Author Topic: Historical Event of the Well-known Miraculous Healing of Amputee Miguel [#2728]  (Read 428 times)

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Online pianodwarf

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Thank you for pondering such an important question about miraculous
healing and God's intervention.  Unfortunately, I regret that you and
your associates are not knowledgeable about a well-known miraculous
healing of the amputee Miguel Juan Delisare.  This recorded miracle
is, in fact, well known in Spain. It took place through the
intercession of Our Lady (Mary, the Mother of God) and the promise
that she made to St. James the Apostle at Zaragoza, Spain during the
first recorded Marian Apparition in the history of the Church. Here is
the documented historical event:

On March 29, 1640, two years after Miguel Juan Delisare's leg had been
amputated by an accomplished surgeon Juan D'Estanga, Miguel was
awakened by his parents who said they saw angels at Miguel's bed.
Miguel told his parents that he had dreamed of being at the Church of
La Pilarita (Church of Our Lady of Zaragoza) and anointing one of the
lamps in her honor as he used to do before when he could walk. He and
his parents were astonished to see that his leg had been fully
restored with only the scar remaining where the surgeon had previously
severed his leg as proof of the miracle. The whole town saw him and
went to church with him to give praise and thanks. He was examined by
physicians, and witnesses were gathered who testified to the events.
After a lengthy investigation, on April 27, 1641, the archbishop Pedro
Apolara pronounced the leg fully restored by a phenomenon beyond all
natural powers. This verdict was signed by the Vicar General, the
Archdeacon, Senior Professor of Canon Law and provincials of other
orders.

I hope this helps.  You can research the event for yourself and learn
more about the Marian Apparition and the Basilica of Our Lady of the
Pillar.

Take care,
[name removed]
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online One Above All

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.

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Online Aaron123

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Funny how the possibility that the stories are either made up or faked never seem to get brought up.  What's more likely?  That this one time, a magical healing occured, or that someone faked being amputated?

Not to mention, even if this story is genuine, that's only 1 out of... what, 1,000,000 or so amputees that ever existed.  Why are we suppose to be impressed?  Especially since this story takes place over 300 years ago.  Sounds like the site's question still applies, other than modifying it to "other than that one time he did heal someone, while not giving a rat's ass about the thousand or so other amputees living at the time."
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Nick

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I think we saw a pic of this healing  about a year or 2 ago.  One leg was white, the other black in the drawing.  God must have had a good chuckle over that. ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline jaimehlers

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You're talking about the Miracle of Calanda, the healing of Miguel Juan Pellicer, which has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

Among the other highlights of this "miraculous healing", Pellicer claimed that his leg was extremely gangrenous upon his arrival at Zaragoza, more than 50 days after his accident.  This is so improbable that it isn't even worth considering; gangrene in a severe injury sets in within 3-5 days, and you die from sepsis no more than a few days after that.  If Pellicer's injury had been so severe as to require amputation, it would have been done either at Castellon, where his injury took place, or at Valenica, where he spend several days being treated upon his arrival from Castellon, more than 60 kilometers distant.

Most likely, the man decided to claim that his leg had been amputated after he discovered that begging was easier with a missing leg rather than a broken one, and only claimed that it had been healed when his ruse was discovered.  This 'miracle' doesn't require a miraculous explanation in the first place, no matter what Catholic officials at the time said.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline Seppuku

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There's a number of possibilities as to the origin of this story and why it's fictitious. There are many tales of legend, which are of a fictitious nature, one should this one be any different? I mean, we don't believe Jack bought magical beans, which created a giant beanstalk, which led him to face a giant. I might have believed the story when I was 5, but I would be no means consider the story to be a well known fact, rather, just a well known story. Unfortunately, it seems given its religious context it is taken to be of some religious significance. It could well be this bloke was a scam artist, I mean Christ, we get them today and showmen who stage faith healings who are basically bad stage magicians.

I bet a faith healer could create a situation where he heals the leg of an amputee convincingly to the believers. If you believe something, it makes it easier for that something to manipulate you. When you're sceptical, it's easier to see the holes.
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
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Online pianodwarf

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Yeah, it's a hoax.  (Was a hoax.  Whatever.)  Brian Dunning of "Skeptoid" deconstructed it some time ago.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4247
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline shnozzola

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Quote
I have...I have legs
Glory be to God. Praise Jesus.
Ah, beautiful. Listen... I can't thank you.

First Moses, now this. God, Jesus...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 05:42:06 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline jaimehlers

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schnozzola:  Pretty much.  Amazing what someone will claim when they're caught at a scam like that.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline Tonus

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I think it's telling that in response to the question "why won't god heal amputees?" the best response they can muster is "he did... back in 1640."

Offline mrbiscoop

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Nothing new here. Move along folks.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Even if it were true, one healing does not a trend make. It's not like we're asking "Why won't god heal that one amputee over there in the corner.com"

I had a miraculous healing once. When I found out that there was going to be a birthday party in school the next day, with cake, I got well fast. Thank the lord.
The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what's to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. - Penn Jillette

Offline Chronos

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Thank you for pondering such an important question about miraculous
healing and God's intervention.  Unfortunately, I regret that you and
your associates are not knowledgeable about a well-known miraculous
healing of the amputee Miguel Juan Delisare ... On March 29, 1640 ...

Hahahahaha!  Oh my, that's a good one! At least you are not like your brethren who always know of some African who was healed of his amputated limb while on a mission back in 1992 or something. You didn't even bother to make it a recent event. Kudos!

@chronosft / 15 till 3 / Faith is nothing more than hope with a gambling addiction

Offline Hatter23

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I think it's telling that in response to the question "why won't god heal amputees?" the best response they can muster is "he did... back in 1640."
or at least we heard about him doing so.
Most theist/atheist arguments tend to boil down to this: Theists quote scriptures as if they were facts and atheists cite facts as if they were facts.

Offline natlegend

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Yeeeeeah, riiiiiiiight...
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WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?
No, seriously, where is he, I'd really like to know.

Offline Nam

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1640? I can come up with arbitrary numbers too and then write down something. Doesn't make it true but to a person like you...well, it's good enough.

Idiots.

-Nam
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Your foot pierced by a rusty nail" -- Eresto Trejo

Offline Anfauglir

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Quote from: Believer#2728
.....Miguel Juan Delisare's leg (was) amputated by an accomplished surgeon Juan D'Estanga.....

This is the key to the issue.  Having read pianodwarf's link, the testimony of D'Estanga is significant by its absence from the documents surrounding this case.  I'm presuming that you have unearthed new evidence that confirms he actually carried out an amputation?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.