Politics in Israel

[12 Monkeys]

If America did not have need for middle eastern oil would there be an Israel? Would religious prophecy(end of the world) be enough to establish a Jewish state.? Christians need Jews to bring about Biblical prophecy,but they also love the oil.

[Tonus]

I think oil is the primary reason that Israel exists as it does today.  The world had undergone radical change thanks to WW2, and the leadership of the UK and USA weren't about to leave anything to chance if they could help it.  Having any kind of a toehold in the region was probably very important to them.

With the US sitting on its own healthy reserves of oil, its neighbors finding the means to extract more and the push towards renewable energy, I wonder if we're not entering another period of radical change.  One where the US finds it feasible to have fewer troops abroad and rely on its economic power to provide stability.

[screwtape]

If America did not have need for middle eastern oil would there be an Israel?

How does israel figure into oil politics?  They do not produce oil.  Well, olive oil, but not crude. And when it was still a colony of Great Britain, the Brits were more apt to appease the Arab sensibilities because they were congniscent of arab oil.  This caused the jewish population of then Palestine to form a terrorist insurrection against the British. 

Later, our continued support of israel had more to do with the cold war.  In the 1950s several ME nations had become socialist and israel was threatening to do the same.  We offered them wads of cash to help us fight the communists.  They took the money and sort of helped, but not really.  They always have been and still are pretty socialist.[1]

So how do you see oil affecting the relationship?

1.

http://bonosrama.newsvine.com/_news/2010/08/31/5009181-if-socialism-is-evil-does-that-make-israel-bad this essay is slightly unhinged, but I like the title: Israel, socialist sparta http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j042902.html I see nothing wrong with their socialist policies and would prefer to see a lot of it implemented here.

[12 Monkeys]

If America did not have need for middle eastern oil would there be an Israel?

How does israel figure into oil politics?  They do not produce oil.  Well, olive oil, but not crude. And when it was still a colony of Great Britain, the Brits were more apt to appease the Arab sensibilities because they were congniscent of arab oil.  This caused the jewish population of then Palestine to form a terrorist insurrection against the British. 

Later, our continued support of israel had more to do with the cold war.  In the 1950s several ME nations had become socialist and israel was threatening to do the same.  We offered them wads of cash to help us fight the communists.  They took the money and sort of helped, but not really.  They always have been and still are pretty socialist.[1]

So how do you see oil affecting the relationship?

1.

http://bonosrama.newsvine.com/_news/2010/08/31/5009181-if-socialism-is-evil-does-that-make-israel-bad this essay is slightly unhinged, but I like the title: Israel, socialist sparta http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j042902.html I see nothing wrong with their socialist policies and would prefer to see a lot of it implemented here.

I was saying that the USA has a presence{in the middle east) there because of the establishment of Israel,and Israel is afloat in part to the USA funding it in the billions of dollars.
 The question was is Israel funded by America BECAUSE of the oil interests or biblical prophecy? If the cold war is over and its not for presence in the oil region,is it to fulfill Biblical Prophecy that they continue to fund Israel?

[nogodsforme]

Good questions. Especially since we sell weapons and give assistance to Israel's enemies like Saudi Arabia as well as to Israel.

[screwtape]

I was saying that the USA has a presence{in the middle east) there because of the establishment of Israel,

Oh.  I thought that was a rhetorical question you were using to make a point.  Sorry.

I think probably not.  We have a presence in the ME because there is oil there and we have an economy that is completely dependent on petroleum. So we would find a way to have a presence whether israel was there or palestine or western iraq.  Really, without israel, our foreign relations there would be much simpler.

and Israel is afloat in part to the USA funding it in the billions of dollars.

it is tough to argue they would have made it without us.  Though, they may have sought other sponsors, like the USSR. 

The question was is Israel funded by America BECAUSE of the oil interests or biblical prophecy?

I do not think it is an either or question.  I think both of those play a role but I think other things factor in too.  For example, historically, we have always supported them.  Also, they have the best lobbying machine money can buy.  And they have been very successful in feeding a big fat lie as their national narrative to the US.Other interests are involved as well.  The $3Billion in aid we give them is mainly for weapons, with the caveat that they buy from US manufacturers.  So, really, it is welfare for the war industry.  And of course, they also have a very effective lobby and have sold their big fat lie to the US citizens.

[Bereft_of_Faith]

You make a good point and I agree with you.  Fear does play into the dynamic of israeli politics.  But if you think they don't think of themselves as superior to the the palestinians, akin to the way the nazis thought of jews, then I think you are being naive.

No.  You're conflating nationalistic pride with racial.  Every nation that I can recall has engaged in nationalist pride, especially in times of conflict.  The Nazis defined Jews and others as being fundamentally, congenitally and racially sub human and the cause of not just Germany's ills, but of the world, and not just in modern times, but throughout history.  They set about to annihilate the Jewish race forever.

So you and others here hate Israel.  Fine, have at it.  Not my concern.

[Bereft_of_Faith]

First, if either of you are of the opinion that the jewish people have no right to Israel, and that they should either be driven into the sea by force, or subsumed into a Palestinian state, then I will only say that I disagree, and tell you that I'm not interested in yet another debate about the right of Israel to exist.  I find it exhausting.

Hm.
Maybe you'd be interested in one about how the jewish people, back then, had no right to Israel where it was instituted - but now they do by virtue of a lack of alternative?

Nope.  Sounds like spitting at a wasp nest.  Pass

[shnozzola]

When I started this thread about Naftali Bennett, I was interested in what he brings to the table long term, in that it sounds like his views would piss of Palestinians and keep the anger process on high, with no agreements in sight.  I should have figured it would eventually descend back into the typical debate - ie -" so you and others here hate Israel"  -  too bad, not my intention.   Maybe if 2 wrongs do not make a right, adding more and more wrongs will eventually make a right?

[Nick]

Obama is on his way to Israel today.  By Sunday he will have that problem solved.

[12 Monkeys]

You make a good point and I agree with you.  Fear does play into the dynamic of israeli politics.  But if you think they don't think of themselves as superior to the the palestinians, akin to the way the nazis thought of jews, then I think you are being naive.

No.  You're conflating nationalistic pride with racial.  Every nation that I can recall has engaged in nationalist pride, especially in times of conflict.  The Nazis defined Jews and others as being fundamentally, congenitally and racially sub human and the cause of not just Germany's ills, but of the world, and not just in modern times, but throughout history.  They set about to annihilate the Jewish race forever.

So you and others here hate Israel.  Fine, have at it.  Not my concern.

Who here say they hate Israel,I don't like the standard that supporting countries of Israel have based the existence of Israel on. A religious base that God had given them the land and Israel and supporting nations have returned the land to them on this basis is absurd. I am an Aboriginal,like other Aboriginal peoples around the world,our land has been stolen and NOT returned. Should we in your opinion have our land returned to us,hardly practical for the colonizers who have since used the land as they see fit. Our population is now down to a low enough number where the Governments do not see fit a return of the stolen lands. Then there is the fact we don't have a powerful lobby that Israel does.

 The U.S. and Canadian Governments also set out to annihilate it's Indigenous peoples using religious bias and the pride of ancestry. They like the Germans failed to complete the job.

 Don't tell me I hate the Jew's and Israel,I just want the same deal they got,my homeland returned,my culture and language and traditions reestablished. 

[shnozzola]

The U.S. and Canadian Governments also set out to annihilate it's Indigenous peoples using religious bias and the pride of ancestry. They like the Germans failed to complete the job.

I can get myself all worked up about how much of that has been done worldwide.  I am too weak.  I should be willing to go to prison fighting against what has been done and continues to be done to indigenous people worldwide.  Aborigines in Australia, South Africans by the Boers, so much European colonization, how the Salvadorian military ran over the men, women, and children in the villages with US assistance, how the USSR colonized and ruled with an iron fist, and what has been done to native Americans and Canadians, how human beings in Cuba have been treated, or how the fucking nazis treated the Jews, or the Jews treat the Palestinians, and how the US is treating the middle east.  It is a FUCKING horrible thing, always for politics or some sort of resource, with never the thought of the people quietly living their lives at the wrong place.  Damn it. 

[12 Monkeys]

The U.S. and Canadian Governments also set out to annihilate it's Indigenous peoples using religious bias and the pride of ancestry. They like the Germans failed to complete the job.

I can get myself all worked up about how much of that has been done worldwide.  I am too weak.  I should be willing to go to prison fighting against what has been done and continues to be done to indigenous people worldwide.  Aborigines in Australia, South Africans by the Boers, so much European colonization, how the Salvadorian military ran over the men, women, and children in the villages with US assistance, how the USSR colonized and ruled with an iron fist, and what has been done to native Americans and Canadians, how human beings in Cuba have been treated, or how the fucking nazis treated the Jews, or the Jews treat the Palestinians, and how the US is treating the middle east.  It is a FUCKING horrible thing, always for politics or some sort of resource, with never the thought of the people quietly living their lives at the wrong place.  Damn it.

Understood,but it should not be paramount that Israel should exist because God said so,and promised the land to them for eternity. Could all those wronged use the same argument to reestablish their original homelands? Could I march into your neighborhood and bulldoze down your houses and expect a Government,any Government to back me up?

[screwtape]

No.  You're conflating nationalistic pride with racial.

I don't think I am.  I think I am looking at what israel is doing - discriminating against non-jews, making sure non-jews can never have political power - and calling that a form of racism. 

The Nazis defined Jews and others as being fundamentally, congenitally and racially sub human and the cause of not just Germany's ills, but of the world, and not just in modern times, but throughout history.  They set about to annihilate the Jewish race forever.

I'm not sure how that statement supports your point about nationalism.  But it does sound to me very much like how many israeli jews see arabs - they want them annihilated from israel forever.  If that is incorrect, please show me.

So you and others here hate Israel.  Fine, have at it.  Not my concern.

Yes, that must be it. I must hate israel because I think they are an apartheid state that engages in war crimes.

Silly me.  I thought there was a civil conversation to be had.

edit: was --> want

[screwtape]

When I started this thread about Naftali Bennett, I was interested in what he brings to the table long term, in that it sounds like his views would piss of Palestinians and keep the anger process on high, with no agreements in sight.  I should have figured it would eventually descend back into the typical debate - ie -" so you and others here hate Israel"  -  too bad, not my intention.   Maybe if 2 wrongs do not make a right, adding more and more wrongs will eventually make a right?

Sorry shnozz.  Your OP kind of left it wide open.  If you'd let me know sooner, I would have not gone this far down that path.

[Nick]

People throw that arond a lot. Chuck Hagle found that out when he was accused of "hating Israel" which means you don't give them 100% of what they want without question.  Not many ever get acused of "hating Spain, Guam, Italy, India, etc.  I guess you have to be the chosen people and have a place in the "end times" to get the love/hate thing.

[jaimehlers]

You make a good point and I agree with you.  Fear does play into the dynamic of israeli politics.  But if you think they don't think of themselves as superior to the the palestinians, akin to the way the nazis thought of jews, then I think you are being naive.

So, where's the evidence to support this conjecture of yours?  I'm quite serious here.  If you're going to play the "they're like Nazis" card, then you'd better be able to support it with some real evidence.  Same thing with calling them terrorists and saying that they should be killed by unmanned drones.

When you start throwing things like that around, it isn't conducive to the civil conversation that you presumably want to have.  When you turn around and use another person's reactions to these loaded arguments to make accusations against them, it makes you look disingenuous, if not hypocritical.

The key point that you're forgetting here is, who actually founded modern Israel?  It wasn't the Israelis, many of whom were war refugees, and not including those who were outright slaughtered in Nazi concentration camps.  It was the British, who basically said, "this land will be Israel, and this land will be Palestine".  Let's not forget that most of the Palestinians chose to leave the land that Britain had declared was Israel, so they could come back and drive them out by force.  That's what started all this.

It doesn't justify what the Israelis have done since.  But to point your fingers at the Israelis and claim that they're some international villains while you pretty much ignore the other side of the story is ignorant, to say the least.  Especially not when you start throwing around claims such as "they're like Nazis" or "they're terrorists", both of which incite emotional reactions in people who read them.

[Noman Peopled]

Nope.  Sounds like spitting at a wasp nest.  Pass

Well ... not really, but okay then.

[Bereft_of_Faith]

Who here say they hate Israel,I don't like the standard that supporting countries of Israel have based the existence of Israel on.

What?

Don't tell me I hate the Jew's and Israel,I just want the same deal they got,my homeland returned,my culture and language and traditions reestablished.

Gee... I never said anyone hated the 'jews' (because nobody hates the jews).  Where'd you come up with that?  I can't imagine. 

As for the 'same deal', it sounds like the answer is clear.  Start doing whatever it is you accuse the 'jews' of having done.  That seemed to have worked.  Or if you prefer, do what the Palestinians are doing.  Both involve guns and putting your life on the line, because folks aren't just going to 'give' anything back to anyone based on ancestral claims.  History has proven that.  But go ahead and ignore the lessons of history.  I'm sure it will work out fine.  Bon chance.

[12 Monkeys]

Gee if we could have a 6 day war to get everything back I am sure we would.....And you made a blanket statement about everybody hating Israel.

 You see we would lose a war because our numbers are not there,the white anglo's made sure to kill 90% of our population before the remainder were sent to reserves and residential schools.

[12 Monkeys]

You make a good point and I agree with you.  Fear does play into the dynamic of israeli politics.  But if you think they don't think of themselves as superior to the the palestinians, akin to the way the nazis thought of jews, then I think you are being naive.

So, where's the evidence to support this conjecture of yours?  I'm quite serious here.  If you're going to play the "they're like Nazis" card, then you'd better be able to support it with some real evidence.  Same thing with calling them terrorists and saying that they should be killed by unmanned drones.

When you start throwing things like that around, it isn't conducive to the civil conversation that you presumably want to have.  When you turn around and use another person's reactions to these loaded arguments to make accusations against them, it makes you look disingenuous, if not hypocritical.

The key point that you're forgetting here is, who actually founded modern Israel?  It wasn't the Israelis, many of whom were war refugees, and not including those who were outright slaughtered in Nazi concentration camps.  It was the British, who basically said, "this land will be Israel, and this land will be Palestine".  Let's not forget that most of the Palestinians chose to leave the land that Britain had declared was Israel, so they could come back and drive them out by force.  That's what started all this.

It doesn't justify what the Israelis have done since.  But to point your fingers at the Israelis and claim that they're some international villains while you pretty much ignore the other side of the story is ignorant, to say the least.  Especially not when you start throwing around claims such as "they're like Nazis" or "they're terrorists", both of which incite emotional reactions in people who read them.

Tell us how their vision differs from the Nazi's,It may not have started out that way,but this is the direction it is headed in

[Bereft_of_Faith]

Gee if we could have a 6 day war to get everything back I am sure we would.....And you made a blanket statement about everybody hating Israel.

So, backing away from the 'jews' part of your reply then? OK. 

The statement 'you and others here' is not a blanket statement.  It referred to Screwtape and you.  I was just trying to be polite.  You obviously don't hate Israel.  I can see the balanced understanding in each of your posts.

[Bereft_of_Faith]

The Nazis defined Jews and others as being fundamentally, congenitally and racially sub human and the cause of not just Germany's ills, but of the world, and not just in modern times, but throughout history.  They set about to annihilate the Jewish race forever.

I'm not sure how that statement supports your point about nationalism.  But it does sound to me very much like how many israeli jews see arabs - they want them annihilated from israel forever.  If that is incorrect, please show me.

You want ME to show you how the israeli jews don't "want them annihilated from israel forever". You are making the assertion, yet you want me to disprove it?

So you and others here hate Israel.  Fine, have at it.  Not my concern.

Yes, that must be it. I must hate israel because I think they are an apartheid state that engages in war crimes.

Silly me.  I thought there was a civil conversation to be had.

edit: was --> want

You down voted me for not being nice.  I don't think these were very respectful replies either:

"oh, it's superiority all right.  They are the Chosen People."
"Oh, baloney.  That is a myth."
"then I think you are being naive."

If you conduct a discussion in the manner above, being dismissive and arrogant, then you might get a bit of that in return.  I wouldn't down vote you for it, but we each have our own methods.

As for you hating Israel:  "I must hate israel because I think they are an apartheid state that engages in war crimes" So you don't hate Israel, or is it you don't think they're engaged in war crimes and apartheid, and that I have misapprehended you, because those reasons sound like awfully good reasons for hating a country.

But you've also asserted that "I would not object to our drones blowing up illegal settlements." I had assumed you were just trying to be bombastic, but you doubled down and replied...

"They are terrorists engaged in a war against civilians.  Isn't that what drones are for?"

I  had provided a humane method of getting the settlers off of the land on which they do not belong.  You dismissed it and provided the above. 

Here is the way to do it.

from wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_unilateral_disengagement_plan

Israel's unilateral disengagement plan (Hebrew: ?????? ????????? Tokhnit HaHitnatkut or ?????? ???????? Tokhnit HaHinatkut in the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law), also known as the "Disengagement plan", "Gaza expulsion plan", and "Hitnatkut", was a proposal by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government on June 6, 2004 and enacted in August 2005, to resettle all Israelis from the Gaza Strip and from four settlements in the northern West Bank.
Israeli-Palestinian coordination effort, 2005

Those Israeli citizens who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the August 15, 2005 deadline, were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days.[1] The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by September 12, 2005.[2] The eviction and dismantlement of the four settlements in the northern West Bank was completed ten days later.

Yet you said you wanted to indiscriminately kill the settlers.  You take issue with the term 'hate', yet you would kill people despite that there is another solution.  Can you fault me for characterizing your statements as 'hatred'? 

Wanting to kill people when we have other options seems like a damned good definition of 'hate'. 

[jaimehlers]

Tell us how their vision differs from the Nazi's,It may not have started out that way,but this is the direction it is headed in

You made the claim (well, screwtape did, but you're backing him to the hilt), so you get to support it.  You don't get to make a claim and then tell me I have to disprove it when you haven't shown sufficient evidence (if any evidence) that your claim has anything behind it.

If you can't support a claim like this with evidence, you have no business making, or backing, such a claim to begin with.  Isn't that a large part of what this site is about?  Making sure that people are able to support the claims they make, rather than just making claims and expecting people to just accept them?

[shnozzola]

Sorry shnozz.  Your OP kind of left it wide open.  If you'd let me know sooner, I would have not gone this far down that path.

                  Pleases don't stop the debate, Screw.  I was just noting how these Palestine-Israel debates always go.  Heck, I started to put together a collage of videos showing Israeli soldiers bulldozing gardens and cisterns, saying the locals were stealing Jewish water, or a picture of a Jewish settler throwing wine on an old Palestinian woman, or a young Palestinian girl being doctored after being shot in the face with a rubber bullet.

                  Then I figured why? - I could find pictures of blown up Israeli buses or coffee houses, or Palestinian men launching random bombs. Pointless.  Plenty of blame to ensure this never, ever stops.  People are so sure that they know what is right and what is true, never planning how to stop it, just planning revenge.
 

[jaimehlers]

Then I figured why? - I could find pictures of blown up Israeli buses or coffee houses, or Palestinian men launching random bombs. Pointless.  Plenty of blame to ensure this never, ever stops.  People are so sure that they know what is right and what is true, never planning how to stop it, just planning revenge.

That's much of the reason that I'm criticizing the Nazi and terrorist talk.  What does that accomplish except to point out specific reasons to treat one side badly and the other side as the victims.

[screwtape]

So, where's the evidence to support this conjecture of yours? I'm quite serious here.  If you're going to play the "they're like Nazis" card, then you'd better be able to support it with some real evidence.  Same thing with calling them terrorists and saying that they should be killed by unmanned drones.

Jaime, I like you.  But I don't much like the tone you've taken in this post.  It's not particularly civil and I find it rather condescending.

The evidence for my "conjecture", as you call it, is in the links in the previous posts.  I don't know how you failed to read them.  Naftali Bennett is espousing ethnic cleansing.  He does not use those words, but the end point is the same.  He wants an arab-free israel just as the nazis wanted a jew-free Germany.  The link was in the OP and I redundantly linked it later on.

As for calling Israelis terrorists, I did not say all Israelis are terrorists.  I said the settlers were.  I provided links in that very post that show the kind of things jewish settlers do that I consider terrorism.  According to international law, they are war criminals.  An occupying country may not colonize the occupied land, which is exactly what they are doing.

I'm not saying the Palestinians are blameless.  I'm saying, right now Israel has all the power and they are doing nothing for peace or justice.  They have tanks, helicopters, and F-16s.  Palestinians cannot even get cement, food or employment.  Right now the Israelis are the aggressors, oppressors and the major roadblock to solving the problem.

Hey, lookey there, middle east expert, Juan Cole, even has a post about it today:
http://www.juancole.com/2013/03/remembering-rachel-corrie.html

Let me help you out a little more.  Here are all of Cole's posts on israel/palestine:
http://www.juancole.com/israel-palestine
this has everything you could want to know.

In the future, make sure you accurately portray my position and follow my links before breaking out your righteous indignation.  I don't like being lectured, particularly when the person doing it is going off half-cocked.
 

[jaimehlers]

Jaime, I like you.  But I don't much like the tone you've taken in this post.  It's not particularly civil and I find it rather condescending.

With all due respect, screwtape, you haven't exactly come across as particularly civil in this thread.  Though, that doesn't really justify me doing it back to you, and I'm sorry for that.

The evidence for my "conjecture", as you call it, is in the links in the previous posts.  I don't know how you failed to read them.  Naftali Bennett is espousing ethnic cleansing.  He does not use those words, but the end point is the same.  He wants an arab-free israel just as the nazis wanted a jew-free Germany.  The link was in the OP and I redundantly linked it later on.

As for calling Israelis terrorists, I did not say all Israelis are terrorists.  I said the settlers were.  I provided links in that very post that show the kind of things jewish settlers do that I consider terrorism.  According to international law, they are war criminals.  An occupying country may not colonize the occupied land, which is exactly what they are doing.

If not all Israelis are terrorists, then it's probable that not all Israelis are Nazi-like either.  I don't doubt that there's some - there's some Americans who are Nazi-like and are pretty close to being terrorists themselves.  But the way you came across was suggesting that Israelis were Nazi-like and terrorists, without making the distinction between someone like Naftali Bennett and, say, Ariel Sharon.  If what you meant was that there are a number of Israelis who are proposing Nazi-esque solutions to the problems in Israel and the occupied territories, or who act like terrorists, then I retract my objection to your statement.  It sounded like you were being much more general, which is part of why I reacted as I did.

I'm not saying the Palestinians are blameless.  I'm saying, right now Israel has all the power and they are doing nothing for peace or justice.  They have tanks, helicopters, and F-16s.  Palestinians cannot even get cement, food or employment.  Right now the Israelis are the aggressors, oppressors and the major roadblock to solving the problem.

It sounds like what the Palestinians need is their own Ghandi.  Not that Ghandi was anywhere near perfect, but a large part of the reason that India is its own country, rather than still dominated by Britain, is because of Ghandi's actions.

Both sides have some pretty vicious grievances and reasons to hate the other side by now, and both sides are guilty of doing some pretty bad things to the other.  So long as they're focused on what the other side has done to them, nothing will get done and it'll just continue.  In a very real sense, it doesn't matter who's done what, who's most responsible, who's more aggressive and/or oppressive, or whatever.

Hey, lookey there, middle east expert, Juan Cole, even has a post about it today:
http://www.juancole.com/2013/03/remembering-rachel-corrie.html

Let me help you out a little more.  Here are all of Cole's posts on israel/palestine:
http://www.juancole.com/israel-palestine
this has everything you could want to know.

I don't know Juan Cole from John Doe.  I don't have a problem with him advocating for the Palestinians (especially the ones who are trying to live their lives despite the Israeli occupation of Gaza), but how much does he talk about groups like Hamas, who are terroristic themselves?  How much does he talk about militant groups who bombard Israeli cities - not illegal settlements, but actual cities within Israel proper?  How much does he talk about suicide bombings perpetrated by Palestinians, which again are committed against Israeli civilians inside Israel proper?  How much does he talk about the Fatah-Hamas civil war after the Hamas coup in the Gaza Strip, or about the fact that the peace settlement between Fatah and Hamas is pretty well stalled despite being agreed to a year ago?

In the future, make sure you accurately portray my position and follow my links before breaking out your righteous indignation.  I don't like being lectured, particularly when the person doing it is going off half-cocked.

Then make sure you're portraying your own position accurately, without hyperbole or sarcasm.  That's usually very difficult to detect on the Internet.

[12 Monkeys]

Can anyone show me the state of Palestine on the map?