Poll

Could a person deserve unending torture?

Yes
0 (0%)
No
42 (95.5%)
Possibly - explain below
2 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 44

Author Topic: Do you believe anyone could ever be deserving of a fate of unending torture?  (Read 1768 times)

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Offline Tykster

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It's a weird concept. Fire needs fuel, eternal fire needs infinite fuel. One's body only has a finite amount of fuel...so eventually it would be over, right??? ;)
rhocam ~ I guess there are several trillion cells in a man, and one in an amoeba, so to be generous, lets say that there were a billion. That is one every fifteen years. So in my lifetime I should have seen two evolutionary changes.

Offline J0SH

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It's a weird concept. Fire needs fuel, eternal fire needs infinite fuel. One's body only has a finite amount of fuel...so eventually it would be over, right??? ;)
Well, for an all powerful God I can only assume that he would have the power to regenerate the burned bodies of those in Hell so they would never completely burn up, giving them all new sensitive nerves so their pain will never cease. A constant process of regeneration and burning that will never end. It surprises me that Xtians can call a God that is capable of something like this loving. Insane.

Poll added on my own initiative
Thank you for adding the poll, I am pleased to see that not all of humanity can be as insane as fanatical hell believing Xtians.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 01:43:38 PM by J0SH »
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion."  -Robert M. Pirsig
“Be the change you want to see in the world.” -Mahatma Gandhi

Offline carstensenscott

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the power to regenerate the burned bodies of those in Hell so they would never completely burn up, giving them all new sensitive nerves so their pain will never cease. A constant process of regeneration and burning that will never end.

I think that may have been one of god of lighting Nicolai Tesla's(my hero) inventions which were stolen by the feds.
Ooh. SOOOO the serpent lives on. He was sent to spoil the ever lasting Adam and Eve test. All of the spectacular findings, accidental discoveries, mis-hap life saving developments, and regular every day tasks have had serpent connotation?

Example: Man wants to buy a car from a car lot. Fancy and NEW. With a budget. Which if not adhered to will without doubt leed to serious financial problems, possible divorce. Because this guy is already walking a tight rope with love and money....cuz thats how life is.

Car sales man:    enters left

Dude: Trying hard to maintain his serious locked in approach:  Hey

carsalesman
Satan: Man you look like a guy who needs a car.

Dude: Yeah. Im trying to stay within the 15k budget, four dour car, like 25 to 30 mph.

carsalesman
Satan: Oh man I got just the one for you dude. Lets take a walk to the side yard!!

Dude: Alright. Man your kool. Everyone says car guys are low lifes. You rock.

carsalesman
Satan: I hope you didn't already start that family up cuz look a this fuckin LAMBO baby.

Dude: Oh man. I thought you were cool man. What's up with that. Im outa here.

SATAN: Wait. This rides for free. Take it. But you have to pick up hookers and do cocaine and all that shit.

Dude: Looks back at his fam......looks at Satan. .. . ..Fuck it ..lets go.

SATAN: I win. God is stupid. I beat him. It was so easy. Ha Ha.


Perfect sense.

Offline Samothec

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Even a sociopath has effects of guilt, tearing a hole in them psychologically.

Nope. A sociopath has no guilt – that is what makes him (or her) a sociopath.


No. I might be angry or vengeful enough to wish someone death, but not eternal agony. And the one being punished in such a manner would soon be insane from unceasing pain and stress; their very identity washed away. So what would be the point, if the subject of such punishment can't even comprehend why it's happening anymore?

Dang it, you stole my answer, er, um, I mean ... Exactly.
While I would very much like to see people like those of Westboro Baptist Church be tortured for a century or two, after that what's the point? I would want them kept out of heaven but that's far from torture. (Assuming heaven isn't all singing god's praises.)

This is one of the aspects that made me realize either god is malevolent or doesn't exist. There can be no benevolent god who also made hell – can't ever exist. And accepting that god doesn't exist is the far sunnier outlook than the alternative.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline carstensenscott

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Nope. A sociopath has no guilt – that is what makes him (or her) a sociopath.

No matter if they acknowledge it, the physical effects that "normal" people experience would still be there. They may be latent, yet they will tear the body apart no matter.

Offline Spit

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Mimes deserve it.  :blank:

Offline Anfauglir

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the power to regenerate the burned bodies of those in Hell so they would never completely burn up, giving them all new sensitive nerves so their pain will never cease. A constant process of regeneration and burning that will never end.

I think that may have been one of god of lighting Nicolai Tesla's(my hero) inventions which were stolen by the feds.
Ooh. SOOOO the serpent lives on. He was sent to spoil the ever lasting Adam and Eve test. All of the spectacular findings, accidental discoveries, mis-hap life saving developments, and regular every day tasks have had serpent connotation?........

Am I the only one who has NO idea how the car slaesman story relates the the subject of the thread?  Carsten, can you help me out, because I don't get what you are trying to say.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline carstensenscott

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It was a ramble on the adam and eve garden of eden proposal. I riddled myself into a hole.

Should have read it to my self again. I will keep it thread worthy. Sorry.
And thanks.

Offline Samothec

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Nope. A sociopath has no guilt – that is what makes him (or her) a sociopath.

No matter if they acknowledge it, the physical effects that "normal" people experience would still be there. They may be latent, yet they will tear the body apart no matter.

You clearly don't understand. Sociopaths are not normal: they have NO guilt. They lack any remorse or shame. Some have learned to fake it but they will not experience any effects at all. There are no "latent" physical or mental effects of guilt in a sociopath.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline J0SH

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Nope. A sociopath has no guilt – that is what makes him (or her) a sociopath.

No matter if they acknowledge it, the physical effects that "normal" people experience would still be there. They may be latent, yet they will tear the body apart no matter.

You clearly don't understand. Sociopaths are not normal: they have NO guilt. They lack any remorse or shame. Some have learned to fake it but they will not experience any effects at all. There are no "latent" physical or mental effects of guilt in a sociopath.
Samothec  is right, sociopaths cannot experience remorse. They gain pleasure from hurting others, they will not feel even the slightest amount of guilt in their actions. It is very sad that such people exist.
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion."  -Robert M. Pirsig
“Be the change you want to see in the world.” -Mahatma Gandhi

Offline carstensenscott

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I get the just of it. But I cannot for some reason see past the sublime. How it works. How it tortures us. Keeps you awake. Nightmares. I understand that they are minus the ability to have feelings of guilt. But before there is a feeling, there is a chemical interaction that sends the signal of it. Perhaps that is where the disconnect is. But when you dam a river, it will over flow in all directions available besides that dam. I just cannot accept that there is NO physical ramifications from the guilt. Wrong or not, it doesnt seem logistically possible that the whole surrounding set of actions leading to guilt would be omitted. Could be im just ignorant and need a PHD in the field to understand. But from here..I dont like it.

Offline Samothec

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Your post shows you haven't got it fully yet but I'll give it one more shot.
But when you dam a river, it will over flow in all directions available besides that dam.
Using you analogy here, yes, if the river exists damming it will cause it to overflow. But you are assuming the river exists. A sociopath's mental terrain is different enough that the river does not exist. In a sociopath's terrain of the Earth[1], the Mississippi[2] does not exist. Not there at all. Period.
And without the Mississippi there will be no New Orleans or any of the other cities which were built because of the river. And none of the bridges are needed. And more.
Getting away from the analogy, sociopaths are not lacking in their ability to observe and mimic other's behavior. This is why sociopaths who kill are so dangerous: they have learned to mimic being a well-adjusted member of society.
Without the signals[3] even being created there can be no ramifications.
People's brains develop differently. An autistic person retains too many neural connections while the average person's brain has strengthened some neural connections while others have atrophied. Damage to the brain can also remove neural connections causing any number of problems. The vast majority of people do have the same general mental terrain. But there are exceptions.
 1. as analogy for their brain's terrain
 2. remorse/guilt
 3. upon which remorse/guilt are based
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 11:06:28 PM by Samothec »
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline screwtape

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this "10 signs of psychopaths" list describes most politicians.  I think it should be part of the constitution that anyone running for any public office should have to take and pass a psych test to ensure psychopaths cannot be elevated to positions of authority.
http://www.naturalnews.com/036112_sociopaths_cults_influence.html

Phrased more professionally, a similar list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath#Psychopathic_Personality_Inventory
Quote
Psychopathic Personality Inventory: Factors and Subscales
PP1–1: Fearless dominance PP1–2: Impulsive Antisociality Coldheartedness
Social influence
Fearlessness
Stress immunity
Machiavellian egocentricity
Rebellious nonconformity
Blame externalization
Carefree nonplanfulness
Coldheartedness


there was some media attention a couple years ago about the relatively high concentration of sociopaths in the ranks of corporate CEOs. Some links on that...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/06/14/why-some-psychopaths-make-great-ceos/
http://www.npr.org/2011/05/21/136462824/a-psychopath-walks-into-a-room-can-you-tell&sc=nl&cc=bn-20110526

a whole blog for psychopaths. literally. http://www.sociopathworld.com/
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Offline Tykster

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^^^^^^^^^

... as well as a basic civics test. Their collective level of stupidity is tragic...
rhocam ~ I guess there are several trillion cells in a man, and one in an amoeba, so to be generous, lets say that there were a billion. That is one every fifteen years. So in my lifetime I should have seen two evolutionary changes.

Offline Quesi

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Somewhere in Hell, Adolf Hitler is writhing it unbearable pain, screaming for the sweet release of death which will never come.  ...Snip...

Just a few yards away, another sinner suffers the very same fate.  Incredible pain wracks her body from end to end, every nerve screaming in sheer agony as cruel and vile injuries are inflicted upon her body, over and over and over.  She would repent for her wrongdoing, but all she knows is a swirl of pain.  So much pain.  Foever and ever, it will never stop.  What's her story?

She was abandoned as a child, and raised by a man who sexually and emotionally abused her for years.  As a teenager, she turned to drugs to cope with her emotional pain, as well as the physical pain inflicted by her abusive boyfriend.  Finally, unable to see a way out, she killed herself.


And that is the problem, isn't it?  Even if you tried to apply the most ethically valid criteria for condemnation to hell,[1]a significant percentage of human beings who commit truly evil acts, were in fact victimized themselves.  How many child abusers were abused as children?  A lot of them never had a chance.  How many young men, traumatized in warzones, commit atrocities that they would never have committed in their hometowns if they had never been sent to war?  How many oppressed people have lashed out at, perhaps even tortured or killed some innocent person who has some of the characteristics of their oppressor?  And what about people with a genetic pre-disposition for anger or people who lack the mental capacity to understand that what they are doing is wrong.

I don't pretend to know much about the topic of sociopaths, but I do know that most experts agree that a combination of genetic and environmental factors contribute to the creation of sociopaths.  There is also some evidence that children with attachment disorders have an increased likelihood of becoming sociopaths.  As an adoptive mom, I know quite a bit about attachment disorders, because they are very frequent among children who were neglected during their first weeks and months of life.  Infants who are not held, cuddled, cooed at, and touched, infants whose caregivers don't ever respond then they cry from hunger or burny diaper rash or cold, often grow into children who missed an important developmental stage, and subsequently lack empathy and the ability to attach to and care about other human beings. 

Do those neglected infants, who grow into sociopathic adults, really merit an eternity of torture?  Wouldn't a loving god have just prevented them from being born in the first place?   Or wouldn't a loving god have made sure that every child is cared for?  Or is this just one of god's fancy tests?  I mean, not ALL neglected infants grow up to be sociopaths.  And not ALL sociopaths grow up to be mass murders.[2]

I hear all the time that god doesn't give anyone more burden than they can bear.  Bullshit.  People pass the breaking point all the time.  And then they get an ETERNITY of damnation and torture for not having been able to pass god's random tests?

Why would anyone want to worship a god like that?
 1. As opposed to spending an eternity in hell for failing to keep the Sabbath holy or for idol worship or for worshiping the wrong god or for worshiping no god at all
 2. Or heads of fortune 500 companies

Offline Samothec

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this "10 signs of psychopaths" list describes most politicians.  I think it should be part of the constitution that anyone running for any public office should have to take and pass a psych test to ensure psychopaths cannot be elevated to positions of authority.
...
there was some media attention a couple years ago about the relatively high concentration of sociopaths in the ranks of corporate CEOs. 
Indeed. From what I have read about sociopaths and their rise within corporations and the government, we owe a fair portion of our economic and political problems to them and the idiotic greed that facilitated them getting hired or elected. Hire a sociopath to fire half your workforce so you don't have to be personally responsible but you still get to crow to the shareholders that you made record profits for the company.


Quesi's post indirectly reminded me of the flip side to the idea of hell. A gentle, kind soul goes to heaven but finds out that someone he/she loves is in hell because of some technicality – how does that not make heaven into hell for them knowing that this person they love is suffering eternally and not for being bad but for something unimportant.
This is one of the points that makes it clear that the whole heaven/hell concept was devised by a human who did not fully consider all the ramifications of what they dreamt up.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Cutdogg

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The Bible writers were uneducated and primitive. So many contradictions, you'd think they would have had the sense to do a final edit or even compare a few verses before they just wrote it down and published it! I myself was a Christian for 40 years and once I truly decided I was going to live the Christian Life and study my Bible like they all say is commanded to grow closer to God and develop more faith, I actually gave up and threw in the towel because once I really studied it I realized all the conflicting messages! Not to mention, all the crazy impossible miracles that were performed back then, but we don't see any of it today! I thought God never changes. If so why haven't I read on the news ever of someone being swallowed by a Whale and living to tell about it? This discussion now is going to be about all the contradictions and impossibilities the Bible has quoted.
    I'll start with how Moses was at Mount Sinai to hear God speak to him and the Bible says he went without food or water for 40 days. Maybe food, but unless humans have extremely changed in last 5 or 6000 years, no man going without water of some kind that long. Average person now dead in 3 days without some form of water. Maybe whoever wrote that never tested that theory out yet.LOL. NEXT!!!

Offline Samothec

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This discussion now is going to be about all the contradictions and impossibilities the Bible has quoted.

No.

If you want a thread about that then start one. You do not deliberately derail a thread because you feel like it.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Add Homonym

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A state of unending torture is common to Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, ...

Christian theology is very bad at explaining why God invented sin and evil, so it may be explained better by saying that God is not in control of bad things, or what happens to non-believers after they die, but does have the power to rescue you from that state. This is not reconcilable with God being an omnipotent God of love. But, then, who says that Christians/Jews have got any of it right, about God being omnipotent, or omniscient? Clearly if God was omniscient, there would be no point in doing anything, and if God was omnipotent, he wouldn't need to do anything, because he could achieve what he wanted without experiments and research.

Christianity has the explanatory power of a 3 year old, who makes stuff up as he goes along, and is proven to be incorrect about everything he says. But that doesn't mean that there is no hell, or that people who go to hell "deserve it".

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Traveler

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I'm unclear what you mean about Buddhism. How does reincarnation deal with unending torture?
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Offline James501

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I'm unclear what you mean about Buddhism. How does reincarnation deal with unending torture?

Reincarnation means entering the flesh again.  I guess the torture could be living in what could be a hellish life on earth - again and again.  The hell on earth experience.
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