013, 12:42:41 PM »
10] WHY BELEIVE IN SOMETHIGN UNREAL.

Lets put it this way. Even atheist become connected to something unreal.
For example, You are reading some fictional Novel or go to theatre or you are watching some Sci-Fi movie like Avatar or something. In the two hours of the movie you are so engrossed that your mind becomes connected with the fictitious characters and even show emotions of sadness, happiness, love, anger, fear, shed some tears for these characters and many other feelings. Even though its unreal, you still imagine it to be real.
Even after the movie –on many occasions the emotional feelings stay with you for a while as if real. They sometimes inspire you to good or bad (depending on your nature).

When we read about God or hear about God, we become connected with him. The only difference is that our connection is longer lasting.
This lasting connection makes us believe he is real.

Off course you would argue as one person did earlier that ‘what if I become connected with Harry Potter’ does that mean Harry Potter is real?
Off course he is real to you due to your lack of spiritual advancement.

This is why so many different gods and religions exist. Everyone is a different stage of spiritual progress.

I find it VERY curious that you choose to use work of fiction as an analogy for your god.  It seems to me that your exact words here could be used as an argument against god.  Your emotional connection to your god is simply the same process that occurs whenever we get emotionally connected to a work of fiction.  The only difference being whenever we recongize said work as fiction or not.  The only thing you've listed as a difference is "longer lasting" connection.  How long is "longer lasting"?  I had a long lasting connection to Transformers ever since my early childhood (I know I watched episodes of it when I was 3 or 4).  I understood Optimus Prime before I understood god.  I guess then, Optimus Prime is more real than god. (face it, he's a better role model)


Oh, and you also mentioned something about "spiritual advancement" and "spiritual progress".  But you didn't explain what those mean, how they can be recognized, their characteristics, and how they can be measured.  I really don't know how to reply to a comment when it's so vaguely defined.  "Spiritual" is one of those religious buzz words that is meant to sound profound, but means and explains so very little. (this is your opportunity to prove me wrong by explaining the word and how it can be measured)
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2278
  • Darwins +415/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #106 on: May 30, 2013, 01:29:25 PM »
10] WHY BELEIVE IN SOMETHIGN UNREAL.

Lets put it this way. Even atheist become connected to something unreal.
For example, You are reading some fictional Novel or go to theatre or you are watching some Sci-Fi movie like Avatar or something. In the two hours of the movie you are so engrossed that your mind becomes connected with the fictitious characters and even show emotions of sadness, happiness, love, anger, fear, shed some tears for these characters and many other feelings. Even though its unreal, you still imagine it to be real.
Even after the movie –on many occasions the emotional feelings stay with you for a while as if real. They sometimes inspire you to good or bad (depending on your nature).

When we read about God or hear about God, we become connected with him. The only difference is that our connection is longer lasting.
This lasting connection makes us believe he is real.

Off course you would argue as one person did earlier that ‘what if I become connected with Harry Potter’ does that mean Harry Potter is real?
Off course he is real to you due to your lack of spiritual advancement.

This is why so many different gods and religions exist. Everyone is a different stage of spiritual progress.

I find it VERY curious that you choose to use work of fiction as an analogy for your god.  It seems to me that your exact words here could be used as an argument against god.  Your emotional connection to your god is simply the same process that occurs whenever we get emotionally connected to a work of fiction.  The only difference being whenever we recongize said work as fiction or not.  The only thing you've listed as a difference is "longer lasting" connection.  How long is "longer lasting"?  I had a long lasting connection to Transformers ever since my early childhood (I know I watched episodes of it when I was 3 or 4).  I understood Optimus Prime before I understood god.  I guess then, Optimus Prime is more real than god. (face it, he's a better role model)


Oh, and you also mentioned something about "spiritual advancement" and "spiritual progress".  But you didn't explain what those mean, how they can be recognized, their characteristics, and how they can be measured.  I really don't know how to reply to a comment when it's so vaguely defined.  "Spiritual" is one of those religious buzz words that is meant to sound profound, but means and explains so very little. (this is your opportunity to prove me wrong by explaining the word and how it can be measured)

I don't find it all that curious - kiran's position appears to be of the "squishy definition of reality" variety.

Is god real?
No - he/she/it's better than real.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3049
  • Darwins +272/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #107 on: May 30, 2013, 02:12:54 PM »
Kiran, I know all too well the allure of attraction to the imaginary.  I've had great fun with it, setting up web pages and writing fan fiction and sewing costumes.

That does not make it real.

More importantly, that does not make it useful except as a psychological prop in the toolbox of the imagination.

I would love to meet My heroes in the flesh.  I'd love to time travel, be it in a TARDIS or in Heart of Gold or under My own power as an archmage.  I'd love to whip off the occasional lightning bolt warning shot when someone behaves badly in rush-hour traffic.  I want to go to the Discworld to visit Unseen University and climb to the summit of Dunmanifestin and see the elephants standing on the back of A'tuin.  I want to lunch at the Inn of the Last Home on Krynn, and have a late supper at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

I'm not expecting it to happen any time soon, except in My imagination.

And I'm sick unto death of people bandying around the word "spiritual," as if it automatically confers bragging rights regarding one's imaginary friends.

Real knowledge works whether or not you believe in it.  Until otherwise demonstrated with real results in the real world, "spiritual knowledge" is functionally identical to "making stuff up and pretending that it's magically better than someone else's made-up stuff."
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12577
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #108 on: May 30, 2013, 02:37:49 PM »
^ reminds me of kcrady's post comparing religion to LARPing
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,14360.msg320066.html#msg320066
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline kiran

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 33
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #109 on: June 01, 2013, 07:06:17 AM »

1] Thank you all for your replies.
I would like to respond to each of you again, but I can see that until proof is shown then anything I write will be futile. I know there are other questions asked of me so please dont think i am ignoring anyone.
So instead I will pray to God; in the hope that you will all experience his presence.

I don’t know when or how that’s going to happen but I am certain it will happen and Im certain you will know it.
I hope one of you will get back and write your experiences when it does.

I might be called stupid for saying this by those who dont beleive,
I might get criticised by worshippers for wasting time praying when there are far better things to pray for.
What can I say to you both, I believe and I am using my belief................




2] The example about India was to illustrate that when we know something exist, it is easy to accept anything said about it. The point I was trying to make was that we often believe about something we haven’t seen (even when we know it exists). That’s all.
To me the soul exist to you India exist.
But yes I do take all your comments and I see how it hasn’t gone down well :) and probably not explainig any better right now  :-[


3] As to proof of God
A] I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God –which perhaps is the greatest proof. Surely they all can’t all be wrong. We are not all some primitive individuals either.

B] Then there is the testimony of Indian Yogis and Holy men who have claimed the existence of God. I gave some names earlier of people who have seen God --Surely they cant all be liars.

C] Then we have Jesus, for whom people were willing to die for and actually did and what’s amazing is the very people who fed them to the lions are the very people/country became the centre of Christian religion.
If someone wrote a story about Jesus as some of you claim then these Emperors and Kings and their intellects were very gullible to suddenly convert.

D] Egyptians Greeks Scientists like Newton etc how can we ignore that all thee people and say that they too imagined God.


E] Read this amazing chapter about life after death
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.php
Is it just lies?



F]
The Vedic Rishi Kapil said
“When I looked inwards;
I discovered there seems to be layers to ourselves.
We seem to have an external layer which is the physical level;
then we seem to have a mental layer –the mind.
But behind the body and the mind there is something distinctly different from the body and mind”
 


Eye cannot see him, nor words reveal him;
by the senses, austerity, or works he is not known.
When the mind is cleansed by the grace of wisdom,
he is seen by contemplation--the One without parts.
Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.8


“They eventually discovered how to shut off all five senses, thus temporarily doing away entirely with the consciousness of matter. The inner world of the Spirit began to open up. To those great ones who un-deviating, persisted in these inner investigation, God finally revealed Himself.” 
 





Having said this if anyone still wish to ask me any questions then I will try my best to answer. Thank you all. 

[[spiritual knowledge, "spiritual advancement" and "spiritual progress".]]
As to the word ‘spiritual’ I think it needs explaining. I think words are often used differently in tone and meaning by different religions so it can often lead to confusion and even resentment when someone uses that word.
I’ll try and write something later.

Offline The Gawd

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 883
  • Darwins +78/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #110 on: June 01, 2013, 08:43:36 AM »

1] Thank you all for your replies.
I would like to respond to each of you again, but I can see that until proof is shown then anything I write will be futile. I know there are other questions asked of me so please dont think i am ignoring anyone.
So instead I will pray to God; in the hope that you will all experience his presence.

I don’t know when or how that’s going to happen but I am certain it will happen and Im certain you will know it.
I hope one of you will get back and write your experiences when it does.

Yes, we need the proof (or evidence). Nothing else will suffice. Nothing. Many of us prayed to "god" ourselves. You see how you dont know how or when yada yada yada? Well thats when we realized we were sending worthless thoughts into the air and that "god" doesnt exist. These writings you are experiencing here ARE us writing our experiences with a god that doesnt exist.

Quote

I might be called stupid for saying this by those who dont beleive,
I might get criticised by worshippers for wasting time praying when there are far better things to pray for.
What can I say to you both, I believe and I am using my belief................




2] The example about India was to illustrate that when we know something exist, it is easy to accept anything said about it. The point I was trying to make was that we often believe about something we haven’t seen (even when we know it exists). That’s all.
To me the soul exist to you India exist.
But yes I do take all your comments and I see how it hasn’t gone down well :) and probably not explainig any better right now  :-[
It cant be understated. India exists. I have Indian friends. Ive been to an Indian wedding. I have had Indian girlfriends. I was able to verify their existence. I have seen plane tickets to India, and photos of them in India. I have seen Indian dress. I work with people in India. I have seen a documentary where a man's job was outsourced to India and he went to India to get the job back. We dont have anything supporting a god, but what some people say. If the only evidence for India was some things people said then we'd be correct in being skeptical of India especially if the things they said did not match our reality.

Quote
3] As to proof of God
A] I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God –which perhaps is the greatest proof. Surely they all can’t all be wrong. We are not all some primitive individuals either.
If that is the greatest proof then why even argue it. It was once accepted that the sun circled the earth. Surely all those people couldnt be wrong, right?  :-\ It was once believed that diseases and sickness came from demons.......then we learned about germs. Surely all those people couldnt be wrong, right?  :-\

Quote
B] Then there is the testimony of Indian Yogis and Holy men who have claimed the existence of God. I gave some names earlier of people who have seen God --Surely they cant all be liars.
Well, yes they surely CAN all be liars. The most likely scenario is SOME are liars meaning they know they are peddling falsehoods, the others are just gullible, credulous, and mistaken.

Quote
C] Then we have Jesus, for whom people were willing to die for and actually did and what’s amazing is the very people who fed them to the lions are the very people/country became the centre of Christian religion.
If someone wrote a story about Jesus as some of you claim then these Emperors and Kings and their intellects were very gullible to suddenly convert.
Jesus never existed. People die for stupid things every day. The obvious question is why Jesus wouldnt save them from the lions? The obvious answer.... Jesus isnt real.

Quote
D] Egyptians Greeks Scientists like Newton etc how can we ignore that all thee people and say that they too imagined God.
Imagined is the key word. You too are imagining god. Im not even going to address all the logical fallacies you are exhibiting in literally EVERY point.

Quote
E] Read this amazing chapter about life after death
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.php
Is it just lies?
No. there is no way to write about life after death. You are either alive or dead. If youre dead youre not writing books. If you are alive youre not dead. There is no blurred line here.

Quote
F]
The Vedic Rishi Kapil said
“When I looked inwards;
I discovered there seems to be layers to ourselves.
We seem to have an external layer which is the physical level;
then we seem to have a mental layer –the mind.
But behind the body and the mind there is something distinctly different from the body and mind”

what does this even mean. If there is a distinctly different layer, he should be able to distinctly describe it and demonstrate it.
 

Quote
Eye cannot see him, nor words reveal him;
by the senses, austerity, or works he is not known.
When the mind is cleansed by the grace of wisdom,
he is seen by contemplation--the One without parts.
Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.8
Is he talking about the Great Muba Muba?

Quote
“They eventually discovered how to shut off all five senses, thus temporarily doing away entirely with the consciousness of matter. The inner world of the Spirit began to open up. To those great ones who un-deviating, persisted in these inner investigation, God finally revealed Himself.” 
This means nothing.
 

Quote
Having said this if anyone still wish to ask me any questions then I will try my best to answer. Thank you all. 

[[spiritual knowledge, "spiritual advancement" and "spiritual progress".]]
As to the word ‘spiritual’ I think it needs explaining. I think words are often used differently in tone and meaning by different religions so it can often lead to confusion and even resentment when someone uses that word.
I’ll try and write something later.

Yes you need to define and demonstrate this spiritual talk

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12577
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #111 on: June 01, 2013, 09:07:35 AM »
A] I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God –which perhaps is the greatest proof. Surely they all can’t all be wrong. We are not all some primitive individuals either.

yes, they could all be wrong.  Why couldn't they?  And yes, we are all primitives.

B] Then there is the testimony of Indian Yogis and Holy men who have claimed the existence of God. I gave some names earlier of people who have seen God --Surely they cant all be liars.

Some of them could be crazy, some of them could be liars, and some of them could be experiencing perfectly natural functions of brain, but wrongly attribute it to the supernatural.

C] Then we have Jesus, for whom people were willing to die

That only proves that people have convictions, not that their convictions are real or good.  People were also willing to die for Lenin, Mao and Charles Manson.

these Emperors and Kings and their intellects were very gullible to suddenly convert.

Yes, they were.

how can we ignore that all thee people and say that they too imagined God.

Thomas Jefferson owned slaves.  How can we ignore him and say slavery is wrong?

Is it just lies?

yes.

The Vedic Rishi Kapil said

a whole lot of talk without evidence.


Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2770
  • Darwins +77/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #112 on: June 01, 2013, 01:07:11 PM »

1] Thank you all for your replies.

You're welcome.


Quote
I would like to respond to each of you again, but I can see that until proof is shown then anything I write will be futile.


That's the general idea, yes.  After all, why believe in something if there is no evidence to speak of? (with this post, I assume you are stating that you have no evidence whatsoever to show us)


Quote
So instead I will pray to God; in the hope that you will all experience his presence.

I don’t know when or how that’s going to happen but I am certain it will happen and Im certain you will know it.
I hope one of you will get back and write your experiences when it does.

Again, I feel the need to point out that many of us are ex-believers.  We didn't just wake up one day and said "eh, screw this god thing".  We prayed and prayed to hang on to our beliefs, but in the end, the lack of evidence was too overwhelming to ignore.  You're free to pray to your god, but we're not going to expect anything to happen.  Nothing has "happened" during the previous many years of our lives, and nothing has given us any reasons to think that'll change.


Quote
3] As to proof of God
A] I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God –which perhaps is the greatest proof. Surely they all can’t all be wrong. We are not all some primitive individuals either.


This is what's called an appeal to majority.  I'm not sure if you're familar with the concept of logic fallacies.  In this case, you're trying to say that because a large group of people agree with it, it must be true.  Agreement has nothing to do with whenever something is truthful or not.  At one point, many people thought the Earth was flat.  That didn't make it true, did it?  The fact is; people are often wrong about things, and they tend to be wrong about the very same thing.


Quote
B] Then there is the testimony of Indian Yogis and Holy men who have claimed the existence of God. I gave some names earlier of people who have seen God --Surely they cant all be liars.


I do not think they were all liars, but they most likely were delusional, confused, credulous, or otherwise, were far took quick to attribute something to god.


Quote
C] Then we have Jesus, for whom people were willing to die for and actually did and what’s amazing is the very people who fed them to the lions are the very people/country became the centre of Christian religion.

That just tells me they had very strong beliefs.  It doesn't tell me if those beliefs were truthful.

I'm going to direct you to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)


In March of 1997, 39 people commited mass suicide, believing that they would be taken by an alien spacecraft following the Hale-Bopp comet.  Do you imagine that they were correct in their beliefs (since they died for it), or were they tragically delusional?


Quote
If someone wrote a story about Jesus as some of you claim then these Emperors and Kings and their intellects were very gullible to suddenly convert.


Gullible?  Crazy?  Opportunistic?  It's hard to tell sometimes.


Quote
D] Egyptians Greeks Scientists like Newton etc how can we ignore that all thee people and say that they too imagined God.

Being a scientist does not stop you from being a flawed human being.  Being a scientist does not stop you from having the wrong ideas about something.



Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3049
  • Darwins +272/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #113 on: June 01, 2013, 06:42:28 PM »
A] I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God –which perhaps is the greatest proof. Surely they all can’t all be wrong.

Yes, they can all be wrong.  Even if every sentient being in the entire universe believed in Fred the Time-Travelling Turtle, it's entirely possible for Fred the Time-Travelling Turtle to be fictional.  What you have done, Kiran, is used the logical fallacy of appeal to popularity.  The truth of something is not connected to the number of people who believe it.

Think of it this way:  If one day you discovered that non-believers outnumbered believers, would you give up your belief just because you were now in the minority position?
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline kiran

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 33
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #114 on: June 03, 2013, 06:20:54 PM »

Its going to be quite difficult to reply to you all individually. Perhaps i shouldn’t bother, but there have been a few things said that generalises my points.
 
1]
[[(with this post, I assume you are stating that you have no evidence whatsoever to show us)]]
 

I think you have to prove to yourself that Gid exist; since you have refused to taken anyone else’s word for it. Its always been an individuals journey and that goes without saying.
You will see if you are willing to try again—but I cant teach how on the internet.


88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
 

2]
[[Many of us prayed to "god" ourselves.]]
[[These writings you are experiencing here ARE us writing our experiences with a god that doesnt exist.]]
[[".  We prayed and prayed to hang on to our beliefs, but in the end, the lack of evidence was too overwhelming to ignore. ]]

Sometimes we have to say “I failed in my prayers” rather than say I couldn’t find evidence. That would be a most humbling thing to admit and this will remove the ego.
Once you submit to God then you are ready to see God.

This is difficult indeed to admit and you may become angry at me but I dont say it an offensive or demeaning way.

Humility has to come before God reveals himself.


88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888


3]
[[Well thats when we realized we were sending worthless thoughts into the air and that "god" doesnt exist.]]

Thoughts are not worthless. More often, than not, they create/shape/reflect who we are. Words are very powerful, whether said in the mind or out aloud.
Repeating the name of God sends out vibrations/singles/energy that connects us with God.
(I dont want to go into the whole science things but i have read that there are machines we can work by merely thinking it to move—used for handicapped people.) 


88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

4]
I said [[I cant ignore the fact billions believe in a God]]
Some of your comments

[[If that is the greatest proof then why even argue it.]]
[[[[yes, they could all be wrong. ]]]
[[This is what's called an appeal to majority]]
[[Yes, they can all be wrong. ]]
 
Then some of you tried to justify with some examples
 



[[It was once accepted that the sun circled the earth. Surely all those people couldnt be wrong, right?]]
[[It was once believed that diseases and sickness came from demons.......then we learned about germs. Surely all those people couldnt be wrong, right?]]
[[At one point, many people thought the Earth was flat.  That didn't make it true, did it?]]

At the time of the thought --this was the only Truth available to them so those people were right.
Later the Truth was available through Knowledge and a new Truth came to light.

We all go through life misjudging something because of some misinformation then realise the greater truth when the information changes and understand it better.

Billions now understand that God is not just thunder and lighting. He is more than that and real. They believe because they believe the new Truth revealed to them through meditations and deep contemplation on God.


Please dont try to use the same argument on me by saying “the new Truth is that there is no God.” 
That would simply be saying 
“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”


88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888



5]
Talking about Jesus
 
[[That just tells me they had very strong beliefs.  It doesn't tell me if those beliefs were truthful.]]
 

The fact that they believed –then this is the ‘Truth’.
Hence Jesus was real –people dont often believe in unreal stuff.
Not only that, the proof they used to convince themselves of the validity of a real Jesus was the words he preached. It made sense.
Also the story was presented by highly intellectual people and they had no reason to doubt them.

As you say the same thing happened to a group who people who were told about aliens from a very valid source and highly respected people (in their opinions).
Why should they refuse to believe them. Im sure they made a good case for it and so people became convinced. Its only when they tried to prove and failed that they lost ‘faith’.

After all even Presidents can tell lies to go to war and people believe it was the Truth since the case put forward was convincing.

The truth becomes untruth only when its proven false.
God has not been proven false.
Today people have not yet lost faith in Jesus. So he is still the Truth.

Those who do give up believing in God, Im sure have numerous reasons to do so. But they only act according to their belief and not proof ie they have not proved that God did not exist. Not finding a way to connect with God is not a reason to say he does not exist.


Again some of the answers from some of you sound like
“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”
 



88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888




6]
I said [[[Egyptians Greeks Scientists like Newton etc how can we ignore that all thee people and say that they too imagined God.]]

Being a scientist does not stop you from being a flawed human being.  Being a scientist does not stop you from having the wrong ideas about something.


Im sorry but that’s just another assumption that every scientist and Kings and Emperors and teachers and intellect from the last 10,000 years are ALL FLAWED HUMAN BEINGS.
Its just sounds like yet another case of
 “Im right, You’re wrong.”


88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888




7]
[[The truth of something is not connected to the number of people who believe it.]]
[[Think of it this way:  If one day you discovered that non-believers outnumbered believers, would you give up your belief just because you were now in the minority position?]]



Off course I would have to give thought to the number of non-believers. They could be right. Just because you are in a minority does not mean you are right either. Look what Bush did against the will of the majority. He managed to go war with a lie. So minority are not always right and majority just possible are right.

The majority of worshippers haven’t been proven wrong because majority have experienced something they believe is God and more are attracted and more people are experiencing God.
Please dont tell me that those experiences are not God-experiences. How would you know? Its then begins to sound like “Im right you’re wrong—trust me”

If a lot of people are now becoming atheist because they have lost faith due to the bad things that go on in the name of religion Or perhaps have been left disappointed at not finding God  or for a number of other reasons  then this is their choice. 
Cant say i agree with all the reasons.



 
88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

8]
I said :-  [[Yogis etc Surely they cant all be liars.]]
 

You’re all saying:- [[Well, yes they surely CAN all be liars.]]
[[but they most likely were delusional, confused, credulous, or otherwise, were far took quick to attribute something to god.]]

Without even knowing about these men and women you are making judgements and again the argument presented by you all is
“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”
 

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

9]

[[Jesus never existed.]]
Actually you say he is  imaginary –then how can an imaginary person change a course of history and a history of a continents and even replace entire religions, faith and way of life ---so your argument to simply say he never existed does not hold up. 

I really dont want to go into all that argument about proof by scientist and historians which Im sure you’re ready to present to me because none of those evidence are valid in my opinions against the overwhelming Truth that a change in the course of history and thinking of mankind took place.
Im sure its been discussed to death in many forums.

You might give me the whole history of Santa Clause who also has changed the course of history and culture all around the world. The difference here is that we know Santa is not real and this accepted by all adults and many children. Whereas Jesus has been accepted as being real and is worshiped and is accepted by majority adults also.


88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888


10]
[[[The obvious question is why Jesus wouldnt save them from the lions? The obvious answer.... Jesus isnt real.]]]

Who said he never saved them?
They were all saved.
Remember Jesus’s idea of being ‘saved’ is not the same as the one you are thinking of.
His idea that he is a King/has a Kingdom was not the same as that of the Pharisees or Romans thought.
Jesus is Real.



[[That only proves that people have convictions, not that their convictions are real or good.  People were also willing to die for Lenin, Mao and Charles Manson. ]]
 

Yes people died for real people.

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888


11] On God

Egyptians Greeks Scientists like Newton never imagined God,
 because Newton believed because he could not prove that Jesus/God never existed and Egyptians Greeks never needed to be know that he was unreal. Some proof that existed was enough for them.



88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
 


12]

[[No. there is no way to write about life after death. You are either alive or dead. If youre dead youre not writing books. If you are alive youre not dead. There is no blurred line here.]]


Wait. You can just call someone a liar just because you cannot grips with life and death. Also it was not the dead person writing the book—he was only writing what his Guru had told him when he came back after death.

You did not know that so fair enough—otherwise the argument could have been simply
“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”
 

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888



13
To All of you and Gawd

[[The Vedic Rishi Kapil said...................
what does this even mean. If there is a distinctly different layer, he should be able to distinctly describe it and demonstrate it.]]

[[Is he talking about the Great Muba Muba?]]
[[This means nothing.]]
[[a whole lot of talk without evidence.]]



Again you aren’t even attempting to understand what he is saying ..so we’ll just leave it at that because I cant explain it to you till we are face to face.
Internet is not a good place to make you understand or discuss certain things and hence is also the reason why Ive not been able to a reply to some of the other questions in the past by other forum users of this topic.
So my apologies if i looked like i was ignoring certain issues. 




88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
 


Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3049
  • Darwins +272/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #115 on: June 03, 2013, 11:23:54 PM »
I think you have to prove to yourself that God exists...

And how does one avoid deluding oneself into "proving" a nonexistent god by imagining that one has the truth of the matter?

Quote
Once you submit to God then you are ready to see God... Humility has to come before God reveals himself.

That, IMO, is complete and utter nonsense that is used as an excuse for why gods don't show up.  To an alleged being of such immense power, the difference between a human's "humility" and a human's "pride" would be infinitesimal.

Quote
Repeating the name of God sends out vibrations/singles/energy that connects us with God.

I think it just sends vibrations out for a short distance, whereupon they lose energy and die out.  Unless a god is already in close physical proximity, in which case it should already know what we want or need just by observing us, such prayers are doomed to fail because humans just don't possess that much vocal power.

Quote
Billions now understand that God is not just thunder and lighting. He is more than that and real. They believe because they believe the new Truth revealed to them through meditations and deep contemplation on God.  Please don't try to use the same argument on me by saying “the new Truth is that there is no God.”  That would simply be saying  “I'm right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”

Logical fallacies:  Special pleading, and strawman.  You can't just declare your "truth" to be better than ours, and arbitrarily dismiss our counter-argument.  Most of the atheists here are agnostic atheists, not gnostic ones, so we don't tend to say “the new Truth is that there is no God."  We're more likely to say "We find your alleged 'new truth' unconvincing."

Quote
The fact that they believed –then this is the ‘Truth’.  Hence Jesus was real –people don't often believe in unreal stuff.

That, sir, is ridiculous.  People have believed in unreal stuff for untold centuries.  They often do this because someone else told them it was real, and they lacked the information to know otherwise.

Quote
God has not been proven false.

Logical fallacy:  Shifting the burden of proof.  You have to prove your god to be true.  We are under no obligation to prove it false.

Quote
Not finding a way to connect with God is not a reason to say he does not exist.

It's all the reason I'll ever need.  If I can't find evidence of it in the real world, why should I bother?

Quote
So minority are not always right and majority just possible are right.

In the meantime, in the absence of evidence you cannot assume that either side is right.

Quote
Please don't tell me that those experiences are not God-experiences. How would you know?

Simple -- No good empirical evidence for a god.  You can't have an authentic "God-experience" without a god.  However, you can imagine such an experience.  It appears to be a natural neurological function that can be duplicated in a laboratory by stimulating a specific part of the brain.

Quote
If a lot of people are now becoming atheist because they have lost faith due to the bad things that go on in the name of religion Or perhaps have been left disappointed at not finding God  or for a number of other reasons  then this is their choice.  Cant say i agree with all the reasons.

It is not a choice.  I was apparently born with an inability to experience unconditional faith in anything supernatural, and fortunately was not indoctrinated as a child.  By the time I was 7 years old I had figured out that the "Hell" myth was used to control the masses.  The more I study religion -- And I've been at it nearly 50 years so far -- the closer I get to strong atheism.

Quote
Wait. You can just call someone a liar just because you cannot grips with life and death. Also it was not the dead person writing the book—he was only writing what his Guru had told him when he came back after death.

The Guru may not have been wilfully lying, but was he telling the truth?  I would tend to go on the assumption that he was unconscious and hallucinated, rather than coming back from the dead.  The human brain is not capable of regeneration after a long cessation of cardiovascular function, so in the case of genuine death (as opposed to coma and/or slowing down of bodily functions), resuscitation after more than a few minutes would permanently damage the brain.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles