Politics in Israel

[12 Monkeys]

Gee if we could have a 6 day war to get everything back I am sure we would.....And you made a blanket statement about everybody hating Israel.

So, backing away from the 'jews' part of your reply then? OK. 

The statement 'you and others here' is not a blanket statement.  It referred to Screwtape and you.  I was just trying to be polite.  You obviously don't hate Israel.  I can see the balanced understanding in each of your posts.

If it just referred to Screwtape and I why is it pluralized referring to more than just TWO. And how is my statement back off anything? I stated if it could be won back in a David Vs Goliath 6 day war to have my homeland returned,why would I not be for that?

[Bereft_of_Faith]

People throw that arond a lot. Chuck Hagle found that out when he was accused of "hating Israel" which means you don't give them 100% of what they want without question.  Not many ever get acused of "hating Spain, Guam, Italy, India, etc.  I guess you have to be the chosen people and have a place in the "end times" to get the love/hate thing.

Here's the difference.  Israel is currently executing policies that are worthy of hate.  They are a theocratic state, and with their settlement policy, they are grabbing land that does not belong to them (It gets ignored, but I've said this before).  There are reports of Israeli acts, such as the use of phosphorous or the bulldozing of homes.  Spain, Guam, Italy or India are not being shown doing this.  There's reasons for people to hate Israel.  Then it comes down to the little interactions... throwing liquid on an old lady, olive trees etc, that understandably get folks very upset.

People often say one thing and mean another.  If I meant 'hate jews', I would have said that.  But hating a nation, a country, or an administration?  Frankly I don't see anything wrong with that.  I may think it's unwise, but I understand it as a reaction.

I don't want to be a part of a debate when hatred becomes clearly apparent, because although I can see how hatred of a country and its policies may be justified, I think hatred itself tends to blind the hater, making for some very nasty discussions that pull everyone in.

[Bereft_of_Faith]

Hm.
Maybe you'd be interested in one about how the jewish people, back then, had no right to Israel where it was instituted - but now they do by virtue of a lack of alternative?

I should elaborate on my rather curt dismissal.  That actually does sound like an important topic for discussion.

The trouble is, then whenever someone tries to speak rationally about either Israel, Palestine or the topic of terrorism, it seems to press a lot of buttons.  I believe that the reason for this is that there is no 'good' solution.  All the solutions fall somewhere between problematic and horrific.  I doubt that anyone, much less anyone here, much less I, have the capacity, patience, and understanding to participate in such a debate without a serious loss of cool.  When we lose our cool, the debate degrades.

[Noman Peopled]

The trouble is, then whenever someone tries to speak rationally about either Israel, Palestine or the topic of terrorism, it seems to press a lot of buttons.  I believe that the reason for this is that there is no 'good' solution.  All the solutions fall somewhere between problematic and horrific.  I doubt that anyone, much less anyone here, much less I, have the capacity, patience, and understanding to participate in such a debate without a serious loss of cool.  When we lose our cool, the debate degrades.

Fair enough. I'm certainly no expert myself, which is why most of my opinions towards the conflict are tentative. For instance, I have found little in this thread that I would disagree with entirely.
In fact, by asking my original question, I have almost exhausted my firm opinions on the topic ...

[screwtape]

With all due respect, screwtape, you haven't exactly come across as particularly civil in this thread.  Though, that doesn't really justify me doing it back to you, and I'm sorry for that.

I appreciate that.  If I came across as a dick, rather than outraged and passionate, that was not by design and I apologize.  Truly.

If not all Israelis are terrorists, then it's probable that not all Israelis are Nazi-like either.

... of course they aren't.  I never said All.  Sometimes I make generalizations.  Generalizations are "general".  By that I mean, they apply in most instances.  So I could make the generalization that rich white people vote republican.  And by that I would mean if you were to pick a random rich, white guy out of a crowd, it is likely he votes repub, BUT it is certainly possible to find a democrat or independent.  But when I say things like that there is always someone in the crowd who does not understand what a generalization is and objects because he knows some rich white guy who voted for Carter. 

Generally, Israelis acknowledge and like their apartheid policies.[1]  So, generally, yes, they are behaving like nazis.  This is not a blanket "All".  Obviously, some of the links I have provided talk about how there are jewish Israelis protesting their own policies.  And the footnote about Israeli apartheid says most, not all, so obviously not everyone is on board.

I should probably avoid generalizations like I try to avoid analogies.

If what you meant was that there are a number of Israelis who are proposing Nazi-esque solutions to the problems in Israel and the occupied territories, or who act like terrorists, then I retract my objection to your statement.  It sounded like you were being much more general, which is part of why I reacted as I did.

I mean it is the government's policy to support nazi-esque solutions and terrorist tactics on the part of settlers. Mainly this is what I am against.

In a very real sense, it doesn't matter who's done what, who's most responsible, who's more aggressive and/or oppressive, or whatever.

I'm not all that interested in trying to go back historically to assign blame.  But current conditions matter.  That Gaza has been blockaded to the point where they do not get enough food or medicine and they cannot export most of what they make, is a problem.  The Israelis are literally starving them. 

I don't know Juan Cole from John Doe.

He explains who he is in his blog.[2]  Professor at University of Michigan. He specializes in ME history and studies and can read and speak a number of ME languages. 

but how much does he talk about...

Does he really need to talk about all that?  I mean, does that not get enough coverage in the media as it is?  Who is talking about the other side?

1.	http://www.theage.com.au/world/israelis-back-discrimination-against-arabs-poll-20121024-2844m.html
2.	http://www.juancole.com/toward-an-authorized-biography

[screwtape]

Sorry, BoF, I missed this post.  I was not ignoring it.

You want ME to show you how the israeli jews don't "want them annihilated from israel forever". You are making the assertion, yet you want me to disprove it?

I don't think I just made assertions and said "prove it isn't". 

I included links throughout this thread to support my arguments.  I claimed Israel, the state, has discriminitory policies that make non-jewish citizens second class citizens, and a large majority of jewish Israelis approve of it.  I supported that with links.  I claimed Israel, the state, has policies that support the terrorizing of Palestinian people in occupied territories.  I supported that with links.  I claimed Israel, the state and its current policy makers, are not interested in peace and their goal is to push out the Palestinians.  That was supported with a link in the OP.  That is also a valid conclusion based on their policies.

You down voted me for not being nice. 

I voted you down because I thought you accusing me of hating Israel was a cheap shot.  I don't often down vote. 

I don't think these were very respectful replies either:
"oh, it's superiority all right.  They are the Chosen People."
"Oh, baloney.  That is a myth."
"then I think you are being naive."

Oooo, quote mining!  Yay!  Would you like me to play that game too? 

As I told jaime, I don't indend to be a douche.  But sometimes it comes out that way.  I take responsibility for that.  I did not then, nor do I now find any of those responses particularly disrespectful.  But I can appreciate that others have a differing opinion.  However, I think suggesting naivete is a far cry from accusing someone of hating.

As for you hating Israel:

Can I be critical of  a policy without hating a country and everyone in it?  Have you read my posts on drones and guns?  Do you think I hate the US because I think our policies on both are self defeating?  Or is it simply me voicing my objection to policies I find wrong?

Yet you said you wanted to indiscriminately kill the settlers.

Please quote where I said that. If you cannot, I insist you retract it.

Can you fault me for characterizing your statements as 'hatred'? 

I can understand you missing the irony in my statement about drones.  I have posted a lot about drones and I probably assumed my thoughts on the matter were obvious.  If you've not read the drone debate, then you would have missed that.  That was my mistake.  But I think accusing me of hate is unfair and unnecessary.

[12 Monkeys]

 If the settlements are illegal and condemned by nations around the world,why has it not been stopped by force? How many more areas will be bulldozed by Israeli settlers until a two state solution (or any other solution) can be reached?

 
 

[Quesi]

I went searching on youtube for some videos I had seen a few years back which included testimony from Israeli Jews and Palestinians.  I didn't find what I was looking for, but I found two really wonderful videos. 

They are not arty, and the speakers are not dynamic.  But each of these pieces tells a very different story.

The first is Ilse.  She is a holocaust survivor to the extent that her parents got her out of Germany as a teenager.  She lived as a refugee in England, and later in the US.  You can see why she was a Zionist for most of her life.  She had seen her world change.  She had seen the laws that her parents lived under turned against them, as how the government used the "laws" to take away her parents home, just because they were Jews.  She saw it happen, and even though she never says so explicitly, you see that she believes, on a certain level, that it could happen again.  I don't see how anyone could fail to understand her joy when Israel became a nation.  A refuge.  A symbol.  She never lived there, but like so many others, she loved Israel.

And then she started hearing about Israeli abuses of Palestinians.  At first she did not believe it.  She could not believe that Jews, like herself, that refugees and survivors of abuse, and their children and grandchildren could commit atrocities.  But she did her research.  Over many years, it seems - talking with other Jews, talking with witnesses.  And then her worldview changed. 



The second video is quite different.  A Jewish American kid did his summers in Israel, like so many other Jewish American kids.  He traveled and he explored, and he learned about a pretty disturbing reality.  He talks about limited access to roads, inequity in access to water, and even about ancient olive trees being taken from Palestinian land and planted in Jewish territories. 



Screwtape's links to surveys of the Israeli public are pretty terrifying.  But I imagine that there are folks all over the world reading surveys from folks here in the USA, about the upcoming rapture, and admiration for Ronald Reagan, and our complacency for drone strikes, and they think that we are pretty terrifying. 

But those people are not like me, or like anyone I even know.  A lot of Israelis are outraged by the actions of their government.  And a lot of Israelis are ignorant of the reality.  And of course, there are the crazy lunatics.

I'm most interested in the ignorant folks.  Ignorance is curable via education.  They are the ones who have the power to turn the tides.  They could give in to fear, and support Bennett and his ilk.  Or they could transform into  Ilse and this young man.   

[Bereft_of_Faith]

[snipped]
But I think accusing me of hate is unfair and unnecessary.

I can understand that.  I can also see how you and others saw it as an accusation, since 'hate Israel' is so often both inferred and implied as 'hate jews', but that was not my intention.  As you may see in my reply to Nick, I regarded it as more of an observation of justifiable anger.  It really wasn't intended to be antagonistic, and I am sorry it came off that way.

People can be very angry about the way Israel is conducting itself.  My own attitude is anger and disappointment (I expected better of them, for various reasons).  I would say that I 'hate' what Israel is doing and the path that they are on.  Moreover, I despise the right wing there (well... almost anywhere, really).  They are short-sighted bastards, the lot of them.  Like all right wingers, they trample on human rights to ensure that their (vision of) their nation is secure.  Well, that's another discussion.

As for the drone issue, I confess I have not looked at the drone debate, so I was missing context for your comments.

[screwtape]

okay, good.  A little blame for all involved, some mea culpas, and we're all a big love fest again.

[nogodsforme]

^^^^^Yes we really can all just get along, even as we argue about Israel.



From some folks who really know their apartheid...

[shnozzola]

^^I had to comment on this video, Nogods, because put together with your Jonathon Seagull video shows a very different side of you than we sometimes see.    I especially appreciate this video from perhaps the most underrated, below the radar people around.  They live way out in the villages, and walk to the spring for water with children on their backs, harvest beans from their gardens, and hunt eggs from their chickens.  They start a small fire in the floor inside their stone and mud houses, and make supper for their great great grandmother, sitting there scolding and holding their newborn great- great granddaughters.   

They do not follow all of the arguments around the world, and they sing and dance a lot.  I am very privileged to have met them, these people that share every single thing they own.   And people think they are backwards.  They are the oldest people, the most civilized people, on the planet.

[12 Monkeys]

 Shnozz,this is one of the reasons Aboriginals were  killed all over the world. They share everything,don't really "own" anything,and resolve differences in a mostly peaceful manor.

 Guys who must acquire "stuff" did not understand,it scared them enough to kill.

[nogodsforme]

Hey, shnozz, I contain multitudes, dude. I've been in South Africa--scary beautiful place. I loved that seagull album-- I had the actual record.

And I've been around the block a few times. Well, maybe around the block one time nowadays what with my arthritic knees, but the doggies like it.