Author Topic: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...  (Read 17371 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2013, 10:59:53 AM »

I am a firm believer that God exist; because I have read about God and heard about God and would say I have experienced God, (and you might call me a madman for saying that).
But I still cannot claim to know all the answers. I can only tell what i have read, observed and experienced.

And herein lies your problem. Just like the Christians, Jews, and Muslims you have ASSUMED that what you read was true! But why would you do that? Why would you just believe what your parents told you, what a friend of your family told you, or anyone else?

In my answers having told you that how I believe that both the followers of God and non-believers of God are right in their own minds, I merely stated that there is a school of thought in Hinduism who believe that the mind is the god.

Being "right in your own mind" doesn't make one bit of difference! You are just stating the obvious..."We have a disagreement!" Yeah...and...?

Do you agree with this idea that "mind is God"? If so, please define what you think "mind" is, b/c as of now, all of the evidence we have shows that minds are properties of physical substrates (i.e. - brains) and do not exist without those substrates. And if "mind" - to you - is something inherently natural, then there is no need to call it "God" b/c that term is charged with all sorts of unnecessary baggage.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2013, 11:01:21 AM »
Im new here --just joined today --

Hi Kiran.  Welcome to the forum.


Is the simple answer that there are no amputees.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/99f15bc1da84165e3d22b8d76ed289ae/tumblr_mhqcwa5A9k1qmts04o1_500.jpg

^Is this you?

That is possibly the worst answer I've ever read.  Obviously there are amputees.  You are trying to say losing is limb is somehow irrelevant or doesn't happen because you think there is an "afterlife".  Bollocks to that. 


How old are you?



and yes i need to update and learn rules on how to post in forums and even give replies –so apologies.

Please see the links in my sig.  that should help.

I am a firm believer that God exist; because I have read about God and heard about God

I've heard and read about Harry Potter.  When I read his books, I experienced him.  Does that make Harry Potter a real person?

and would say I have experienced God, (and you might call me a madman for saying that).

No.  I would say you experienced something but you don't know what it was.  Most likely, a common psychological phenomenon. Happens all the time.


I am certainly not going to argue with anyone and say that ONLY MY WAY IS RIGHT THEREFORE YOU ARE ALL WRONG (You see how arrogant that sounds).

malarkey.  There is a right and a wrong when talking about objective facts. 

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Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2013, 05:02:39 PM »
1] The Gawd
Thank you for your reply.



2] Aaron123

Wow Aaron thats a lot you are asking.
Firstly I do agree with what you say because I cant provide the answer you are looking for ie miracles or solid proof of god.
I cant deny my belief is only based on my faith and the faith millions.   

This means you are right from your perspective and I am right from my perspective.
I believe in some ‘magical being’ who is invisible and hasn’t appeared to mankind for centuries (according to you –not myself and millions) and when he did/does there isn’t any concrete proof to suggest GOD exist or HIS miracles are real.
So what can more can I say?
Not a lot really to convince you otherwise.
All I can say is ‘seek and you shall find’. This I do believe.


[[If you could offer something concrete(again, such as the healing of an amputee), then we might be willing to consider the idea that something is out there.]]

What you are saying is exactly the reason why God does not appear.
God generally does not interfere in the lives of humans. If he did then we would all be robots. We all have free will not mention, we have the karma to account for.

A person who suffers some pain must go through his pain –according to his karma. Even God is subject to Karma, but he has his under control whilst we still don’t know how to control ours, (well we do-- but few try or want to control it). So to ask God to cure all or any amputees is wrong. God has made it clear that on this earth we are born to both suffer and enjoy. Its how you react and work and live with either of those are the lessons that God generally teaches us. 

Aslo let me quickly add --just because someone has to suffer for his karma does not mean we cannot help this person (often misunderstood by non-Hindus). The other spectrum is what we call Dharma –our duty to do the right thing.
This is why we as humans are given opportunities to help amputees.



[[God is indistinguishable from a non-existence thing,]]

What I would say is that people have experiences that are beyond explanations and these are what we term as god experiences. Hence God exists for us. But that alone does not substantiate as proof of God. God must come and face the world and prove his existence.
But I don’t think that’s a good idea.
Once we see that God exist would we really suddenly become God worshippers? Would you really become a worshipper?
You write [[If you could offer something concrete(again, such as the healing of an amputee), then we might be willing to consider the idea that something is out there.]]

You will only ‘consider it’. Even you are not sure. What point is there than God to even appear before you? Just to satisfy your curiosity.

History teaches  the same. For example taking the Moses story where God parted the sea—clearly God showed himself through an amazing miracle. Now what we find next is equally amazing. Instead of the people becoming religious and worshipping God on hands and knees, they actually become something totally opposite. They become corrupt and ‘mad’.
Basically if we consider this story real then we can see what would happen.
I guess something slightly similar happened in Iraq. When the people were free of the tyrant ruler, instead of becoming good the people went on a rampage of looting and killing. (This is just a generalised observation to make my point and Im not getting into the whole politics thing. May be my generalised version is wholly incorrect.)

So its better for God to remain ‘visible’ to only those who truly wants to see him.


Second example --- Look what happened to Jesus (I know perhaps you may not believe he is real; but let imagine he was real). Even after  many people saw his miracles, many just turned away and went against him instead! How odd is that.

To be honest this is what would happen to God if he did appear today.
No amount of his explaining will convince millions to worship him.
So should God really perform miracles –yes in exceptional cases where he thinks fit and NO—not for the disbeliveers or to quench some curiosity?






3] Anfauglir
[[And the people with bad karma who also get cured?  What is your explanation for them?]]

Just because a person is bad does not mean he cannot be cured. Far from it. He is cured because of his karma.
The same reason why [[good people get sick?]].

I wrote ‘good’ in apostrophes. Karma is difficult to explain here since its neither good or bad. 

If Aaron did some great deed then that will need to be balanced out too by Aaron   getting some reward. So in reality its not a good idea to be in ‘good’ karma.
That does not mean you have to do ‘bad’ karma to balance it. It just means you should not let your good deed elevate your ego that you did something great and you wont be affected by the good deed or be in ‘debt’ of  the good deed.
Look I cant explain it all properly right now. I hope you can do your own research on this. Im sure there is so much out there.




[[Fair enough if the events returning on someone are instigated by god]]
No this is a misconception that God has something to do with you being good or bad.
Just think about it. Why would he enjoy making you suffer.
Your karma are your own.

I’ll leave at that if you don’t mind.



[[[free will]]]]
This term is used differently by Christians. I guess we are all connected in someway. Karma is not fulfilled in one life time but over many.




[[The Gawd is due some serious bad karma, and I happen along and dish it out to him......does my giving of the bad mean that I become due some bad myself? ]]

Just because he deserves bad karma does not free you from the fact that you too committed some misdeed to fulfil his karma. However –there always is a however ……

However, if you did some bad karma out of some dharma (of doing the right thing for the greater good) then off course you will not get the karma because you had to fulfil your dharma.  Eg A person is hitting a person and you save him by hitting the other person. Its you dharma to protect the weak and you are not affected by your actions of hitting the other person.

So what is advised is that you keep your karma in check. The way to do that is through God. You pray to Him and leave all your actions to him. Let him ‘control’ you. This is very difficult to do. Very few people have ever let God control their life.


Every action has a reaction –whether you agree or not.
Karma is a long topic to explain to someone and this will deviate me from the question I thought I was trying to answer. I hope you do some research of your own in the meantime.





4] Mrjason
I agree with you but this was just a thought process of some school of thoughts. A school of thought that does not believe in god as real but as the ‘being’ who is you.




5] median
[[Why would you just believe what your parents told you, what a friend of your family told you, or anyone else?]]

I also said I experienced God and this is the reason for my firmness in God. But equally I cannot prove God to others. I can show them way =s so that they too may experience –but I have refrained from saying that.


[[Do you agree with this idea that "mind is God"?]]
The mind is closer than to God then we know. After all it is what deciphers all thoughts. More importantly its also where your subconscious speaks to you. God speaks to you. I believe in a God who is real, who speaks to me and walks and talks with me. Whether you consider that is weird or madness is your choice. But whats important to me is how I see God. I am trying to explain God but without proof I fall flat like everyone else. So all I can ask you to do ‘seek and you shall find’ for yourself.
 

What is the mind?
This is beyond my ability to explain to you –so I would urge you to do some research on the websites. Google “Hindu mind” or something and hope you get the answers.
http://hinduism.about.com/od/bookextracts/a/mind.htm

http://www.hinduism.co.za/mind1.htm

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/mind.asp




6] screwtape
Hi there.

[[Welcome to the forum.]] Thank you.

[[That is possibly the worst answer I've ever read. ]] I think you need to read the rest of that post. Someone else said the same thign and I have given my reply to him if you wish to read it. 
 

[[You are trying to say losing is limb is somehow irrelevant or doesn't happen because you think there is an "afterlife". ]]
I said none of those things. You need to take a step back and take a deep breath. Lets not along this line of false accusation.


[[I've heard and read about Harry Potter.  When I read his books, I experienced him.  Does that make Harry Potter a real person?]]
Im sure youre trying to make some kind of point here :) But what I would say to you is that if you have experienced  Harry Potter helping you in someway and you consider him to be your chosen deity then certainly he will be real to you. There is no doubt about it. You should continue to worship him if you experience him :)




Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2013, 05:08:26 PM »
[[How old are you?]]  45+

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2013, 12:38:50 AM »
I'll only comment on the parts directed at me.


Firstly I do agree with what you say because I cant provide the answer you are looking for ie miracles or solid proof of god.
I cant deny my belief is only based on my faith and the faith millions.   

This means you are right from your perspective and I am right from my perspective.

Thus far, there's nothing really I can argue about.  Though I'm not seeing any compelling reasons for your beliefs...


Quote
I believe in some ‘magical being’ who is invisible and hasn’t appeared to mankind for centuries (according to you –not myself and millions) and when he did/does there isn’t any concrete proof to suggest GOD exist or HIS miracles are real.

Invisible, hasn't appeared for "centuries", and no concrete proof to speak of...  Thus far, it sounds like exactly what you'd expect for a non-existence thing.  At this point, I can't even understand why you'd believe in an invisible, do-nothing, acts non-existence being.



Quote
So what can more can I say?
Not a lot really to convince you otherwise.
All I can say is ‘seek and you shall find’. This I do believe.


I seeked and sought god before (christain god, that is).  I found nothing.


Quote
What you are saying is exactly the reason why God does not appear.
God generally does not interfere in the lives of humans. If he did then we would all be robots. We all have free will not mention, we have the karma to account for.


I like robots.  Being a robot is fine by me.  I'd just like to turn into a car.  Or maybe a plane.  Heck, just make me a triple-changer...



Quote
A person who suffers some pain must go through his pain –according to his karma. Even God is subject to Karma, but he has his under control whilst we still don’t know how to control ours, (well we do-- but few try or want to control it). So to ask God to cure all or any amputees is wrong. God has made it clear that on this earth we are born to both suffer and enjoy. Its how you react and work and live with either of those are the lessons that God generally teaches us. 


This is not at all convincing.  It is again, telling me why I shouldn't expect anything from god.  Which is the very same as a non-existence god.



Quote
Aslo let me quickly add --just because someone has to suffer for his karma does not mean we cannot help this person (often misunderstood by non-Hindus). The other spectrum is what we call Dharma –our duty to do the right thing.
This is why we as humans are given opportunities to help amputees.

Oh yes, I agree that we should help others.

But this is still telling me to expect nothing from god.



Quote
What I would say is that people have experiences that are beyond explanations and these are what we term as god experiences. Hence God exists for us. But that alone does not substantiate as proof of God. God must come and face the world and prove his existence.
But I don’t think that’s a good idea.


Again, telling me to expect nothing from god.  I'm not sure what else to say here.


Quote
Once we see that God exist would we really suddenly become God worshippers? Would you really become a worshipper?


You said before that if god appeared, we would all "become robots".  That sounded like you were suggusting that we'd all become mindless worshippers.  So I'm not sure why you're asking this.


Quote
You will only ‘consider it’. Even you are not sure. What point is there than God to even appear before you? Just to satisfy your curiosity.


How can I be certain what my reaction will be until god actually does appears before me?


Quote
History teaches  the same. For example taking the Moses story where God parted the sea—clearly God showed himself through an amazing miracle. Now what we find next is equally amazing. Instead of the people becoming religious and worshipping God on hands and knees, they actually become something totally opposite. They become corrupt and ‘mad’.
Basically if we consider this story real then we can see what would happen.
I guess something slightly similar happened in Iraq. When the people were free of the tyrant ruler, instead of becoming good the people went on a rampage of looting and killing. (This is just a generalised observation to make my point and Im not getting into the whole politics thing. May be my generalised version is wholly incorrect.)

So its better for God to remain ‘visible’ to only those who truly wants to see him.


Second example --- Look what happened to Jesus (I know perhaps you may not believe he is real; but let imagine he was real). Even after  many people saw his miracles, many just turned away and went against him instead! How odd is that.

To be honest this is what would happen to God if he did appear today.
No amount of his explaining will convince millions to worship him.


Before, you were invoking the question of free will and "robots".  With this part, it sounds like we will not have to worry about free will or becoming "robots".  Which is it?  Do I need to worry about my free will or not?  I cannot respond while you are implying both "yes" and "no" at the same time.


Quote
So should God really perform miracles –yes in exceptional cases where he thinks fit and NO—not for the disbeliveers or to quench some curiosity?


You said at the start that god's miracles doesn't leave behind any evidence.  That being the case, what is the difference between when he does a miracle, and when he doesn't?  The question "should god perform miracles" seems unanswerable in this context.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 12:41:08 AM by Aaron123 »
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2013, 07:24:04 AM »
HI Kiran,

below, in my sig, are links to guides and tutorials.  some of them will help you learn how to use the quote function.  Learning to quote will make your posts more readable for the rest of us and thus, help you to make your points better.  Please utilize this feature.  Thanks. 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2013, 07:56:11 AM »
I think you need to read the rest of that post. Someone else said the same thign and I have given my reply to him if you wish to read it. 

I did.  It did not improve your original explanation.  IN a lot of ways, it made it worse. For example, you said something about souls.  That puts the cart before the horse.  I see no reason to believe in souls.

Quote
You are trying to say losing is limb is somehow irrelevant or doesn't happen because you think there is an "afterlife".
I said none of those things.

Incorrect.  You said all of those things:

The body we have are temporary.
The soul is what goes to God and not this body.
The soul is not handicapped in any way since it cannot be burnt, made wet or cut apart.
The soul is eternal and real to those who believe and so there are no amputees.

All that corresponds with what I said.  It is also preposterous.  There are amputees. To say there are not is not just wrong, but insensitive.

You need to take a step back and take a deep breath. Lets not along this line of false accusation.

Let me give you this piece of advice:  it's probably not a good idea to tell people what they need to do.  Particularly when it is not actually a necessity.  Even more particularly when you are telling someone to "take a deep breath".  I find it offensive.

The accusation is not false.  I believe it is an accurate paraphrase of your position.  If you disagree, you should explain where the differences are.


Im sure youre trying to make some kind of point here :) But what I would say to you is that if you have experienced  Harry Potter helping you in someway and you consider him to be your chosen deity then certainly he will be real to you. There is no doubt about it. You should continue to worship him if you experience him :)

Congratulations.  You have just endorsed delusional thinking and any mental illness that involves halucinations.  When you say Harry Potter will be real to me, you are saying he exists in my imagination.  Why do think it is a good idea to encourage people to deify figments of their imagination?

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2013, 11:31:15 AM »
Oh that is simple.   If you want risk vs reward.   Make non believers more subject to aweful lives.   Let the faithful god fearing man die quietly in his sleep decades beyond the tortured lives lead by atheists and followers of the wrong religions.

Now you still have risk vs reward and you also don't have to torture your faithful.   Each time they sin have bad things happen to them.  Sorta like a dogs shock collar.  As humans we will see these patterns and realize that false religions are false and that god is absolutely real.  It still even requires faith.  Faith that it was not random circumstances that made bad things happen to bad people.

As it is now.  there are wealthy happy atheists and poor tortured devout followers and every flavor in between.  Statistically the religious among us still have about the same mortality stats, pain stats, loss of loved ones before their time, cancer rates, murder rates...

Well that is but for the fact that I have read that atheists have lower encarceration rates per capita by religion.




Think about it in 3rd person - I think ultimately (if) there is only one God (which I am convinced that there is), and he made the entire universe, I think that the only option left is for the people who He made to trust Him and in His greater purpose. What say do they have? Remember (if) my God is real (which I believe He is), he made both pleasure and pain. Why? Why didn't he just make pain?

Risk/reward - I have absolutely nothing to lose.

If this is all that you have ever, for all eternity - this existence - what are you doing in this forum? Don't you want to spend your last breaths enjoying everything you can in this life as there won't be anything after?

I, of course, don't think this way and I think that anyone who takes a leap of faith in this miraculous guy named Jesus will live forever in His kingdom.

But your risk/reward is far greater than my risk/reward. No matter what I happens after I die, I win! If I am right, I win. If I am wrong, who cares?

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2013, 12:36:39 PM »
Congratulations.  You have just endorsed delusional thinking and any mental illness that involves hallucinations.  When you say Harry Potter will be real to me, you are saying he exists in my imagination.  Why do think it is a good idea to encourage people to deify figments of their imagination?

I think it could possibly have some valid psychological function in a Jungian sense, perhaps as a deliberately formulated alternate "voice" to assist in problem-solving.  However, if your imagination conjures up an uncontrolled Other and you cannot see or accept yourself as the creator of that entity, IMO you've definitely crossed into something psychologically undesirable.
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Offline median

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2013, 03:28:15 AM »
All I can say is ‘seek and you shall find’. This I do believe.

You sound like a fast talking salesman at my front door - making claims that you can't backup with evidence. It's an irrational and nonsensical claim this "seek and ye shall find" b/c many of us DID seek and DID NOT find anything (except that religion is bullshit and based in irrational reasoning).

How do you know "seek and ye shall find"?? It's because you read it in the bible and have ASSUMED what you read was true, out of credulity (because you so desperately WANTED to believe). But that isn't a good reason. It's called being gullible and lazy.

What you are saying is exactly the reason why God does not appear.
God generally does not interfere in the lives of humans. If he did then we would all be robots. We all have free will not mention, we have the karma to account for.

How do you know we would all be robots? Who convinced you of this? A pastor, minister, rabbi, or sheik? This is just assuming your position in advance again, without showing HOW you know it's true. On the contrary, a God appearing would not in anyway make us robots. Plenty of people could call this God an asshole and refuse to submit. Sorry, your argument fails. Further, how do you know we have freewill? Just because something SEEMS a certain way (to you) doesn't make it true. There is, and has been, much debate over the subject of freewill. You didn't know that?

God has made it clear that on this earth we are born to both suffer and enjoy.

Please stop making empty claims and start demonstrating how you think you know these things.


What I would say is that people have experiences that are beyond explanations and these are what we term as god experiences.

How do you know they are beyond explanation? This is just another empty claim you are making, and it is quite intellectually lazy. Do you really care whether your beliefs are actually true? Are you at all interested in practicing critical thinking in order to separate fact from fiction?

History teaches  the same. For example taking the Moses story where God parted the sea—clearly God showed himself through an amazing miracle. Now what we find next is equally amazing. Instead of the people becoming religious and worshipping God on hands and knees, they actually become something totally opposite. They become corrupt and ‘mad’.
Basically if we consider this story real then we can see what would happen.

And once again you are being gullible - believing everything you read in old books because someone SOLD you the idea. They convinced you and you accepted it, uncritically. What makes you think this Moses story is true? Why do you think anything supernatural the bible claims is authoritative or true?

So its better for God to remain ‘visible’ to only those who truly wants to see him.

So you admit then that you are only seeing what you want to see?

Second example --- Look what happened to Jesus (I know perhaps you may not believe he is real; but let imagine he was real). Even after  many people saw his miracles, many just turned away and went against him instead! How odd is that.

You're right. I don't think Jesus is (or was) real. And so there is no reason for thinking what the bible says about him is true either (including your argument about people who saw miracles and still "went against him"). The claims are ALL rubbish and there is no good reason to think they are anything more than mythical story telling.

To be honest this is what would happen to God if he did appear today.
No amount of his explaining will convince millions to worship him.
So should God really perform miracles –yes in exceptional cases where he thinks fit and NO—not for the disbeliveers or to quench some curiosity?

Your bible is filled with places where (supposedly) God did a miracle to cause someone to believe. Read your bible!! It seems you do not know what you're talking about here. You do not know what would happen if some God appeared. But what about the angles?! Allegedly, they are in God's presence (including Satan) and guess what?? They still worship him!! And, they (supposedly) have freewill!! Your arguments just don't work.

Karma is difficult to explain here since its neither good or bad. 

No, Karma is difficult for you to explain because it's simply false. There is no reason for thinking there is any such supernatural thing.

I also said I experienced God and this is the reason for my firmness in God. But equally I cannot prove God to others. I can show them way =s so that they too may experience –but I have refrained from saying that.

How do you know you have 'experienced God'?? Subjective/internal human experiences are highly prone to misinterpretation, false diagnoses, and confirmation bias. Do you know what those are? Reinterpreting emotions, feelings, thoughts, are attitudes as "God" doesn't make it a god.

God speaks to you. I believe in a God who is real, who speaks to me and walks and talks with me. Whether you consider that is weird or madness is your choice. But whats important to me is how I see God. I am trying to explain God but without proof I fall flat like everyone else. So all I can ask you to do ‘seek and you shall find’ for yourself.

You sound just like a 5 year old who claims to have an 'invisible friend' who he talks to but can't demonstrate. If God speaks to you then prove it! Demonstrate something miraculous through this "God" speaking to you.

Second, thanks for admitting that you don't have proof (i.e. - evidence) of your God. So, why are you believing in this "thing" when you have no solid evidence for it?
 

What is the mind?
This is beyond my ability to explain to you –so I would urge you to do some research on the websites. Google “Hindu mind” or something and hope you get the answers.
http://hinduism.about.com/od/bookextracts/a/mind.htm

http://www.hinduism.co.za/mind1.htm

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/mind.asp

I've already done my research. I actually hold two college degrees pertaining to these subjects (i.e. - Philosophy). There is much scholarly debate over what the mind actually is. Did you know that?

http://consc.net/guide.html

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2013, 06:33:54 PM »

{Though I'm not seeing any compelling reasons for your beliefs...}
{I can't even understand why you'd believe in an invisible, do-nothing, acts non-existence being.}


Aaron123


When certain events in your life suddenly goes your way most unexpectedly–you begin to wonder—especially after you have prayed for the change and the change took place –as if by some miracle—God helped me out of an impossible situation.

My mind says --It can be nothing else but from God—having grown up and believing in God.
There is no proof for me to show you but how can an experience be shown. It can be discussed and you might come up with some theory of coincidence etc, but they are just your theory and not any different to me theory that God did it.

Therefore I ask you to sincerely and with humility pray to God, not because out of some curiosity but out of sincerer belief.




Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2013, 06:35:54 PM »

{what is the difference between when he does a miracle, and when he doesn't?}


Aaron123

God does miracle because we normally ask him to intervene. A child begging to his father for some toy or chocolate or help getting a ball down from the roof; or help him with a loan, or by a house etc the father cannot do anything but help since the request is sincere.
Does that mean God wont help the son who doesn’t like him. A true father will always help him out when asked to and sometimes even when not. The parable of the prodigal son sums it up I guess.


Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2013, 06:37:45 PM »

[[[I found nothing.]]]
[[That sounded like you were suggusting that we'd all become mindless worshippers. ]]]
[[[How can I be certain what my reaction will be until god actually does appears before me?]]]

Aaron123

Humility will go a long way to achieving any kind of result.


Talk to someone with arrogance, ego, know it all attitude, anger and talk to someone with humility, kindness, love etc and the difference in the responses is clear. This is the difference between seeing god and not seeing god. 


Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2013, 06:39:39 PM »
I'll only comment on the parts directed at me.


[[It is again, telling me why I shouldn't expect anything from god.  Which is the very same as a non-existence god.]]]


Aaron123
 
Those who want nothing will get nothing.
Those who believe will get a lot—Inspiration, a peace of mind. How to live, how to cope with sickness, violence, injustice, truth, joy. Love

Hope when there is no hope. Someone to talk to. Someone to turn to. Moral guidance. charity, a shoulder to cry on and lot more.

Probably a non-worshipper may get all these same from a good Hollywood movie. A fiction and non-fiction books, fairytales, quotes, people they see around them etc.

So whether you believe in God or not the imagination is always used. So nothing wrong in believing in God then. 


Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2013, 06:40:47 PM »
Aaron123

India has a history of spiritual teachers appearing in every age to guide humans about how to live a good life by seeking God.
Many of these spiritual ‘personalities’ have seen God and were always confidence to say it and the people who were around at the time wrote stories and teachings by them. I don’t mean your normal everyday yoga teachers but the real Gurus who were equal in calibre to Jesus.

I mention this for only one reason.
The proof that God exist is proof in their words and actions and teachings. How can I ignore such Gurus?
I have no reason to doubt their words and I have no reason to call them liars. They never bothered to set up movements or created a religion of their own, but naturally followers do make them into great personalities and a sect eventually does grow up after them.
Sai Baba of Shirdi,
Swaminrayan
Ramakrishna Paramhansa,
Jalaram Bapu,
Adi Shankaracharya
Dnyaneshwar
Eknath
Tukaram

These names might mean nothing t you but I wanted to leave you with some names and if you wish you may research about them on the internet.

Then there are other Gurus who are simply great and very learned Teachers.
We don’t have ‘Saints’ and ‘Prophets’. In my opinion.



Then we have the amazing book called “Autobiography of a Yogi” which gives an insight into the lives of Yogis and the miracles they perform and how it works and even shows us their experience of God.
How can I ignore this book which gives me proof of humans who have had great God experiences and seen God.
This book can be read online if you are interested.
Again I mention this because you all ask How can I believe I God.



Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2013, 06:44:19 PM »
I think you need to read the rest of that post. Someone else said the same thign and I have given my reply to him if you wish to read it. 




Quote
  [[All that corresponds with what I said.  It is also preposterous.  There are amputees. To say there are not is not just wrong, but insensitive.]]] 


screwtape


You still misunderstand and misinterpret. The soul is perfect. The body is not. There are no amputee in the soul world. The body is subject to pleasure and pain and we have to learn to live with them and this is what religion teaches us to do. To cope with life. Death of a body is not death to God because the person he knows is still alive and well (souls). Death and sickness is real to us and we seek prayers to God in helping us cope with them.
You have to understand our position of belief and not be closed to it. Then its easy to understand. Im trying to best understand your view point the best I can.



Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2013, 06:51:16 PM »

[[[You sound like a fast talking salesman at my front door - making claims that you can't backup with evidence.]]]

median
Not at all. The proof is to try it yourself. Hence ‘seek and you shall find’.
This is not a sales trick but proof that you could try it yourself.
Off course --How to seek ---is a another question altogether.



(apologies if these quotes dont work out the way they should. Im still learning. First time Im using forums like this.

Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2013, 06:52:51 PM »

[[religion is bullshit and based in irrational reasoning]]

 

median

In you humble opinion.
You cant deny or judge something based on your failures.


Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2013, 06:54:49 PM »

[[[It's because you read it in the bible]]] 

median

I am a Hindu but not that it makes a difference.  I just liked to use those words Jesus spoke because they are so true. As I have said, first you hear about God, then you read about God and finally when you experience God you know you have your proof. All these have happened to me and I cant deny my senses. There is no other logical explanation.


Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2013, 06:55:41 PM »
Hello, Kiran, welcome to WWGHA.  My use of green boldface indicates that I am speaking as a moderator and not as a participant in the discussion.

You appear to be having some difficulty using the quoting function.  I suggest you use the "preview" button to ensure that your posts are appearing properly before you post them.  You might also want to use the "Test Area", which is set aside especially for fooling around with the various forum functions, such as quoting and embedding images, to make sure you know how to use them correctly.  The Test Area is here:


http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,28.0.html
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2013, 07:07:37 PM »
[[How do you know we would all be robots?]]

median

That should have read like Robots.
If someone controls our every will then we are like ‘robots.’
That’s all that was meant by that. It was point made to say why God does not control us.









[[Further, how do you know we have freewill?]]

Even if everything was predestined (as many people sometimes  claim) then know that according to Hindu philosophy we still have free will to change the course of our destiny by what you do today. If your result of where you are today was because of your actions and thoughts in he past then just imagine how you be what you want to be in the future. 
You decide what and where you want to go.





[[I said --“God has made it clear that on this earth we are born to both suffer and enjoy.”
You are saying
Please stop making empty claims and start demonstrating how you think you know these things.]]
 

[[How do you know they are beyond explanation?]]

Trust me they are. You may choose to give it a name like coincidence or fate or luck or chance or whatever—but I choose to call it ‘help from God’—especially when I have asked for – ask and you shall receive. 





[[Are you at all interested in practicing critical thinking in order to separate fact from fiction?]]

OK so how is some grand explanation going to help me any differently? Fact or Fiction the difference to my life has been made.
People talk of freedom of ‘free will’ yet here you are directly and indirectly trying to control what I should be thinking and not thinking.

If your logic does let you believe in a God then Im not going to force you to believe. A question was asked and I responded. Please don’t compare me to those other preachers and people who try to convert others. Off course they are free to tell me about their way of life only if I am interested in listening. Likewise you don’t have to listen to what I believe.




[[What makes you think this Moses story is true?]]

That’s why I also gave a modern comparative about the after event of the Iran war where people went mad instead of celebrating freedom from bondage. Neither the Law of the land nor God in this instance was good enough to control many of them.






[[So you admit then that you are only seeing what you want to see?]] 


Yes –we all see ONLY what we want to see from our life experiences and beliefs and nature and level of understanding.









[[mythical story telling.]]


Mythical stories have been the backbones of many teachings for righteous living and morality. There is nothing wrong in that. You should try reading Hinduism.
Off course its not for everyone but its still valid in today’s society for millions because they are still inspired by these stories.








[[But what about the angles?! Allegedly, they are in God's presence (including Satan) and guess what?? They still worship him!! And, they (supposedly) have freewill!! Your arguments just don't work.]]


In Hinduism we don’t have satan but there were stories of powerful beings who used their powers for the bad. And yes these very powerful beings got their powers from God by asking him for it.
When a man worships him with a single pointed mind and devotion then he can do nothing but appear before that man (even though knowing that they will use the powers against him).
If a son begs from his mother for some money, the mother might guess that he will use it to buy drugs or  hopes he might not, but if the son is persistent enough, the mothers heart will melt and give him the money knowing the possible outcome.



Karma is not supernatural. It’s a simple Law that ‘every action has a reaction’.






[[Reinterpreting emotions, feelings, thoughts, are attitudes as "God" doesn't make it a god.]] 

OK lets say you are right. May be you are right.
But to me --it sure has helped me a lot in my life  --believing that these emotions, feelings, thoughts are ‘God experiences’.
Isn’t God wonderful?

 





[[If God speaks to you then prove it!]]

I just did. Im telling you about it. I cant connect you to my mind –yet! So you too can har him with me  (technology hasn’t yet a way of doing that—but Im sure they will oneday).

As I said before, we all get inspirations from somewhere-be it a Hollywood film or some fictional/non-fictional novel or some quotes or fairytales or life experiences.

Let me put it another way. I have a thought and I say that thought is God talking. You say its only your inner mind talking. At the end of the day—the thought does not change –whether God said it or the mind said it.




[[So, why are you believing in this "thing" when you have no solid evidence for it?]] 

Personal Experiences.




[[There is much scholarly debate over what the mind actually is. Did you know that?]]


Yes. The Hindu rishis debated this 5,000 years ago and set their conclusions is in the Vedas and Upanishads.
I have read only extracts of these great works. 

So many links again Im sure if you Google ‘Hindu thought on the mind’



[[I actually hold two college degrees]]
One does not require many degrees to seek God or know God or hear God.
Simple prayers will suffice. 




Offline kiran

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2013, 07:12:17 PM »
Thank you pianodwarf

I'll experiment first.
I havent used anythign like this at all and its all new to me.
My apologies.


But you'll have to forgive me if I still get it wrong :) and I may have to leave this forum :(.
(at least I can do the smily faces :) right )

Kiran


Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2013, 07:15:39 PM »
Thank you pianodwarf

I'll experiment first.
I havent used anythign like this at all and its all new to me.
My apologies.

No trouble at all... the code can be a little tricky to learn.  If you need help, don't be afraid to ask.  If I'm not available, someone else will certainly show you how it works.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2013, 08:10:40 PM »
Kiran,
 I may have missed it.  How do you define god? - for you - what do you picture the god you believe in to be?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 08:15:09 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2013, 08:51:14 PM »
Kiran is Hindu...

Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2013, 12:32:53 AM »
Oh that is simple.   If you want risk vs reward.   Make non believers more subject to aweful lives.   Let the faithful god fearing man die quietly in his sleep decades beyond the tortured lives lead by atheists and followers of the wrong religions. [snipped]

Note:  'God' used to do this... Tower of Babel, Snakes at Mt Sini, Pillar of salt.  The bible tells of the direct effect of sinning, and demonstrates god's wrath.  Why'd he stop?  (answer: He didn't.  Those are just stories.  'God' never did anything  :).  I'm pretty sure you're aware of that, but I just wanted to emphasize it)

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2013, 01:18:40 AM »
When certain events in your life suddenly goes your way most unexpectedly–you begin to wonder—especially after you have prayed for the change and the change took place –as if by some miracle—God helped me out of an impossible situation.

This is just an argument from incredulity.

Quote
My mind says --It can be nothing else but from God—having grown up and believing in God.
There is no proof for me to show you but how can an experience be shown. It can be discussed and you might come up with some theory of coincidence etc, but they are just your theory and not any different to me theory that God did it.

Argument from incredulity.

Try this link if you're unfamilar with the expression.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

Quote
Therefore I ask you to sincerely and with humility pray to God, not because out of some curiosity but out of sincerer belief.

I do not have belief in your god, or any other.  Thus, it is impossible for me to pray "sincerely".  Mind you, I could do the act of prayer, but to me, it would be little more than talking to the air.  I'm not trying to be smarmy here, that's actually how it would be for me.


Quote
God does miracle because we normally ask him to intervene. A child begging to his father for some toy or chocolate or help getting a ball down from the roof; or help him with a loan, or by a house etc the father cannot do anything but help since the request is sincere.
Does that mean God wont help the son who doesn’t like him. A true father will always help him out when asked to and sometimes even when not. The parable of the prodigal son sums it up I guess.

This doesn't answer the question I asked.  At one point, you appeared to be saying that god's mircales are undetectable.  That being the case, what's the difference between when he does, and doesn't do one?


Quote
Humility will go a long way to achieving any kind of result.


Talk to someone with arrogance, ego, know it all attitude, anger and talk to someone with humility, kindness, love etc and the difference in the responses is clear. This is the difference between seeing god and not seeing god. 

This has nothing to do with the quotes of mine that you're "responding" to.  I put "responding" in quotetation marks because, well... you didn't really address the points I was making.


Quote
Those who want nothing will get nothing.
Those who believe will get a lot—Inspiration, a peace of mind. How to live, how to cope with sickness, violence, injustice, truth, joy. Love

Hope when there is no hope. Someone to talk to. Someone to turn to. Moral guidance. charity, a shoulder to cry on and lot more.

Probably a non-worshipper may get all these same from a good Hollywood movie. A fiction and non-fiction books, fairytales, quotes, people they see around them etc.

So whether you believe in God or not the imagination is always used. So nothing wrong in believing in God then. 

This does nothing to address the quote of mine that you're "responding" to.


Quote
India has a history of spiritual teachers appearing in every age to guide humans about how to live a good life by seeking God.
Many of these spiritual ‘personalities’ have seen God and were always confidence to say it and the people who were around at the time wrote stories and teachings by them. I don’t mean your normal everyday yoga teachers but the real Gurus who were equal in calibre to Jesus.

What does "seen god" means?


Quote
I mention this for only one reason.
The proof that God exist is proof in their words and actions and teachings. How can I ignore such Gurus?
I have no reason to doubt their words and I have no reason to call them liars. They never bothered to set up movements or created a religion of their own, but naturally followers do make them into great personalities and a sect eventually does grow up after them.

In short, your credulity was out in full force.  Nothing was done to double-check or verifiy their words.


Quote
Then we have the amazing book called “Autobiography of a Yogi” which gives an insight into the lives of Yogis and the miracles they perform and how it works and even shows us their experience of God.
How can I ignore this book which gives me proof of humans who have had great God experiences and seen God.


What is meant by "miracles" and "experience of god"?  Seems to me that you should be explaining these things here.  Though at this point, I can't say I'm expecting much.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline shnozzola

Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2013, 11:39:52 AM »
Kiran is Hindu...

Yes.  From what I understand, Hindu belief in a god can be expressed as "god is the entire universe" to a chosen personal god, such as Krishna.  Am I correct?

I was wondering how Kiran defines god.  Funny how, even within religions, we determine what choice we make as a definition.  Probably, even different practicing Hindus may surprise each other with their own definition, even without judgement.   Oh well, probably should be a separate thread anyway.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 11:41:33 AM by shnozzola »
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Offline JesseWSellers

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Re: Why wont God Heal Amputees? Because He wants to heal their hearts...
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2013, 12:02:11 PM »
How do you KNOW that God doesn't heal amputees?  The only way you could know this is if you were to investigate every amputee who has ever lived and is now living, to determine whether or not God has healed them.  The assumption is, because you don't know of any amputees that God has healed, He doesn't heal amputees. Secondly, how do you define "heal"?  In your apparently narrow definition, "heal" seems to mean "restore that which was amputated."  However, can "healing" not be brought about in other ways?  I can think of several off the top of my head.  Since I am new here, and this is only my third post, I will reserve further discussion for a later time and post, but I do see bit of "begging the question" in the contention that God doesn't heal amputees, therefore there is no God.