Author Topic: Question [#2729]  (Read 567 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Question [#2729]
« on: March 18, 2013, 04:18:29 PM »
Hi! I stumbled across your website today and had a question...I was reading the article "Understanding Jesus" and was wondering what your thoughts are on Luke 23:34 ("Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do") and Luke 23:43 (when he tells the criminal hanging beside him "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise)? Do you think Jesus is loving his enemies here? I was also wondering if, by the definition on your page, it is possible not to be a jerk? I don't think I know anybody, even good people, who has not done a single one of those things. Finally, how many times have you read through the Bible? Thanks for your time!
~[name removed]
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Nick

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Re: Question [#2729]
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2013, 04:50:49 PM »
Reading through that thing is cruel and unusual punishment.  I'll just watch the mini series on the history channel.  You know the one with Obama as the devil.  I'm sure everyting I need to know is there.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Question [#2729]
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2013, 05:06:54 PM »
Since most of us here on this site don't think Jesus existed, his thinking process and expectations and such aren't too relevant. Since they didn't happen.

The Christian interpretation of things Jesus supposedly said are open to interpretation. Hence, we have many different denominations. Some of which formed because of someones new interpretation of the teachings in question.

I find it somewhat ironic that the people who constantly reinterpret the bible for their own enjoyment often are the ones who claim that something can't come from nothing. Even though they've made something out of nothing for 2,000 years.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Question [#2729]
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2013, 10:52:52 AM »
Even if there was an actual person who served as the model for the Biblical Jesus, it's unbelievable that the depiction in the Gospels is at all representative of him.  Even assuming there were no conscious efforts to clean things up and make him larger than life (which is itself not really believable), not a single one of the Gospels was written until long after his presumed death.  Human memory is not static; it changes as we use it.  So even if the actual writers of the Gospels were able to talk to the disciples, there's no real chance that they (generally poor and uneducated men in awe of their teacher) could have kept things from getting skewed and slanted in their memories.  Not even trained observers can manage that over a long period of time, when relating things that happened years or decades in the past.

Most likely, though, early Christians made lots of changes to the scriptures in order to answer objections from nonbelievers.  And to bring the various stories more in line with each other, so that the Gospels were more consistent (thus to provide less fodder for criticism).  And, of course, they had to try to make Jesus fit the numerous prophecies in the Old Testament (which, oddly enough, the Jews didn't accept).  And they had to show that Jesus was divine in nature, rather than just being a man, so they could show that their belief was superior to other religious beliefs (such as Greco-Roman ones, which had lots of divine/semi-divine actors).

The more a person actually examines the Bible, and examines the history of Christianity (especially the early history, before the Council of Nicea decided what was to be Christian scripture and what wasn't), the less believable it all becomes.  But that's really the point.  The Bible isn't there to make a factual, intellectual case for Christianity, it's there to provide lots of stirring, inspiring stories so that people will simply accept it, rather than examining it.  Just like most holy books and mythological stories, really.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Question [#2729]
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2013, 03:36:50 AM »
Do I think Jesus is loving his enemies?  An author can have the characters he's writing do anything he wants them to. So in the spirit of the story, I'll say no. The Jesus character is not loving his enemies.

The poor saps getting crucified next to him are not his enemies, and so are irrelevant. It's the supposed existence and utility of hell that shows that the Jesus character does not love his enemies. If even one person ends up in said hell, then love is not a part of the Jesus equation. Only if the supposed hell is empty, and thus utterly useless and unnecessary, is the claim of the Jesus character loving his enemies rendered logically consistent.
Denis Loubet

Offline Chronos

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Re: Question [#2729]
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2013, 05:38:15 AM »
Hi! I stumbled across your website today and had a question...I was reading the article "Understanding Jesus" and was wondering what your thoughts are on Luke 23:34 ("Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do") and Luke 23:43 (when he tells the criminal hanging beside him "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise)? Do you think Jesus is loving his enemies here?

I do not recognize any bible as a valid document worthy of discussion. It is an assemblage of disconnected and often inconsistent stories recorded by unknown men from well over 2,000 years ago. If you find any writings from that period to be worthwhile in proving that a god may exist, then you have a lot of intellectual maturing to do. Those scribblings are, at best, forms of poetry.


I was also wondering if, by the definition on your page, it is possible not to be a jerk? I don't think I know anybody, even good people, who has not done a single one of those things. Finally, how many times have you read through the Bible? Thanks for your time!
~[name removed]

I take by your question the implication that we are jerks. Nobody forced you to read the book. You chose to do that by your own "free will". This book was not left in your mailbox, on your doorstep or under the wiper on your windshield. It was not found in the drawer of a nightstand at a hotel (though I think a few of our members have attempted to do this). It was not posted above a urinal in a bathroom at a bar, nor was it forced into your hand at an airport by someone who shaved his/her head while wearing a "toga". Finally, no one was on the street shouting at you when you left your school, mall, workplace, hospital, abortion clinic or religious institution.

I am not sure which "things" you refer to when you say you don't know anybody who has done them. Do you care to elaborate?


John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Online Graybeard

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Re: Question [#2729]
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2013, 06:58:49 PM »
Hi! I stumbled across your website today and had a question...I was reading the article "Understanding Jesus" and was wondering what your thoughts are on Luke 23:34 ("Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do") and Luke 23:43 (when he tells the criminal hanging beside him "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise)? Do you think Jesus is loving his enemies here?

I see you have ignored Jesus's words in the other gospels, that turn out to be quite different. However, to answer your question:

Luke 23:34 ("Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do") = Here Jesus displays a poor knowledge of the law. If the people did not know what they were doing, then how can anyone be blamed for it? How could they have an intent? How could they be His enemy?

For example, if you walk into a dark room and flick on the light switch, then someone falls down dead because they were repairing the wiring in the dark, do you need to be forgiven? Did you do anything wrong? Or did you "know not what you did"? And are therefore not guilty of any crime? You are certainly not "their enemy, are you?

The thief on the cross was not Jesus's enemy. He just happened to be there at the time.

So, "Do I think Jesus is loving his enemies here?" - No. He was not.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Online Jag

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Re: Question [#2729]
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2013, 07:43:24 PM »
... wondering what your thoughts are on Luke 23:34 ("Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do")
~[name removed]

Well, keeping in mind all the barbaric horrors leading up to this passage, I thought it was more like a plea to a violent sociopath to stop punishing it's followers for not knowing better.

Or hey, maybe it was kinda like "God, damn it, this is really YOUR fault, so stop with the overreacting already! Jeez!"

actually, both of those seem to fit better than Jesus loving his enemies. Sounded more like defending them to me.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Nam

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Re: Question [#2729]
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2013, 09:33:25 PM »
Hi! I stumbled across your website today and had a question...I was reading the article "Understanding Jesus" and was wondering what your thoughts are on Luke 23:34 ("Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do") and Luke 23:43 (when he tells the criminal hanging beside him "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise)? Do you think Jesus is loving his enemies here? I was also wondering if, by the definition on your page, it is possible not to be a jerk? I don't think I know anybody, even good people, who has not done a single one of those things.

i am never a jerk to people...asshole, well, that's another story. but it has nothing to do with being an atheist.

Quote
Finally, how many times have you read through the Bible? Thanks for your time!

Read through it? Probably hundreds of times. Actually read it? 14 times (mainly different versions). Also the Quran and The Book of Mormon.

Though I am trying to forget all of it.

You?

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Question [#2729]
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2013, 08:15:35 AM »
Hi! I stumbled across your website today and had a question...I was reading the article "Understanding Jesus" and was wondering what your thoughts are on Luke 23:34 ("Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do") and Luke 23:43 (when he tells the criminal hanging beside him "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise)? Do you think Jesus is loving his enemies here? I was also wondering if, by the definition on your page, it is possible not to be a jerk? I don't think I know anybody, even good people, who has not done a single one of those things. Finally, how many times have you read through the Bible? Thanks for your time!
~[name removed]

How many time have you read throught the egyptian books of the dead? the Illiad? Every other holuYbook for every other religion?

So tell me, why do you reject them and accept your own?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 10:12:34 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Tero

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Re: Question [#2729]
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2013, 09:56:27 AM »
>>I was also wondering if, by the definition on your page, it is possible not to be a jerk? I don't think I know anybody, even good people, who has not done a single one of those things. Finally, how ...<<

By pointing out that god does mot cure amputees, the founders of the forum are jerks? Why?

The rest of your letter made no sense.

I read the 4 Gospels a few years back. It was not helpful, Jesus remained a legend. His followers are dim and cartoonish props. I did not find but the description of s man who talked of kindness. We still have those people.