Author Topic: Big Question [#2726]  (Read 898 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Big Question [#2726]
« on: February 23, 2013, 10:40:07 PM »
Dear, Author

 

            What you have done is quite impressive. You raise many great points about validity of the bible and how people interpret it! However, I feel that you're message is quite off putting. You cannot deny, no matter how hard you try, that the bible does have good messages. Yet, you seem to ignore these messages in favor of using points against the bible. Believe what you would like to believe, but in order to gain a large following you cannot simply disregard the entire bible. To further enhance your book, I recommend trying to analyze the bible, ignoring the cultural paradigms of the time. I think you will find that even in todays world, the bible has some relevancy. I myself do not read the bible as often I should; However, I try to also send the message of love to those around me.

 

            As to the question of why God does not heal amputees, well, God doesn't give all students A's in class either. Nor does he give all people equal money, some people are just born in different circumstances. I believe that God gives equal opportunity to everyone. Whether you be poor, rich, young, or old. These opportunities are not for money, or materialistic things; these opportunities are for happiness and for the ability to spread happiness. Everyone has the equal capacity for love, no matter who you love. This is where God is fair. The poor may find it hard to find food, yet they have the same capacity to love and to be loved. The rich may find it easy to eat, yet they find themselves to connected to their material things to find love.

 

            If you are looking for the perfect image of God, It does not exist. The world is hard, and we are built on a system which favors inanimate object for companionship. No one is equal economically.  Yet everyone is given equal opportunities for happiness.

 

            Whatever you do, whether it be condemning the bible, or condemning Christianity entirely, go ahead. But try to treat your neighbor as yourself. And love. I am a Christian, and in my opinion the bible has no more relevancy than the Qur'an or any other religious text. They all attempt to spread the idea of love.

 

Thanks for listening,

            Anonymous

 

(p.s. condemning Christianity is not loving, Condemning those who attempt to spread fear is, do that, I do that all the time.)
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2013, 11:25:07 PM »

You cannot deny, no matter how hard you try, that the bible does have good messages. Yet, you seem to ignore these messages in favor of using points against the bible.

You don't apper to deny that the bible has awful, awful messages.  I don't think anyone denies that the bible has a few good things to say, but the awful messages cannot be ignored.


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To further enhance your book, I recommend trying to analyze the bible, ignoring the cultural paradigms of the time. I think you will find that even in todays world, the bible has some relevancy. I myself do not read the bible as often I should; However, I try to also send the message of love to those around me.
 

Now this, I have to flat out disagree with.  The bible should be looked at with its cultural context in mind.  The book(s) was written 2,000+ years ago, and was made for the people of the time, and their culture and understanding of the world was much different than what we have today.  That needs to be understood when reading it.


           
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As to the question of why God does not heal amputees, well, God doesn't give all students A's in class either. Nor does he give all people equal money, some people are just born in different circumstances. I believe that God gives equal opportunity to everyone. Whether you be poor, rich, young, or old. These opportunities are not for money, or materialistic things; these opportunities are for happiness and for the ability to spread happiness. Everyone has the equal capacity for love, no matter who you love. This is where God is fair. The poor may find it hard to find food, yet they have the same capacity to love and to be loved. The rich may find it easy to eat, yet they find themselves to connected to their material things to find love.
 

            If you are looking for the perfect image of God, It does not exist. The world is hard, and we are built on a system which favors inanimate object for companionship. No one is equal economically.  Yet everyone is given equal opportunities for happiness.

No; people do not recieve equal opportunities for happiness.  People do not recieve equal opportunities to spread happiness.  Not everyone has the ability to love.  I'm guessing you're young and naive, so I won't hold this statement against you. 

This statement is also telling in another way; god will, in fact, never heal an amputee, nor help us in any direct way.  So we have to do all the hard work ourself.  Prayer is useless.  In which case, I actually kinda agree with what you're saying (though not for quite the same reasons).  But then... why worship this god of yours?

 

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Whatever you do, whether it be condemning the bible, or condemning Christianity entirely, go ahead. But try to treat your neighbor as yourself. And love.

Neither love or "treat your neighbor as yourself" requires the bible to be possible.


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I am a Christian, and in my opinion the bible has no more relevancy than the Qur'an or any other religious text. They all attempt to spread the idea of love.

Well, that's quite the minority opinion you got there, I'll give you that.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2013, 11:46:31 AM »
Plus one to any one who can find and post the pic of the kid in Africa about to be lunch for the vulture.  That will say what I want to without any more words.  (Does not seem like a fair opportunity to me).
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Online Graybeard

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2013, 12:15:25 PM »
Dear, Author
You cannot deny, no matter how hard you try, that the bible does have good messages. Yet, you seem to ignore these messages in favor of using points against the bible.

The Bible is both good and original. The trouble is that the good parts are not original and the original parts are not good.

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To further enhance your book, I recommend trying to analyze the bible, ignoring the cultural paradigms of the time.

I am afraid that that suggestion will have to be placed in the garbage bin. You see, the Bible was “of its time” – what else could it be? You would not think of studying Shakespeare without reference to his time, much of what he says was based upon events that occurred in his lifetime or happened in what was then the recent past. It is essential that the historical context is understood completely that the message might be understood.

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I think you will find that even in today’s world, the bible has some relevancy.

I am afraid that this statement fails because it is far too general. I have no idea if you mean that the Bible is relevant today as it condemns murder (as all civilisations condemned murder), or if the Bible is relevant today because it tells us there are witches and demons.

You see, we cannot ignore “the cultural paradigms of the time.”

The law of the Bible (i.e. the criminal and civil law in Leviticus) is lifted from Hammmurabi; The Flood is lifted from The Epic of Gilgamesh; The virgin birth is lifted from countless gods who were born this way; the rising from the dead has its origins in other myths.

This is why I earlier said that “The trouble is that the good parts are not original and the original parts are not good.”

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I try to also send the message of love to those around me.

I’m sure that is very nice for them. There have been people like that from the dawn of time. That is why we are where we are now.

What was your point? It’s not very clear.

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As to the question of why God does not heal amputees, … I believe that God gives equal opportunity to everyone.

Your logic seems to have let you down. You know that a child, born healthy of Harvard Graduates in good employment positions is not equal to the child born of a widow fleeing the violence in Somalia – yet you make this statement.

You are obviously using the word “equal” in some specialised way that only you understand.

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these opportunities are for happiness and for the ability to spread happiness.

Tell me of the Somali chid destined to die of malnutrition before his mother also dies the same way. How, exactly do they “spread” happiness? – Or are you using “spread” and “happiness” to mean something else?

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Everyone has the equal capacity for love, no matter who you love. This is where God is fair.

Your logic fails again! Look around you – the ignorant, the poor, the violent, A child brought up in an abusive home is not going to have the full capacity, is he? 

I'm afraid that your vivid imagination is leading you away from reality.

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The poor may find it hard to find food, yet they have the same capacity to love and to be loved.

Exactly how poor? You do not understand, do you? And what on earth use is “a capacity to be loved” when death faces you in a strange country and devoid of anyone to help? Does God help here? NO – He watches them die in their thousands.

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The rich may find it easy to eat, yet they find themselves to connected to their material things to find love.

1. Name a few poor religious leaders… 2. Why should the rich always be singled out? It seems to me that you are stirring up hatred of the rich, whom you wish us to despise. It seems that you want to bring out jealousy and envy in us and then say "Ah, but you who are not rich are better than the rich, aren't you?

What sort of a message are you giving us here?

 
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If you are looking for the perfect image of God, It does not exist.

But this does not stop people like you from imagining what God is like – but none of you follow the Bible, because you pick and choose things that suit you – God turns out to be very much like the believer – Man creates God in his own image.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online Graybeard

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2013, 12:21:30 PM »
Plus one to any one who can find and post the pic of the kid in Africa about to be lunch for the vulture.  That will say what I want to without any more words.  (Does not seem like a fair opportunity to me).



(No need for +1)
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2013, 12:56:25 PM »
There was another thread a while back that revolved around the vulture photo, here's a link to it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23570.msg528987.html

Its a pretty interesting read for anyone who might be curious about the photo's backstory.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2013, 01:23:15 PM »
Thanks DF,

If we ever redesign the site or branch off...whatever happens...we should have this pic on our front page.  Hard to justify the existence of a higher power and look at that.  Where is that lady in another thread hoping God gives her a new house, or Wayne bosting how God and he are so close, or all the other Christians who spout aboput how a loving God will always hear you and knows what is best for you...you just have to have faith.  LOOK AT THAT PIC AND TELL ME THERE IS A GOD.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2013, 03:13:43 PM »


           Nor does he give all people equal money, some people are just born in different circumstances. I believe that God gives equal opportunity to everyone. Whether you be poor, rich, young, or old. These opportunities are not for money, or materialistic things; these opportunities are for happiness and for the ability to spread happiness. Everyone has the equal capacity for love, no matter who you love. This is where God is fair. The poor may find it hard to find food, yet they have the same capacity to love and to be loved. The rich may find it easy to eat, yet they find themselves to connected to their material things to find love.

Wow. 

Do you know that every year on planet earth, about 7 million children under the age of 5 die?  Many of dysentery or starvation or amoebas eating away at their innards.   Do you know how many children are raped by their caretakers?  Have you ever met a torture survivor?

You seem like a good person.  Look into your heart.  Do you believe that your god gave these human beings the same opportunity for happiness that he gave you?

Why don't you join the forum?  I'd be interested in learning more about your beliefs. 

Offline screwtape

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2013, 08:36:23 AM »
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You cannot deny, no matter how hard you try, that the bible does have good messages.

what message would that be?  that just thinking bad thoughts is as bad as doing them?  That's not a good message.  That my default fate, and that of every human being born, is to be tortured eternally?  That is not a good message.  That in order to avoid that fate someone else had to die unjustly and take my punishment for me?  That is not a good message. 

Exactly what good message are you talking about?

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I recommend trying to analyze the bible, ignoring the cultural paradigms of the time.

but the culture of the time is highly relevant. It is the context.  It shows us who wrote it. You cannot take it out of that context.


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As to the question of why God does not heal amputees, well, God doesn't give all students A's in class either.

You miss the point of the question. 

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning.  First, data shows many of these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers.  It seems to be a natural response or a misdiagnosis.  Second, people of all religions make the same claims.  And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally. 

People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.

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I am a Christian, and in my opinion the bible has no more relevancy than the Qur'an or any other religious text.

Then you are either not a xian or you do not understand the bible

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They all attempt to spread the idea of love.

You do not understand the bible or the koran

 
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2013, 09:51:10 AM »
            Whatever you do, whether it be condemning the bible, or condemning Christianity entirely, go ahead. But try to treat your neighbor as yourself. And love. I am a Christian, and in my opinion the bible has no more relevancy than the Qur'an or any other religious text. They all attempt to spread the idea of love.

Ah, ok, guess that explains why you're putting forward a thoroughly Islamic position, earlier in your message ...

            As to the question of why God does not heal amputees, well, God doesn't give all students A's in class either. Nor does he give all people equal money, some people are just born in different circumstances. I believe that God gives equal opportunity to everyone. Whether you be poor, rich, young, or old. These opportunities are not for money, or materialistic things; these opportunities are for happiness and for the ability to spread happiness. Everyone has the equal capacity for love, no matter who you love. This is where God is fair. The poor may find it hard to find food, yet they have the same capacity to love and to be loved. The rich may find it easy to eat, yet they find themselves to connected to their material things to find love.


This comes, almost verbatim, from the Quran. Though, the Quran being the Quran, there it's worded rather more agressively, which brings me to my second point ... the bolded part in the first quote ... Love? In the Quran? you've never read the damn thing, have you? Allah doesn't even demand that his slaves LOVE him ... he just want's their worship and obedience. And no, 'slaves' is no slip of the keyboard. Do you know what the word 'Islam' means? No, it's not 'peace' as Muslims like to claim. Islam is 'those who aslam' and aslam is 'to (utterly) submit'.
Well, sure, I guess you could make the claim that, if everyone utterly submits, then you indeed have peace. Ever read 1984? In the end Smith too loves Big Brother and is at peace. Somehow, living out my days like Winston Smith doesn't seem too appealing.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2013, 03:47:26 PM »
Dear, Author

 

            What you have done is quite impressive. You raise many great points about validity of the bible and how people interpret it! However, I feel that you're message is quite off putting. You cannot deny, no matter how hard you try, that the bible does have good messages. Yet, you seem to ignore these messages in favor of using points against the bible. Believe what you would like to believe, but in order to gain a large following you cannot simply disregard the entire bible. To further enhance your book, I recommend trying to analyze the bible, ignoring the cultural paradigms of the time. I think you will find that even in todays world, the bible has some relevancy. I myself do not read the bible as often I should; However, I try to also send the message of love to those around me.

 

Lets start off with this. First: we don't believe the Bible to be accurate, nor God real. Why when there's thousand and thousand and thousands of people making there living off of telling people only the good and palatable parts of the Bible, would we expend effort in that regard? Furthermore, what is the message of love you speak of? Obey my every demand and worship me, or burn forever; if you make an error,well, if you grovel sufficiently I'll overlook it. That's the core message...and buddy, that ain't love.

Look at the God of the Bible like you would a neighbor. No matter what wonderful things he might do, he's killed a lot of people that he could have avoided killing and isn't remorseful about it. In fact, plans to kill more(Revelations) So would you spend a lot of time telling people about his nice side, or move?


But ultimately, the question here of WWGHA is about demonstrating that there isn't evidence of Bible God, not one whit given the most common piece of evidence people like to trot out is a miracle of healing.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 03:49:44 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Aceluffy

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2013, 01:47:38 AM »
Dear anonymous;

Instead of addressing every single point you make in your initial post, I'll just start by asking you this:
Which part of the picture in the attachment says "God gives equal opportunities to everyone" ?

This happened in Indonesia. A country dominated by religious people, particularly Islam and Christian.
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Big Question [#2726]
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2013, 05:47:53 AM »
Dear, Author

            What you have done is quite impressive. You raise many great points about validity of the bible and how people interpret it! However, I feel that you're message is quite off putting. You cannot deny, no matter how hard you try, that the bible does have good messages.

I love it when I do not need to read any further.

Regardless of your praise for the many great points the book raises, to consider that the "bible" does have good messages is to ignore the fact that many books have good messages and the bible is not at all unique in this regard. However, the book that is viewed as encapsulating moral behavior and morality itself is chock-full of disgusting things, and to ignore those disgusting things obviates the usefulness of the book.

If you can't see the immorality of the bible, what good is referencing it? If you can't see the morality of non-biblical (non-religious) works, what good is morality?

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