Author Topic: LOL moment on the United Church site  (Read 577 times)

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Offline Azdgari

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LOL moment on the United Church site
« on: March 02, 2013, 04:10:46 PM »
So, I was actually defending one religious point of view as making more sense than another on one of their threads.  Their member "Chansen" is the more fiery one and I let him get into more real arguments.  But this just made me chuckle.  My starting comment for this exchange was at the top, saying how a requirement to believe in order to be "saved" is a works-based salvation principle.  Because it requires the person to do something.  Then after a brief exchange with their resident troll "Saul-now-Paul", airclean33 responded, and I lol'd.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 04:12:33 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline carstensenscott

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Re: LOL moment on the United Church site
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2013, 12:40:56 AM »
So WT2 was airclean33's response?

Offline The Gawd

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Re: LOL moment on the United Church site
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2013, 12:49:39 AM »
is there a lank?

Offline Azdgari

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Re: LOL moment on the United Church site
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2013, 01:42:44 AM »
Yeah I really thought I'd put a link in originally.  Epic fail.  Here's the page in question:
http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/religion-and-faith/resting-jesus-finished-works?page=5
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: LOL moment on the United Church site
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2013, 10:47:34 AM »
my brain hurts reading some posts on that forum
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Offline anthony_retford

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Re: LOL moment on the United Church site
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2013, 12:29:35 PM »
What the hell is that forum?
Clearly the posters cannot write coherent sentences.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: LOL moment on the United Church site
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2013, 01:32:46 PM »
It's a mixed bag of members, for sure.  Some, like "revjohn", are extremely articulate and courteous.  Others, like "saul-not-paul", are basically trolls.  Airclean33 and unsafe are mentally challenged.
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Offline kcrady

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Re: LOL moment on the United Church site
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2013, 05:36:55 PM »
Quote from: Saul_now_Paul
Hi Azdgari,

I am wearing a black shirt.
Do you believe me?
Does believing me burn more calories than not believing me?

If I am wearing a black shirt and you believe I am wearing a black shirt, does that somehow mean that you did some extra work that helped to make my shirt black?

No...but if you promised to give a million dollars to everyone who said they believed that you are wearing a black shirt, I say so, and you give me a million dollars (while denying millions to everyone who thinks your shirt is gray, or maybe that you're not wearing a shirt, or who have never heard of you or your shirt) then yes, I have performed a "work" that has "earned" me the million dollars based on the standards you set up ("Say you believe I'm wearing a black shirt, and I'll give you a million dollars!").  "Work" in the sense of Christian salvation doctrines is not about burning calories or physics.  It doesn't take any more calories to wear clothes made of a single fiber than of blended fibers, but if you're a Torah-observant Christian of the sort that Paul was debating, you would call the former a "work" that demonstrates that you have real faith and/or is a necessary act to merit salvation.  "Believe these six [or ten, or thirty-five, or however many] things and you go to heaven" is still a "work" in that sense.  Do X, get Y.  Quid pro quo.  "I got the right answers on the Celestial Quiz!  Yusss!  Yay me!"  *End-zone dance* 

In order for the "salvation" to be truly "unmerited" and unrelated to anything people do to earn it, it would either have to be arbitrary (Yahweh picks out some people to be saved and others to be damned before they're born, then insures that they're converted/not converted, respectively, without their having any say or influence in the matter) or universal (everybody goes to Heaven, even the atheists and pagans, and won't they be surprised!).  Problem is, both kinda blow up the whole Christian salvation drama and "spiritual warfare" epic.  The first turns it into a puppet show, the second sweeps away any perceived need to be involved with it at all because everyone gets to the finish line, whether they're in the race or not.

So, you're left with some version of "I believe the right things!  That means I'm on Team Jesus, and I'm going to be one of the winners!"  You can't say anything along those lines without the connotation that you've done the right thing, therefore you deserve to win.  Another way to look at it: Imagine that you're standing before Jesus on Judgment Day.  He's sent all the 'goats' on his left to Hell, then he turns to all the Christian believers on his right.  "Actually, I've decided to pitch all of you guys into Hell too," he says, then reaches for the lever to the trap door under the white-robed crowd.  If there's some part of you that thinks, "Hey, that's unfair!" or "Jesus would never do that, it would be unjust!" then, congratulations: you think you've earned salvation somehow, and expect Jesus to honor that.  If not, then you've got no basis to go around feeling confident that you're "saved" even if you do believe all the "right" things.

OT: I didn't really want to go to the trouble of joining that forum to debate on that thread, so Azdgari, if you like any of the arguments above, feel free to use 'em. :)
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: LOL moment on the United Church site
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2013, 05:41:15 PM »
Thanks, kcrady, but like I said SnP is basically a troll.  Most of the other posters on there, even the Christian ones, don't take him seriously.  And they look upon the likes of airclean and unsafe with embarrassment.  For a Christian-dominated site, it's not all that bad.  I use it to remind me of the diversity, as sort of a counter-weight to my time here.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: LOL moment on the United Church site
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2013, 08:36:44 AM »
In order for the "salvation" to be truly "unmerited" and unrelated to anything people do to earn it, it would either have to be arbitrary (Yahweh picks out some people to be saved and others to be damned before they're born, then insures that they're converted/not converted, respectively, without their having any say or influence in the matter) or universal (everybody goes to Heaven, even the atheists and pagans, and won't they be surprised!).  Problem is, both kinda blow up the whole Christian salvation drama and "spiritual warfare" epic.  The first turns it into a puppet show, the second sweeps away any perceived need to be involved with it at all because everyone gets to the finish line, whether they're in the race or not.

The only way I suppose you could have a non-arbitary, but not "earned" salvation, would be for the requirements of that salvation to be kept secret.  Then people would not have a clue how they were supposed to act, so couldn't "work towards" a reward.  They'd all do what they think is right, and find out at the end if they got it right.

Sure - that's still pretty arbitrary, and likely to be unfair (depending on what the specifics are..... "what, I did everything right except paint my door green, and for that I go to hell?!?!?"), but if Yahweh REALLY wanted to test our souls and morals, that'd be the way to do it.

In fact, there's an argument that if there really IS a god and an afterlife, the only truly just god would be the one who keeps himself and all his requirements secret so as not to influence how we act.....so we'll never even hear of the one true god until we are dead.
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