1 + 1 + 1 = 1

[nogodsforme]

Why are we as bugs to god's big shoe, if we are so important to him? And if we are his most important creations, why is he "distant"? I am curious as to why "distance" would make any difference to god, time and space being his creations also.

Also, dying for a cause, ie being a martyr, is not necessarily a sign of love. Do suicide bombers act out of love? And even if being willing to die is a sign if love in a particular circumstance, so what? Lots of people do that (parents are often willing to die for their children, soldiers die for their comrades).

Why is it so special that Jesus was willing to die to save all of humanity, esp. when he was coming back to life anyway? I would do that--who wouldn't? What is worthy of worship there? I can understand being grateful, but why worship?

[ParkingPlaces]

^^^Yep, dude takes a three day vacation and gets applauded for the rest of eternity.

[Samothec]

I was wrong on my numbers.   We should think in real terms.

We have been. We've also been trying to get you to do the same. This post of yours was a (small) start.

...   Because this is not heaven and God is not here.  God cannot physically heal amputees.  At this distance, he can only heal the Spirit of those interested in healing.
The world is independent.

You have one wimpy God if he is unable to heal amputees. Heck, the Greek(/Roman) gods could do that – or Egyptian or Sumerian or Hindu or ...

[SkyWriting]

You have one wimpy God if he is unable to heal amputees. Heck, the Greek(/Roman) gods could do that – or Egyptian or Sumerian or Hindu or ...

I was not aware of that.

[SkyWriting]

Why is it so special that Jesus was willing to die to save all of humanity, esp. when he was coming back to life anyway?

Two things in answer to your questions.  We are intended to be in God company, but we choose to go a different direction.

Originally, there was no death.  Leaving God's side results in death.  He's not there to stop things from going wrong.
The only solution was for God to pay the price for us so we could have our life back.  Jesus did that.

[SkyWriting]

The gravity cycling theory required the expansion of space to slow.
It was found to be accelerating.
This continues until heat death.

Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily bet on that if I were you.  For one thing, our knowledge is still rather incomplete with regards to the end of the universe.  To presume that the discovery in 2011 is the last word on the subject is...careless, to say the least.

And in any case, we're talking about something that's not going to happen for trillions upon trillions upon trillions of years.  It's so far in the future that it has no real relevance to us except as a matter for contemplation.

The point is that the other direction is not possible.   Energy does not gather, turn to matter, become alive. 
It only goes the other way.

[SkyWriting]

Your moderator insisted it was critical that I use the analogy.  He's god around here.  So I need to worship the analogy.
Your moderator is the big shoe and I'm the bug.

No, the moderator was trying to keep you from dodging the point.  That does not make him a god.  Or the other moderators.  Or the admins.
They do have authority - you could say they're the bosses around here - but that is not even remotely close to the same thing as them being gods, so your inane attempt to 'worship' the analogy just fell flat.
By the way, I know a lot of Christians.  Some of them are pretty decent folk.  But that doesn't mean I'm interested in believing fantasies are true simply because they believe it.
I can respect them without trying to be them.

Are you avoiding explaining the point, or is it lost on you as well?

[SkyWriting]

Your moderator insisted it was critical that I use the analogy.  He's god around here.  So I need to worship the analogy.
Your moderator is the big shoe and I'm the bug.

Now you are just equivocating on the term "God" to avoid being refuted. The moderator likely asked you to use the analogy in order to expose the fallacies in your reasoning process. Sometimes it is helpful to get it out so you (and we) can view your own error. In this case, you have attempted to use a false analogy in an effort to support one of your claims regarding (presumably) how god operates and how he/she/it interacts with us. Since this analogy fails, are you willing to admit it's failure and abandon it? That would be a demonstration of intellectual honesty.

It wasn't my analogy.   Yes, I ignored the request to make an analogy between god above the floor, and me, a bug under the floorboards.  The bug thought that the person was being kind, because it hadn't been stepped on yet.  But that's silly.  That are are many reasons that a bug may be allowed to live other than the big shoe being kind.  The moderator must have thought this was a critical point.  He told me in Green that I had to answer it.

[SkyWriting]

SW

So in other words, god uses a whistle and only dogs can hear it, but us non-dogs, if we close our eyes and believe real hard and click our heels together three times, then we can hear it too. Right? Why didn't your god, back when I was 8 and 9 and 10 and going to Sunday school, etc. whistle for me and let me know he was there, even in just some tiny little way. Enough of a way to cause me to doubt when I started thinking that maybe he doesn't exist? If he is real and if he has superpowers he would have known way back in 1961 that I was starting to look at the world differently and that I was headed towards non-believing and all he had to do was one little tweet on his god whistle to make me reconsider. Probably couldn't be bothered.
Of course you're going to answer that you don't know why god does the things he does, or in this case, doesn't do, because, you know, he had his street cred to worry about. Operating in mysterious ways and all that crap. Other than warm fuzzy feelings and the illusion that you get to live forever in heaven because you've been a good boy, what do you get out of being a believer? What are the real-world benefits for you. Are you earthquake/tornado/hurricane proof? Can you leap tall steeples in a single bound? Do you suffer fewer diseases, milder leg cramps, less hair loss, sneeze to higher quality pollen, drown more beautifully?  I don't need your god to be good, to be happy or to be optimistic. And the only thing less appealing that living forever is shacking up with Honey Boo-Boo's mom. So I guess the big question is this. Why is the idea of a god so important to you and so irrelevant to me? And too, why would I want to be a pet for all of eternity.

It's always good to have a relationship with your parents.  Even when you don't appreciate
the guidance they give or the help they can provide.  Keeping the lines of communication
open will always help.  God is like that too.

If that is your idea of a response, I suggest you find another hobby.

I was enjoying your conversation with yourself and didn't want to interfere with anything important.

[SkyWriting]

Thanks for your interest.  I kept open the possibility that the Christians I knew were not insane for 20 years.
Some of then were a little off balance but eventually I came to respect a handful of Christians a lot.  Thats'
a few out of 100's.  But those few were really the kind of people I wanted to be like.  After taking up my own
study of the beliefs, I got the idea that there may be something to this "relationship" they had.   Then
I found there was.

Why is my life not like your life?   Because this is not heaven and God is not here.  God cannot physically heal
amputees.  At this distance, he can only heal the Spirit of those interested in healing.
The world is independent.

Saying it is so doesn't make it so. Please demonstrate how you know these claims are true. So far, all I see is your big ASSUMPTION regarding your personal interpretation of the bible, and that is not a reliable pathway to separating fact from fiction.

None of that comes from scripture.   Not directly anyway.
Bible believing Christians would not agree with me. 

[SkyWriting]

See this is what I'm trying to get you to realize.  You say these things about God and you hurt.  Your words are nuclear.  Why would Loving God not want to answer my prayer?  What gives you the right to say Loving God would close the account?  That is not LOVE.

I have been warned by the forum staff not to preach.
So the only examples I can give are illustrations
or paraphrases of scripture. 

By forum rules, I can only post my poor restatements
of what scripture says.

Jesus said he was giving His life for our salvation. 
Love has no greater definition than that.

Jesus's act of love has been mooted by his so called followers that insist on using the old testament to condone their hate.  If Moses hadn't gotten things so wrong there would not have been a need for Christ's death.  It was Moses's laws that hung Jesus on the cross!!!

I'm not trying to convince you God doesn't exist, I believe God does.  I just don't believe the biblical authors correctly define God.  I also don't believe Christ's followers portray the Love of Jesus accurately and the result is fewer people subscribing to Christianity becoming atheist or spiritual but not religious.


Are you afraid of hell?  There should be no need to fear a Loving God.  God must love better than me for God created me, IMO.  If I was a mystery I would not punish my creation for not believing in me.  I would only punish those that hurt others and there is a long line of Christians on that list.  I wouldn't burn them for eternity though.  I'd send them back to live the life of the people they hated and condemned in my name like homosexuals.

By the way those 3 letters will keep you out of trouble, it stands for; In My Opinion.  This site requires proof of truth claims.  I learned my lesson the hard way, but it is one that is appreciated.  There is a difference in what you believe and what you can prove about your belief.

I say these things to you out of Love.  I would give my life to abolish religion.  That is how strongly I am against what hatetians/Christians have done to this world.

I am a lesbian going to heaven with my atheist friends, IMO.  Have a blessed day Skywriting.

You pay them too much mind.  See, "this world" has no effect on God.   Christians can start wars, persecute, and run to church every day of the week.  The can have potluck dinners and offer whiskey and Wine as door prises, and raffle off cars ti make money for the church.   None of that has any interference between a person and Jesus.  No effect at all.  All church people are is people born into a world where God does not reside.  Just exactly the same condition as everyone else.   And 'Church people" are absolutely no different.    When they look for god, they find a place that other people are looking too.  That's all a church is, a place where sinners gather.   So let's not expect then to act like angels.  Lets lower our expectations and keep an eye on them like everyone else. 
 Like priests for instance.

[ParkingPlaces]

SW

So in other words, god uses a whistle and only dogs can hear it, but us non-dogs, if we close our eyes and believe real hard and click our heels together three times, then we can hear it too. Right? Why didn't your god, back when I was 8 and 9 and 10 and going to Sunday school, etc. whistle for me and let me know he was there, even in just some tiny little way. Enough of a way to cause me to doubt when I started thinking that maybe he doesn't exist? If he is real and if he has superpowers he would have known way back in 1961 that I was starting to look at the world differently and that I was headed towards non-believing and all he had to do was one little tweet on his god whistle to make me reconsider. Probably couldn't be bothered.
Of course you're going to answer that you don't know why god does the things he does, or in this case, doesn't do, because, you know, he had his street cred to worry about. Operating in mysterious ways and all that crap. Other than warm fuzzy feelings and the illusion that you get to live forever in heaven because you've been a good boy, what do you get out of being a believer? What are the real-world benefits for you. Are you earthquake/tornado/hurricane proof? Can you leap tall steeples in a single bound? Do you suffer fewer diseases, milder leg cramps, less hair loss, sneeze to higher quality pollen, drown more beautifully?  I don't need your god to be good, to be happy or to be optimistic. And the only thing less appealing that living forever is shacking up with Honey Boo-Boo's mom. So I guess the big question is this. Why is the idea of a god so important to you and so irrelevant to me? And too, why would I want to be a pet for all of eternity.

It's always good to have a relationship with your parents.  Even when you don't appreciate
the guidance they give or the help they can provide.  Keeping the lines of communication
open will always help.  God is like that too.

If that is your idea of a response, I suggest you find another hobby.

I was enjoying your conversation with yourself and didn't want to interfere with anything important.

I repeat. I suggest you find another hobby. Doing a copy and paste out of a Dear Abby column or wherever you got that drivel is a waste of everyones time.

[jaimehlers]

The point is that the other direction is not possible.   Energy does not gather, turn to matter, become alive. 
It only goes the other way.

I absolutely beg to differ.  This is a popular misconception by those who don't really understand the nature of entropy (which, at this point, clearly includes you).  You see, entropy simply refers to the amount of energy that is unavailable to do work.  It does not mean that "energy does not gather, turn to matter, become alive".  The only thing that the Second Law of Thermodynamics means is that the total, universal value of entropy cannot decrease.  Beyond that, anything goes - because all the rest of the energy in the universe is available for those sorts of things.

Indeed, we can see this happening in stellar fusion, where stars take hydrogen and fuse it into steadily more massive elements.  That's a reversal of entropy right there - you're taking hydrogen, the simplest element of all, and turning it into things like helium, carbon, oxygen, and iron.  If entropy worked the way you think it does, this would be impossible; stars could not reverse entropy by converting the least complex element of all into more complex elements.

So, how do you justify stellar fusion in your own mind, seeing that you think that it's impossible for anything to go the other way?

Are you avoiding explaining the point, or is it lost on you as well?

If you didn't understand the point, why didn't you ask someone to explain it in the first place?  First off, moderators use green text to signify that they are acting as a moderator.  That's because otherwise, it would be very difficult to tell when they were speaking as a moderator, and when they were speaking as a regular poster.  Second, in this case, the moderator felt that you explaining your own particular reasoning behind the bug analogy would be a good idea, since it can be difficult to understand what a person is thinking about something like that.

If you have further questions, why not ask the moderator in question?  I'm sure he could explain it better than I could.

[Samothec]

In addition to what jaimehlers said – my reply to this:

The point is that the other direction is not possible.   Energy does not gather, turn to matter, become alive. 
It only goes the other way.

That is not true. Too much energy in a single point does in fact turn into matter since matter is a very stable form of a great deal of energy. Atoms are made up of protons, electrons and sometimes neutrons. Protons, electrons and neutrons are made of quarks. Quarks are the smallest particles of matter. We are not be able to "view" individual quarks as it takes a great deal of energy to separate them, so much energy that the moment they separate other quarks are created from that energy and the quarks are still not 'alone'.[1] So, yes, energy does turn into matter - quite readily.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't true.

And before you quote some religious person who doesn't understand science in the least and who makes false claims about the laws of thermodynamics, the people who made your computer were only able to make it because the people who designed it had a factual understanding of thermodynamics. The same facts we are trying to present to you. If we were wrong and the religious guy you got the crap about "Energy does not gather, turn to matter, become alive" from was right then your computer would not work at all. Nor would your phone or car or furnace.

1.	A quark-gluon plasma would need an estimated temperature of about 1.9×1012 Kelvin creating a plasma of freely moving quarks and gluons. These would still not be lone quarks. Yeah, this bit is way beyond SW's understanding but it's still cool info.

[median]

It wasn't my analogy.   Yes, I ignored the request to make an analogy between god above the floor, and me, a bug under the floorboards.  The bug thought that the person was being kind, because it hadn't been stepped on yet.  But that's silly.  That are are many reasons that a bug may be allowed to live other than the big shoe being kind.  The moderator must have thought this was a critical point.  He told me in Green that I had to answer it.

And regardless of which way you slice it, the analogy still fails. Bugs and humans are DEMONSTRABLE. And just like all the other man-made fake deities of history, your alleged deity Yahweh is NOT.

[median]

Why is it so special that Jesus was willing to die to save all of humanity, esp. when he was coming back to life anyway?

Two things in answer to your questions.  We are intended to be in God company, but we choose to go a different direction.

Originally, there was no death.  Leaving God's side results in death.  He's not there to stop things from going wrong.
The only solution was for God to pay the price for us so we could have our life back.  Jesus did that.

But he allegedly created and designed it all to happen that way, right? So it's your God's fault that it happened. He's the one who actually kicked us overboard only to want some kind of sick sadistic worship for "saving" us from a rule that he himself invented in the first place. Btw, you just contradicted yourself. He's not there to stop things from going wrong? Really? How about allegedly "paying the price for us so we could have our life back"? Somehow that wasn't an attempt to stop things from going wrong? There are so many holes in your story it's utterly surprising that you can't see them.

Originally there was no death? How do you know this? Again, you keep preaching (i.e. - regurgitating paraphrased bible passages) instead of actually demonstrating how you know these things to be true. Assuming your bible in advance doesn't cut it, sorry.

[median]

You pay them too much mind.  See, "this world" has no effect on God.   Christians can start wars, persecute, and run to church every day of the week.  The can have potluck dinners and offer whiskey and Wine as door prises, and raffle off cars ti make money for the church.   None of that has any interference between a person and Jesus.  No effect at all.  All church people are is people born into a world where God does not reside.  Just exactly the same condition as everyone else.   And 'Church people" are absolutely no different.    When they look for god, they find a place that other people are looking too.  That's all a church is, a place where sinners gather.   So let's not expect then to act like angels.  Lets lower our expectations and keep an eye on them like everyone else. 
 Like priests for instance.

I'll make you a deal. I will lower my expectations when it comes to the actions and habits of professing Christians if you lower your expectations/assumptions that the bible is divinely inspired. Deal?

[SkyWriting]

You pay them too much mind.  See, "this world" has no effect on God.   Christians can start wars, persecute, and run to church every day of the week.  The can have potluck dinners and offer whiskey and Wine as door prises, and raffle off cars ti make money for the church.   None of that has any interference between a person and Jesus.  No effect at all.  All church people are is people born into a world where God does not reside.  Just exactly the same condition as everyone else.   And 'Church people" are absolutely no different.    When they look for god, they find a place that other people are looking too.  That's all a church is, a place where sinners gather.   So let's not expect then to act like angels.  Lets lower our expectations and keep an eye on them like everyone else. 
 Like priests for instance.

I'll make you a deal. I will lower my expectations when it comes to the actions and habits of professing Christians if you lower your expectations/assumptions that the bible is divinely inspired. Deal?

"Divinely inspired" is not very strong.    That covers most Christian music.

I took 20 years before I decided the scriptures were correct accounts of history.   

[SkyWriting]

Why is it so special that Jesus was willing to die to save all of humanity, esp. when he was coming back to life anyway?

Two things in answer to your questions.  We are intended to be in God company, but we choose to go a different direction.

Originally, there was no death.  Leaving God's side results in death.  He's not there to stop things from going wrong.
The only solution was for God to pay the price for us so we could have our life back.  Jesus did that.

But he allegedly created and designed it all to happen that way, right? So it's your God's fault that it happened. <snip>

God decided that freedom to choose to be with Him was better than not having any choice. 
God seems to be pro-choice on this matter.

[SkyWriting]

It wasn't my analogy.   Yes, I ignored the request to make an analogy between god above the floor, and me, a bug under the floorboards.  The bug thought that the person was being kind, because it hadn't been stepped on yet.  But that's silly.  That are are many reasons that a bug may be allowed to live other than the big shoe being kind.  The moderator must have thought this was a critical point.  He told me in Green that I had to answer it.

And regardless of which way you slice it, the analogy still fails. Bugs and humans are DEMONSTRABLE. And just like all the other man-made fake deities of history, your alleged deity Yahweh is NOT.

He has demonstrated His existence.  Starting with all the Creation of matter you see around you.
You don't normally see matter appearing for no good reason.
Well there's a lot of space.   And for some reason, here we are looking at it.
Scientifically speaking, all life comes from life and all mass and energy from an even greater source.
You can't get something from nothing.  And our "something" is seemingly infinite in size.

[naemhni]

He has demonstrated His existence.  Starting with all the Creation of matter you see around you.

That isn't even close to proving the existence of any deity at all, let alone the Abrahamic one.  Just for starters, you would have to demonstrate that the universe was created, which no one has ever done.

You don't normally see matter appearing for no good reason.

Wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Well there's a lot of space.   And for some reason, here we are looking at it.

The reason we're looking at it is simply that we exist.  that's all.

Scientifically speaking, all life comes from life and all mass and energy from an even greater source.

Science does not say that.  In fact, quite the contrary.

You can't get something from nothing.

How do you know?

And our "something" is seemingly infinite in size.

False, but even if true, it would still be irrelevant.

[SkyWriting]

He has demonstrated His existence.  Starting with all the Creation of matter you see around you.

That isn't even close to proving the existence of any deity at all, let alone the Abrahamic one.

No, I didn't say prove.

[naemhni]

He has demonstrated His existence.  Starting with all the Creation of matter you see around you.

That isn't even close to proving the existence of any deity at all, let alone the Abrahamic one.

No, I didn't say prove.

Fine, if you insist:
"That isn't even close to demonstrating the existence of any deity at all, let alone the Abrahamic one."

[jaimehlers]

No comment on stellar fusion, SkyWriting?  Does that mean you're conceding the point that energy can "go the other way"?

[median]

He has demonstrated His existence.  Starting with all the Creation of matter you see around you.
You don't normally see matter appearing for no good reason.
Well there's a lot of space.   And for some reason, here we are looking at it.
Scientifically speaking, all life comes from life and all mass and energy from an even greater source.
You can't get something from nothing.  And our "something" is seemingly infinite in size.

How funny that you just contradicted yourself and can't even see it. You really need to study logic b/c your arguments are fallacious. What we see is infinite? Then no god is necessary!

1. Nature doesn't tell you how it got here until you investigate, and claiming "You can't get something from nothing" shows how ignorant you are of cosmological science. The Big Bang theory DOES NOT say something came from nothing. You are ignorant.

2. Just because "we are here" doesn't mean a God did it - anymore than it means a magic unicorn did it. You are trying to use the logical fallacy called The Argument from Incredulity (i.e. - the Argument from Ignorance). At best, you should admit ignorance - that you don't really know how we got here, not just ASSUME "It's impossible!" when you don't know that either.

3. "Scientifically speaking" you don't know WTF you're talking about. Science does NOT say that all life must come from life. There are multiple experiments that have been done which demonstrate that life common from none living organic material is not impossible.

Please visit the site www.talkorigins.org to educate yourself. You need to stop reading biased creationists and start reading real science.

[The Gawd]

this whole thread is getting more funny with each post.

SW, dont you see the fact that things dont just pop up as evidence against yahweh and any other diety? You see if these myths were real then you would EXPECT to see things just pop in to existence. You would expect another planet in the solar system out of the blue. You would expect sandwiches to appear in the hands of starving children... but of course we never see this happen. Its because there is no such thing as yahweh.

[SkyWriting]

this whole thread is getting more funny with each post.

SW, dont you see the fact that things dont just pop up as evidence against yahweh and any other diety? You see if these myths were real then you would EXPECT to see things just pop in to existence. You would expect another planet in the solar system out of the blue. You would expect sandwiches to appear in the hands of starving children... but of course we never see this happen. Its because there is no such thing as yahweh.

That is the nature of our existence on earth.  This is not Heaven, or paradise.  This is a mild form of Hell.

[Astreja]

That is the nature of our existence on earth.  This is not Heaven, or paradise.  This is a mild form of Hell.

If this were so, SW,[1] why does your purported god allow such a place as an earthly hell even exist?  Why does it sit by and allow so many children to be born into a hellish place, only to die before they even have a chance of hearing what it supposedly wants of them?  If their lives are already fated to be short and painful, why not birth them into heaven instead?

My personal take on this, of course, is that neither heaven nor hell actually exist -- And if you see every square inch of this beautiful planet as hell, you're not doing this "life" thing right.  Better to make the world a kinder, safer place one action at a time than to just curse it and give up.

1.	But I really don't think so.

[jaimehlers]

That is the nature of our existence on earth.  This is not Heaven, or paradise.  This is a mild form of Hell.

That undercuts your argument even more, seeing as you've never been to Hell in the first place and thus have no basis for comparison.

Frankly, that's the entire problem with beliefs about Heaven and Hell.  Nobody has ever actually been there, or come back from there.  Nobody has any idea what they're actually like, or if they even exist in the first place.  It's always been things that people have seen in visions.  Which could just as easily be produced by the human mind, and not have anything to do with any deities in the first place.  Therein lies the problem.