My Journey to Hell in a Nut Shell

[Andy S.]

Hello. My name is Andy. I was once a believer in Christ, I was definitely a big Bible thumper.  I was all in when it came to my Christianity.  I went to church regularly and taught Sunday school with my wife.  I actually studied the Bible and wanted to make sure that I had full truth.  My first problem came when I began to study the trinity and realized that the orthodox view was problematic in a lot of ways so I abandoned that view.  I found out that according to most Christians (I spoke to several pastors and fellow Christians) if you don't believe in the trinity you aren't saved (John 8:24). I eventually abandoned my faith after continuing to look into textual and biblical criticism. However, the main reason I left my faith was that there is more than one gospel presented in the New Testament (hence all the denominations). I wondered why an omnipotent and omniscient God would make salvation so confusing and unclear. I also took a look at all the atrocities in the bible that was advocated by Yahweh and had to ask myself if this is a God that is worthy of worship. 

I haven't yet jumped over the fence to atheism and as of right now (until I'm given adequate evidence of macro-evolution) I am a deist. My "spiritual" journey is based solely on evidence and I go wherever the evidence leads me.  The evidence I received from investigating the Judeo-Christian Bible made it clear to me that this Bible cannot be the revealed word of God.  Unfortunately, by logically examining the evidence, I am now destined for the Christian Hell. 

I look forward to learning more from the individuals on this forum.

[Traveler]

Hello and welcome!

The good news is that the odds are extremely low that the christian hell exists. Why, oh why, would a loving god create an infinite torture for finite sins?  And if there is a god who is so evil as to do so, it does not deserve our worship.

I hope you enjoy it here. 

[One Above All]

Welcome to the forum.

[Dante]

Welcome to the fray, Andy.

(until I'm given adequate evidence of macro-evolution)

I've always found the structure of whales to be a fairly significant, obvious, and straightforward prism to see that macro-evolution is indeed happening. YMMV.

[Nick]

Welcome Andy,

   Your problem is that you are using rational thought and trying to fit God into that field.  Most Christians just buy the line given and move along.  Congrats on being one of the few who really look at the thing we call religion.

   Personally, I think the Trinity thing came along when they needed to fit a "one" true God into several characters to make it all work.  The early Church did the same thing with saints and Mary.  They are lesser powers who can get the Big Guy to help us.  They had to merge other religions together and this is how it worked out.

Oh, Happy St. Pat's day (coming up on Mar 17th).. .St. Pat, besides getting rid of the snakes in Ireland, explained the Trinity with a 3 leaf clover. (Did not do much for me).

Oh, if you get to Hell try to get a room with a view.

[nogodsforme]

Hi Andy;

Logical, critical thinking will take you far. Unfortunately, it will take you far out of your comfort zone. Many of us were religious, mostly Christians, before realizing that none of it made any sense. And the deist (or "agnostic" for some) is a reasonable interim step.

For me, the last straw was discovering that people of different religions believed in them as strongly as Christians do. Either all of them were true or none of them were.  I was new agey "agnostic" (the "all of them are true" option) for a while until that too dropped away.

It is a journey. But I think most of us don't regret leaving religion behind.

[ParkingPlaces]

Welcome Andy. We'll be happy to take you the rest of the way to atheism. Or not. Up to you. But at least I don't think we'll have to cook up a book full of excuses about why what we imagine is true, or why what we experience is not.

You've already come to your senses. Stick around here and come to ours! 

We'll be happy to talk about macroevolution in our "Evolution vs. Creationism" section, or better yet, just the "Science" section. We love to talk about stuff like that.

[J0SH]

Hello, welcome. I'm a new member here as well; in fact, I've just joined this forum. I have a similar experience to yours, once a believer, now an ex-christian. I left Christianity because of the "Hell" part of the doctrine, which drove me to insanity for a period of time but it no longer bothers me anymore as I can see what complete and utter bullshit it actually is. I can't wait to be able to post my own introduction, but I cannot do so yet until I do the mandatory three replies to other threads in the forum. As to the last part of your original post, if you are damned to the Christian Hell then I am as well, as well as billions of other people. So I'll see ya there, buddy! (Heh) 

[Jag]

Hi Andy S, welcome!

If it turns out that we're all wrong, and the christian god is both real, and as described in the Bible, then we're all bound for their hell. At least we'll have each other for company and good conversation.

Lucifer apparently also thought god was an asshole, considering the rebellion; we'll have that in common.

[mrbiscoop]

Welcome to reality.

[Fiji]

(until I'm given adequate evidence of macro-evolution)

Give "climbing mount improbable" a try, good read that one.

And welcome to the forum.

[The Gawd]

Welcome Andy! Lotsa smart people that can learn you lots of stuff here. The best part about it is they dont just tell you what to believe, it generally will come with a link to credible sources.

[screwtape]

Welcome Andy.  I was a deist once myself.  It was for a couple weeks between when I realized the bible was garbage and the time I realized the whole idea of a god was unsupportable.

[Tonus]

I haven't yet jumped over the fence to atheism and as of right now (until I'm given adequate evidence of macro-evolution) I am a deist. My "spiritual" journey is based solely on evidence and I go wherever the evidence leads me.

Perhaps the best part of removing the shackles placed on us by religion is the freedom to learn.  It is not easy to undo all of the sloppy and mistaken teaching regarding evolution (I'm still working to separate what's true from the mess that religion creates) but doing so allows a much better understanding of the evolutionary process.  The willingness to learn without a set of blinders on is, in itself, an invaluable gift.

[jetson]

Welcome.

On the evolution issue...think about micro-evolution, and how it allows small changes where the species look similar, but can no longer mate successfully.  Now, think about granting "micro-evolution" hundreds of millions of years.  Could you not imagine that enough small changes add up to really big changes?  There you go...

Imagine, no god required.

[Andy S.]

On the evolution issue...think about micro-evolution, and how it allows small changes where the species look similar, but can no longer mate successfully.  Now, think about granting "micro-evolution" hundreds of millions of years.  Could you not imagine that enough small changes add up to really big changes?  There you go...

Imagine, no god required.

Yes, I totally get that understanding of macro-evolution.  I had a wrong understanding of the definition of macro-evolution.  I guess what I meant by macro-evolution is "I am a deist until I am given hard evidence of how something can come from nothing" (how life can come from non-life).  I go wherever the evidence takes me.  Until I'm given sufficient evidence, then a God (creator) is "required" for my worldview because I see so much evidence around me that design comes from a designer (life comes from life).

[jetson]

Yes, I totally get that understanding of macro-evolution.  I had a wrong understanding of the definition of macro-evolution.  I guess what I meant by macro-evolution is "I am a deist until I am given hard evidence of how something can come from nothing" (how life can come from non-life).  I go wherever the evidence takes me.  Until I'm given sufficient evidence, then a God (creator) is "required" for my worldview because I see so much evidence around me that design comes from a designer (life comes from life).

Ah, well no worries - the theory of evolution has nothing to say about how life got started!

If I am still alive when science figures that one out, I will be most pleased.

[Graybeard]

I haven't yet jumped over the fence to atheism and as of right now (until I'm given adequate evidence of macro-evolution) I am a deist.

Of all the things that amaze me, non-acceptance of Evolution is probably the greatest. Those who go in for a Young Earth, I can dismiss as deluded along with flat-earthers, the ether that pervades space and spontaneous generations.

Those who see religion as a philosophy with a narrative and all writings as "symbolic", I can live with - it could have been any -ism.

Christians (and other religions) speak of "having to accept the spirit" to understand. This is a travesty of logic - first you believe then you understand then you believe. So believing in Evolution without evidence is equally stupid. The difference is that the evidence is there to be found.

And what's the alternative? Man was magicked out of dust? All the animals were placed here but then they changed? Why? Why would some mighty being who understood exactly how chlorophyll converts light and water to sugar and oxygen make a mistake with the millions of species that have gone extinct? Or was it that conditions cause them to die out, whilst others, over millions of years, adapted?

Nobody gets given adequate evidence of macro-evolution (or as I call it, 'evolution') - they go out and find it. I suspect that there would be no point some of us here telling you anything about evolution. Start at the beginning, understand as you go along, reason why these things are so and why the supernatural has no need to exist, and does not and cannot exist.

Did I say "Welcome!"? I should have done.

[Andy S.]

Of all the things that amaze me, non-acceptance of Evolution is probably the greatest. Those who go in for a Young Earth, I can dismiss as deluded along with flat-earthers, the ether that pervades space and spontaneous generations.

Those who see religion as a philosophy with a narrative and all writings as "symbolic", I can live with - it could have been any -ism.

Christians (and other religions) speak of "having to accept the spirit" to understand. This is a travesty of logic - first you believe then you understand then you believe. So believing in Evolution without evidence is equally stupid. The difference is that the evidence is there to be found.

I "religiously" believe in evolution as you see it.  However, I had a wrong understanding of the definition of macro-evolution.  I guess what I meant by macro-evolution is "I am a deist until I am given hard evidence of how something can come from nothing" (how life can come from non-life).  I go wherever the evidence takes me.  Until I'm given sufficient evidence, then a God (creator) is "required" for my worldview because I see so much evidence around me that design comes from a designer (life comes from life).

Nobody gets given adequate evidence of macro-evolution (or as I call it, 'evolution') - they go out and find it. I suspect that there would be no point some of us here telling you anything about evolution. Start at the beginning, understand as you go along, reason why these things are so and why the supernatural has no need to exist, and does not and cannot exist.

I'm learning everyday now about evolution now that I have my "fundamentalist" blinders off.  I was seriously a believer in a young earth for a long time.  I just went to the Zoo today and could visualize the different adaptations.  However, I don't know yet if I could make that jump that we all came from bacteria.  Furthermore, until I'm given evidence that says life can come from non-life or the self-replicating DNA molecule has been found, I will remain a deist.  It is definitely an extremely apathetic God that I believe in and I really could care less if I abandon my deism (maybe I am created in his image ).  Like I said, I go where the evidence takes me.  But as of now, my reason (for what that's worth) is telling me to stick with deism.  There is too much evidence around me that tells me intelligent design needs a designer.

[The Gawd]

@ Andy

I have a buddy, one of my closest friends, who actually has the same stance as you. He is a deist because its the only way he can make sense of existence. I dont think its uncommon, and the fact that there is no dogma attached to it personally makes it a non-factor for me (not that it even matters what I think). I think there is a thread in the science forum where inorganic material was turned into organic material. Looks like they are making progress.

[Brakeman]

Here's some good info:

[Dante]

Granted, we dont yet have evidence how life started on this planet, although we're getting closer. The thing I don't understand is how one can make the jump form "I don't know" to "a god did it".

And given the track record of science and nature vs. gods, I'll be betting on natural explanations all day long.