Woman Kills Only Two of Three Grandsons Because God Told Her to Spare One.

[BornAgainAtheist]

It would have been nice if God had gone the extra mile and turned her into a pillar of salt before she could harm these innocents. 
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2285932/Debra-Denison-God-spared-13-year-old-son-Mentally-ill-grandmother-fine-picked-grandsons-murder-suicide-suicide-note-reveals-God-told-kill-son.html

[Nick]

This is not the 1st time God has asked someone to kill their relative...right...Abraham.  Prob won't be the last.  But He is a loving God.

[The Gawd]

this was all somehow a lesson to teach me that I cannot live up to gods standard.... somehow

[J0SH]

I've heard of quite of few incidents like this. Usually it was a woman that believed God spoke to them and told them to kill their children. Depressing.

[lotanddaughters]

It would have been nice if God had gone the extra mile and turned her into a pillar of salt before she could harm these innocents. 
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2285932/Debra-Denison-God-spared-13-year-old-son-Mentally-ill-grandmother-fine-picked-grandsons-murder-suicide-suicide-note-reveals-God-told-kill-son.html

Yes, it would have. God's sparing of the one is all I'm going to concentrate on, because I am a religious DUMB FUCK who blindly believes in BULLSHIT. Hallelujah, Amen, as I go through the motions, even though I don't have the faintest clue as to WHAT the fuck I'm TALKING about.

[Badger347]

Peace be with you all. 

The article clearly states she "had struggled with mental health problems," was bipolar, and "her motive for the killings and suicide, remain unclear."  The implication in these posts is religion is contributing to this some how, no?  I fail to see how the facts of this terrible incident implicate religion.  Help me out here. 

BTW God was testing Abraham and stopped him.  Christians believe we have a loving God.  We have no expectations that God would test us in the same way as Abraham.  Christians believe all life is a precious gift from God.  Refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, scripture's commandments for the facts, the actions of the majority of Christians, and not the behavior of a few misguided or mentally ill sinners. 

[Astreja]

BTW God was testing Abraham and stopped him.  Christians believe we have a loving God.  We have no expectations that God would test us in the same way as Abraham.

Why not?  I can think of no logical reason that a god wouldn't repeat a previous behaviour.

And a god that would deliberately submit Abraham to such a horrific test is a psychologically abusive god.  I don't care what its alleged motives are -- It is not loving in any meaningful way, and it is not worthy of respect.

[Seppuku]

I see she did suffer from mental illness, in this particular case I would argue it was more down to mental instability than faith. Perhaps it was thinking that God spoke to her that allowed her to justify it to herself, *shrugs* but we don't know for certain. Whilst I would not place the blame on religion for this particular incident, there are incidents like this where I would. Unfortunately there are teachings in the bible (whether you believe they're applicable or not) that lead people onto do cruel and sick things, even in modern society.

However, as far as mental instability goes, I think religion can have a part to play in it, I'm not suggesting that it was a direct cause to this particular case, but I am highlighting it as a possibility. I think Astreja hits the nail on the head, we are talking about a psychologically abusive God. In some sects of Christianity people are encouraged to repress certain emotions and thoughts and to fear God and what he can do. Some go as far as putting people into a guilt trip for being natural born sinners, like with some Pentecostal Churches. These kinds of things, particularly the repression, can lead to mental illness. So, I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to suspect religion, but of course, we don't know the exact cause.

[Tonus]

An interesting contrast, isn't it?  A woman kills two of her grandchildren but spares the third, and we accept that she is mentally incapable of functioning like a normal adult.  A deity instructs his followers to slaughter all of the men, woman, and boys in a village and spare only the virgin girls, and we accept that he... is a loving, kind, generous, and just deity whose ways are incomprehensible to us.  And it's likely that some people who read this comparison will immediately be offended that I would compare a lowly human to the Most High.

[Seppuku]

I wouldn't compare a human to God, we're talking about a being whose ability to be cruel surpasses that of any man. Yes, people would find it offensive, but I don't think it's unfair. Generally people are more interested in ignoring the negative traits in light of the positive ones.

But I do find it intriguing that we consider this woman to be insane, when people consider crueller deities just.

[The Gawd]

Was she insane? Werent some if not all of the "prophets" in the bible considered insane? Didnt one of those lunatics roam around in the nude? (correct me if I'm wrong) I think its completely plausible that Yahweh, the god of Christianity, and Jesus' dad sat by idly while this women did his bidding.

[Badger347]

quote author=Astreja link=topic=24544.msg547037#msg547037 date=1362812480]

BTW God was testing Abraham and stopped him.  Christians believe we have a loving God.  We have no expectations that God would test us in the same way as Abraham.

Why not?  I can think of no logical reason that a god wouldn't repeat a previous behaviour.

And a god that would deliberately submit Abraham to such a horrific test is a psychologically abusive god.  I don't care what its alleged motives are -- It is not loving in any meaningful way, and it is not worthy of respect.
[/quote]

By definition, God can do anything He wishes, including putting me (any of us) to the test as He did Abraham.  That's not my expectation though because when we look into it we see logical reasons.  The Old testament foreshadows Christ's coming.  Christ has come, Christ did the heavy lifting, the story is told, and I can think of no logical reason test us at this point in time. 

God knows everything, including Abraham's faith.  Stands to reason...He is God!  So, why test Abraham?  Abraham believed if Isaac died God would raise him back to life--sound familiar?  God tested Abraham to make his faith known to himself and others.  Abraham's faith and belief in resurrection paved the way for the resurrection of Christ.  My expectations are God desires me (and others) to be a witness to His goodness for the sake of others. 

If the Nazi's were about to take your child away from you, would you not offer yourself instead?  Is that not love?  That is akin to the love God has shown in giving up His son for us.  A loving God.

[Azdgari]

By definition,

It always makes me wonder if believers realize how much they're revealing when they say stuff like this.  Badger, definition is a human act.  You are basically admitting that the traits of "God" are a result of human definition.  That's why you're citing definition, instead of something else.  If "God" had an objective, real existence, then you couldn't do that.  I couldn't say to you, "by definition, you are an alien from Mars".  Because you're not.  But for things that are imaginary, humans are free to define their traits as those things are created.  A god?  Yeah, we'll define it in X way.  Or in Y way.  Since there's no real god, we're free to do that without being contradicted!

Anyway, I realize that wasn't at all the point of your post.  But it's good to see a believer admit that humans created his god.

God can do anything He wishes, including putting me (any of us) to the test as He did Abraham.

Might makes right, then.

That's not my expectation though because when we look into it we see logical reasons.  The Old testament foreshadows Christ's coming.  Christ has come, Christ did the heavy lifting, the story is told, and I can think of no logical reason test us at this point in time.

That makes sense from a storytelling perspective, if not from a real-history one.  See above re: stories vs realities.

God knows everything, including Abraham's faith.  Stands to reason...He is God!  So, why test Abraham?  Abraham believed if Isaac died God would raise him back to life--sound familiar?

Curious - where is this written in the story?

God tested Abraham to make his faith known to himself and others.  Abraham's faith and belief in resurrection paved the way for the resurrection of Christ.  My expectations are God desires me (and others) to be a witness to His goodness for the sake of others. 

If the Nazi's were about to take your child away from you, would you not offer yourself instead?  Is that not love?  That is akin to the love God has shown in giving up His son for us.  A loving God.

That'd work as an analogy, if you hadn't sent the Nazis yourself.  God, according to the story, has.

[Astreja]

By definition, God can do anything He wishes...

So your morality is based on "Might makes right," then?  Mine is not.  I aspire to greater things.  If a god ordered Me to kill someone I loved,  I simply would not do it.

Abraham believed if Isaac died God would raise him back to life...

I don't remember such a belief on Abraham's part.  Chapter and verse, please?

My expectations are God desires me (and others) to be a witness to His goodness for the sake of others.

Badger, IMNSHO you have a weird idea of "goodness."

If the Nazi's were about to take your child away from you, would you not offer yourself instead?  Is that not love?  That is akin to the love God has shown in giving up His son for us.  A loving God.

Ah, Godwin's Law... (Springy G shakes Her head and sighs heavily)  Are you saying that there's something in this mythical situation that is actually comparable to Nazis attempting to kidnap a child?  In other words, is there something more powerful and threatening out there than your alleged god, something that would necessitate your god giving up its son?

Regardless, I don't do human sacrifices.  I see no virtue at all in the alleged sacrifice of Jesus, and a great deal of intractable evil.  In My opinion, the Sinner's Prayer is the real "Mark of the Beast" because it deprecates personal morality and responsibility in favour of "do whatever it takes to avoid being tortured in the afterlife."

[Tonus]

Curious - where is this written in the story?

It is not found in the Genesis story; Paul says in Hebrews 11:19 that Abraham reasoned that god could "raise [Isaac] up, even from the dead."

I find that this makes the whole concept of blood sacrifices rather spurious.  Paul's comment makes it seem as if Abraham was working with a stacked deck.  Some Christian denominations take the scene to be a prophetic metaphor for god offering up Christ in sacrifice on behalf of humanity.  Seen from this perspective, it's an accurate one.  Just as Jesus sacrificed something that was utterly superfluous to him (life as a flesh-and-blood human) so was Abraham making an offering with the understanding that god could either rescind the demand or, if Abraham went through with it, just apply a cosmic 'cheat code' as needed.  In other words, there's no real expiatory value in spilling blood to gain forgiveness or salvation; it's just another Tree of Knowledge.  God is the sadistic cop, demanding that you undergo the full suite of sobriety tests, not because you showed any evidence of intoxication, but because he was bored, and he 'didn't want his badge to go to waste.'

[nogodsforme]

All the grandmother did was what any loving adult would do: send the children straight to heaven asap. Remember, this world is not the important one. This world is only a test to see who is good enough to make it into the next world. How could anyone who truly believed in heaven disagree with what she did? 

Yes, the woman was crazy, but only because she acted on what many religious people claim they also believe. It is a wonder, as insane as "normal" religious thinking is, that there are any people left alive on the planet.