Author Topic: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"  (Read 1090 times)

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Online Graybeard

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"If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« on: March 11, 2013, 07:39:35 PM »
In 1899, Robert Green IngersollWiki wrote "The Devil"[1], whose first chapter was entitled, "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?". This chapter consists of finding out who or what "The devil" is.

The second chapter is "II -- The Atlas[2] of Christianity is the Devil."

Quote
The religion known as "Christianity" was invented by God himself to repair in part the wreck and ruin that had resulted from the Devil's work.

Take the Devil from the scheme of salvation -- from the atonement -- from the dogma of eternal pain -- and the foundation is gone.

The Devil is the keystone of the arch.

He inflicted the wounds that Christ came to heal. He corrupted the human race.

The question now is: Does the Old Testament teach the existence of the Devil?

If the Old Testament teaches anything, it does teach the existence of the Devil, of Satan, of the Serpent, of the enemy of God and man, the deceiver of men and women.

Those who believe the Scriptures are compelled to say that this Devil was created by God, and that God knew when he created him just what he would do -- the exact measure of his success; knew that he would be a successful rival; knew that he would deceive and corrupt the children of men; knew that, by reason of this Devil, countless millions of human beings would suffer eternal torment in the prison of pain. And this God also knew when he created the Devil, that he, God, would be compelled to leave his throne, to be born a babe in Palestine, and to suffer a cruel death. All this he knew when he created the Devil. Why did he create him?

Superman -> Lex Luther; Batman -> The Joker, etc; Sherlock Holmes -> Moriarty; Any mythical god/hero -> any adversary.

Kill the adversary and there is no need for a hero.
 1. http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/devil.html
 2. In the sense of the Greek god "Atlas" who carries the World on his shoulders and starts to investigate the role of the Devil and devils.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2013, 07:58:34 PM »
An ommni-max Deity would have to know the outcome of any and all creations he has created. The Question is why would he need to create it in the first place?

 Is it a game like in the book of Job,shits and giggles,or so he has a reason to send those who ignore or oppose him to hell?
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Offline Nick

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 08:32:20 PM »
If we can die and go to hell why can't the devil die and still be in hell?
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Offline Tonus

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 08:40:44 PM »
In the OT, Satan is man's adversary, not god's.  He has a relationship with god that is very different from the role he plays in the NT, where he becomes little more than a cartoon arch-villain for Jesus.  So in effect, the devil (of the OT) did die, and god did indeed make another.  The Satan of the OT would've mopped the floor with Devil 2.0.

Online Graybeard

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 09:34:45 AM »
I like your argument and would say that, as Jesus is not obviously related to the god of the OT by way of character, geographical scope, miracles, power or attitude, Jesus required either (i) "another Devil" or (ii) Satan to have a change of strategy, so as to be His own Lex Luther.

In the OT, "Satan" is not a name, it is a position like "enforcement manager". References are[1] written in the Hebrew as "the satan" = the adversary. The adversary is one of the sons of the Elohim, but spends his time (as far as can be seen) on earth plus occasional meetings with Yahweh. As someone with access to Heaven without dying, he could have any status but to avoid confusion with "other minor gods" (Yahweh says, "Don't mention other gods, they're all crap) he is probably an angel.

In the NT, Satan becomes the name of a being. NT Satan is then inexplicable if Christ is part of the Trinity. As Ingersoll points out, the Temptation in the Wilderness becomes an episode where God sends a spirit to himself to tell himself to go into the Desert where He will meet His own angel who will try to tempt Himself incarnate.

The logic becomes untenable.

Another reason why, to continue living with some degree of credibility, Christianity has to dispense with the OT - a difficult position as the Church has spent a lot of time cobbling together, forging and lying about prophecies of the arrival of God on earth, that will all have to be thrown in the dumpster.

The question then might be, "If the Devil Should Die Can God Credibly Make Another?"
 1. in all except one instance, which can be explained
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 09:42:57 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 03:07:30 PM »
Also, Satan became merged with the pagan god Pan in the Middle Ages, which is where he got the horns, tail and cloven feet. Not very biblical or serpent-like, but lots of ancient Greek pandemonium, and what a panic! Get it?

BTW, I would be dissing the spirit of my late comic-obsessed nerd brother if I didn't correct Lex Luthor.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nick

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2013, 03:19:38 PM »
Also, Satan became merged with the pagan god Pan in the Middle Ages, which is where he got the horns, tail and cloven feet. Not very biblical or serpent-like, but lots of ancient Greek pandemonium, and what a panic! Get it?

BTW, I would be dissing the spirit of my late comic-obsessed nerd brother if I didn't correct Lex Luthor.
Is there any part of this Jewish/Christian God story that has not been taken from other religions?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2013, 04:31:50 PM »
Well lessee, Hinduism is way older than Judaism and Christianity. And the Baghavad Gita is so long and complicated, you can find most every religion's story in there somewhere.

Like, Baby Krishna was saved when his parents put him into a boat and sent him up the river to be raised by rich people. Moses much?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Graybeard

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2013, 04:41:05 PM »
That would be a good thread - Plagiarism in the Bible - Deja Vu History.

Are you going to start it?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline shnozzola

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2013, 04:47:19 PM »
Also, Satan became merged with the pagan god Pan in the Middle Ages, which is where he got the horns, tail and cloven feet. Not very biblical or serpent-like, but lots of ancient Greek pandemonium, and what a panic! Get it?

BTW, I would be dissing the spirit of my late comic-obsessed nerd brother if I didn't correct Lex Luthor.

Not to go off topic, but, in honor of your brother.

http://marvel.com/comics/list/623/get_started_with_free_issues
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2013, 05:02:20 PM »
Wow! Looking at those issues takes me way back. Both my brothers were comics nerds, and I had to beg to read them. Why I just didn't buy my own, I can't remember. I guess girls didn't collect comics in the 1960's. Except Archie.

Were the regular superhero comics always that sexy? I remember the old "underground" ones had big boob latina women spilling out of their clothes, but Black Widow looks like soft porn.... :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Tonus

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2013, 06:48:04 PM »
The question then might be, "If the Devil Should Die Can God Credibly Make Another?"
It's a tough question, especially if we treat the Devil of the OT the way Christianity does-- as a fallen angel who became an arch-enemy of god.

As the teaching goes, once Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, they were sinners.  Imperfect.  And they would pass this imperfect state on to their offspring.  Humanity had fallen.  Being imperfect meant that they were, well... genetically engineered to sin, I guess you could say.  No serpent or Devil required, at this point.  Nonetheless, not only does god let Satan live, he gives him a part in the re-establishment of god's kingdom and the redemption of mankind.  The serpent would "wound" the Son of Man on the heel at some future time.  God had now committed himself; Satan had to play this part, or god would be a false prophet.

Later, when more angels fell from grace and introduced hybrid man-monsters to the world, god decided that this was enough!  He had to take action, and so he did... by condemning humanity to a near-complete genocide.  What this accomplished is difficult to determine-- man's sinful nature had not been changed, and it's no surprise that shortly after Noah and his family stepped from the ark, they were being sinful little bastards all over again.  God could've killed those fallen angels, but didn't.  And there seems no reason for him not to have.  Not only did they not figure in his future plans for redeeming mankind, but they would now spend the coming centuries mucking around and leading people away from god.  By all accounts the people who were misled by those demons --with their get-out-of-Gehenna-free cards-- would suffer for doing so.  Sorry, suckers, guess you should learn to distinguish between magic and miracles.

Satan takes advantage of this massive loophole.  He talks god into allowing Job to suffer unspeakable wickedness, then smirks as god scolds Job for being understandably annoyed.  God also scolds the false friends that Satan had sent to torment Job, leaving their fate in Job's hands[1].  I suppose that god trashed-talked the Devil any time he saw him after that, but remember... he still needed Satan around.  Otherwise, who could he turn to when he needed someone to tempt Jesus and then arrange for Christ's painful torture and murder?

Anyway... once Adam and Eve sinned and degraded their DNA, the Devil was superfluous... except that god included him in his future plans.  Had Satan died at any time in the interim, god pretty much had to make another, if only to keep up appearances.  We can't have Satan making god look bad, can we? *raucous laughter from the crowd*
 1. Lucky for them, Job turned out to be far more merciful than god.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 06:51:03 PM by Tonus »

Offline Nick

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Re: "If the Devil Should Die Would God Make Another?"
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2013, 06:59:05 PM »
That would be a good thread - Plagiarism in the Bible - Deja Vu History.

Are you going to start it?
Go for it. :)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!