Author Topic: Historical Event of the Well-known Miraculous Healing of Amputee Miguel [#2728]  (Read 2706 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Thank you for pondering such an important question about miraculous
healing and God's intervention.  Unfortunately, I regret that you and
your associates are not knowledgeable about a well-known miraculous
healing of the amputee Miguel Juan Delisare.  This recorded miracle
is, in fact, well known in Spain. It took place through the
intercession of Our Lady (Mary, the Mother of God) and the promise
that she made to St. James the Apostle at Zaragoza, Spain during the
first recorded Marian Apparition in the history of the Church. Here is
the documented historical event:

On March 29, 1640, two years after Miguel Juan Delisare's leg had been
amputated by an accomplished surgeon Juan D'Estanga, Miguel was
awakened by his parents who said they saw angels at Miguel's bed.
Miguel told his parents that he had dreamed of being at the Church of
La Pilarita (Church of Our Lady of Zaragoza) and anointing one of the
lamps in her honor as he used to do before when he could walk. He and
his parents were astonished to see that his leg had been fully
restored with only the scar remaining where the surgeon had previously
severed his leg as proof of the miracle. The whole town saw him and
went to church with him to give praise and thanks. He was examined by
physicians, and witnesses were gathered who testified to the events.
After a lengthy investigation, on April 27, 1641, the archbishop Pedro
Apolara pronounced the leg fully restored by a phenomenon beyond all
natural powers. This verdict was signed by the Vicar General, the
Archdeacon, Senior Professor of Canon Law and provincials of other
orders.

I hope this helps.  You can research the event for yourself and learn
more about the Marian Apparition and the Basilica of Our Lady of the
Pillar.

Take care,
[name removed]
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online One Above All

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Offline Aaron123

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Funny how the possibility that the stories are either made up or faked never seem to get brought up.  What's more likely?  That this one time, a magical healing occured, or that someone faked being amputated?

Not to mention, even if this story is genuine, that's only 1 out of... what, 1,000,000 or so amputees that ever existed.  Why are we suppose to be impressed?  Especially since this story takes place over 300 years ago.  Sounds like the site's question still applies, other than modifying it to "other than that one time he did heal someone, while not giving a rat's ass about the thousand or so other amputees living at the time."
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Offline Nick

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I think we saw a pic of this healing  about a year or 2 ago.  One leg was white, the other black in the drawing.  God must have had a good chuckle over that. ;)
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Online jaimehlers

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You're talking about the Miracle of Calanda, the healing of Miguel Juan Pellicer, which has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

Among the other highlights of this "miraculous healing", Pellicer claimed that his leg was extremely gangrenous upon his arrival at Zaragoza, more than 50 days after his accident.  This is so improbable that it isn't even worth considering; gangrene in a severe injury sets in within 3-5 days, and you die from sepsis no more than a few days after that.  If Pellicer's injury had been so severe as to require amputation, it would have been done either at Castellon, where his injury took place, or at Valenica, where he spend several days being treated upon his arrival from Castellon, more than 60 kilometers distant.

Most likely, the man decided to claim that his leg had been amputated after he discovered that begging was easier with a missing leg rather than a broken one, and only claimed that it had been healed when his ruse was discovered.  This 'miracle' doesn't require a miraculous explanation in the first place, no matter what Catholic officials at the time said.

Offline Seppuku

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There's a number of possibilities as to the origin of this story and why it's fictitious. There are many tales of legend, which are of a fictitious nature, one should this one be any different? I mean, we don't believe Jack bought magical beans, which created a giant beanstalk, which led him to face a giant. I might have believed the story when I was 5, but I would be no means consider the story to be a well known fact, rather, just a well known story. Unfortunately, it seems given its religious context it is taken to be of some religious significance. It could well be this bloke was a scam artist, I mean Christ, we get them today and showmen who stage faith healings who are basically bad stage magicians.

I bet a faith healer could create a situation where he heals the leg of an amputee convincingly to the believers. If you believe something, it makes it easier for that something to manipulate you. When you're sceptical, it's easier to see the holes.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Yeah, it's a hoax.  (Was a hoax.  Whatever.)  Brian Dunning of "Skeptoid" deconstructed it some time ago.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4247
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline shnozzola



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I have...I have legs
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« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 05:42:06 PM by shnozzola »
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Online jaimehlers

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schnozzola:  Pretty much.  Amazing what someone will claim when they're caught at a scam like that.

Offline Tonus

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I think it's telling that in response to the question "why won't god heal amputees?" the best response they can muster is "he did... back in 1640."

Offline mrbiscoop

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Nothing new here. Move along folks.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Even if it were true, one healing does not a trend make. It's not like we're asking "Why won't god heal that one amputee over there in the corner.com"

I had a miraculous healing once. When I found out that there was going to be a birthday party in school the next day, with cake, I got well fast. Thank the lord.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Chronos

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Thank you for pondering such an important question about miraculous
healing and God's intervention.  Unfortunately, I regret that you and
your associates are not knowledgeable about a well-known miraculous
healing of the amputee Miguel Juan Delisare ... On March 29, 1640 ...

Hahahahaha!  Oh my, that's a good one! At least you are not like your brethren who always know of some African who was healed of his amputated limb while on a mission back in 1992 or something. You didn't even bother to make it a recent event. Kudos!

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Hatter23

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I think it's telling that in response to the question "why won't god heal amputees?" the best response they can muster is "he did... back in 1640."
or at least we heard about him doing so.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline natlegend

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Yeeeeeah, riiiiiiiight...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline Nam

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1640? I can come up with arbitrary numbers too and then write down something. Doesn't make it true but to a person like you...well, it's good enough.

Idiots.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Anfauglir

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Quote from: Believer#2728
.....Miguel Juan Delisare's leg (was) amputated by an accomplished surgeon Juan D'Estanga.....

This is the key to the issue.  Having read pianodwarf's link, the testimony of D'Estanga is significant by its absence from the documents surrounding this case.  I'm presuming that you have unearthed new evidence that confirms he actually carried out an amputation?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline JeromeCannon

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Thank you for pondering such an important question about miraculous
healing and God's intervention.  Unfortunately, I regret that you and
your associates are not knowledgeable about a well-known miraculous
healing of the amputee Miguel Juan Delisare.  This recorded miracle
is, in fact, well known in Spain. It took place through the
intercession of Our Lady (Mary, the Mother of God) and the promise
that she made to St. James the Apostle at Zaragoza, Spain during the
first recorded Marian Apparition in the history of the Church. Here is
the documented historical event:

On March 29, 1640, two years after Miguel Juan Delisare's leg had been
amputated by an accomplished surgeon Juan D'Estanga, Miguel was
awakened by his parents who said they saw angels at Miguel's bed.
Miguel told his parents that he had dreamed of being at the Church of
La Pilarita (Church of Our Lady of Zaragoza) and anointing one of the
lamps in her honor as he used to do before when he could walk. He and
his parents were astonished to see that his leg had been fully
restored with only the scar remaining where the surgeon had previously
severed his leg as proof of the miracle. The whole town saw him and
went to church with him to give praise and thanks. He was examined by
physicians, and witnesses were gathered who testified to the events.
After a lengthy investigation, on April 27, 1641, the archbishop Pedro
Apolara pronounced the leg fully restored by a phenomenon beyond all
natural powers. This verdict was signed by the Vicar General, the
Archdeacon, Senior Professor of Canon Law and provincials of other
orders.

I hope this helps.  You can research the event for yourself and learn
more about the Marian Apparition and the Basilica of Our Lady of the
Pillar.

Take care,
[name removed]

It really helped a lot.. I will love to search bit more on this and then will post my own review

Offline G-Roll

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UFO 'battle' over Nuremberg, Germany in 1561
At sunrise on the 14th April 1561, the citizens of Nuremberg beheld "A very frightful spectacle." The sky appeared to fill with cylindrical objects from which red, black, orange and blue white disks and globes emerged. Crosses and tubes resembling cannon barrels also appeared whereupon the objects promptly "began to fight one another." This event is depicted in a famous 16th century woodcut by Hans Glaser.
Recorded in the Nuremberg Gazette
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case486.htm

Here are 8 different paintings of aliens interacting with humans and with Jesus. Dated from as far back as 1300s to the 1700s
http://mysteryufosaliens.webs.com/aliensancientpictures.htm

Quote
The most obvious clues to an extraterrestrial visit long ago are found in the drawings of ancient cultures. One such drawing is located inside a cave in Kimberly Mountain, a peak on the western side of Australia. Haunting the surface of the cave walls are paintings of several beings with round heads and huge black eyes. Calling the figures in the paintings the Wondjina, the Aborigines consider the beings extremely sacred. The Wondjina, originally drawn in some period between ten thousand to thirty thousand years ago, bear little resemblance to any known earth creature. However, the Wondjina slightly resemble the gray type of aliens reported today by alleged alien abductees. The Wondjina and the Grays look similiar because they both have large, black eyes and a pear-shaped head. Therefore, it is possible that the Wondjina are actually aliens seen by the Aborigines a long time ago. In the Sahara desert, another strange figure painted on the wall of a cave, the "Great Martian God", is located in the Tassili mountains. It was called the "Great Martian God" because it resembled Martians found in comic books. Discovered by Henri Lhote on an expedition after World War II into the mountains, the Martian, along with similiar nearby drawings depicting space men are drawn in a much larger scale than the nearby drawings of people, animals, and ones of Egyptian influence.
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc156.htm

Here are 3 links that PROVE aliens existed thousands of years ago. They CLEARLY interacted with the people of that time and historical records are present to back up all of these events.
If one believes that an amputee was healed by God, Mother Mary, or Jesus back in the 1600s then one must surely see the proof that aliens clearly existed during that time as well. After all the "proof" of both is there for all eyes to see... right?
Of course the "proof" is there for Big Foot, Nessie, the Wampus Cat, elves, and probably vampires as well. I guess one would have to be crazy not to follow the evidence and reach the logical conclusion that God, aliens, Big Foot, The Wampus Cat, Lochness, elves, and reasonable honest politicians do indeed exists.

Offline Jontom10

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So... HE gave an amputee a new leg back in 1640. A period in history renowned for it's accurate and non biased recording of historical (hysterical?) religious events.

But only the one. I wonder why.

Maybe it was because HE was embarrassed that he did such shoddy work by leaving a scar? Bit of a bodge not becoming of the Lord and creator of everything. Doesn't do anymore limb regrowths because it may draw attention to HIM being dead crap at repairs or something.

Bollox!!
Hasa Diga Eebowai