Author Topic: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH  (Read 6200 times)

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2013, 06:41:13 PM »
Quote from: graybeard
You know, I often wonder how Ecclesiastes ever made the cut at Nicaea.

I guess for the same reason it's in the Jewish canon.

Quote from: Graybeard
This is simply not so. I don’t know whether you just invented an answer or that you think this might be true. The fact of the matter is that the Bible assures us that God is sovereign and all-powerful, and nothing happens that is outside of His control. No matter where we are or what we're doing, God's presence still surrounds us.

"If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there" (Psalm 139:.

I didn't say he didn't know.  I said everything that happens isn't a result of divine intervention.  Your scripture is completely off target.

Quote from: Graybeard
Then we have so-called Christians who think that Satan does the bad things or encourages man to do them. However, we must never, ever forget that God created Satan and let him loose upon the earth.

God knew what he was doing. He knew what would happen, but he did it nevertheless. He could, of course, destroy Satan… but He does not

I can see you've not given this much thought.  Let's say he destroyed Satan.  What about the angels that sided with him?  Destroy them too?  What about ones that may think similar things in the future?  Destroy them too?  What about humans that do the same things?  Destroy them too?  Anyone that disobeys him in the slightest?  Destroy them too?  Who would be left?  Thankfully, that's not what he has chosen to do.

Quote from: Graybeard
Do you think, for one moment that a Supreme Being who wiped men women and children off the planet with a flood would be bothered about a car crash in Detroit that left a few people crippled? If you do, you are living in cloud-cuckoo land. He does that to teach someone a lesson.

Let's compare.

"And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And God saw the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth...........And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them"

So he was destroying wicked corrupt and violent people.  +1 for Jehovah.  Now let's look at this.

"And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah............And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for the ten's sake."  (Gen 18)

But he didn't find even ten.  Even then he still did save some.  He did not destroy the righteous with the wicked.  Furthermore, before he takes such decisive action he prophecies it in advance like he has done with Armageddon.  So a random car wreck is not because of divine punishment as is clearly shown by Solomon whether you choose to accept it or not.  I assume you do not accept his final conclusion either, "This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecc 12:13)  You are free to reject it but you are not free to change what the Bible says to fit your own false doctrine.

Quote from: Graybeard
So, let me hear you agree – God did it! Yes, everything! Yes – blind children, brain injured women, men crippled with disease – nations embroiled in war - horrible accidents - a sparrow dying - He did it all – and there is no getting away from it.

That is Yahweh – The God of Thunder and War.

You are incorrect.  Those things are a result of man's independance from God.  Do you remember where he placed the first humans?  He put them in a place that afforded them his protection in exchange for obediance.  They were not obedient and therefore did not maintain the protection provided by their God given home.  The same applies today.  If the Prodigal Son wants his father's protection he's going to have to return to his father.

You list of scriptures say nothing of the topic at hand.  Jehovah has executed judgement against wicked people in the past and will do so in the future, but he doesn't use car wrecks.  Any judgement executed by him will not leave you guessing if it's from God or not.  HE will make it plenty clear to everyone just like he has made it plenty clear he will have an accounting with the "kings of the earth" in the future.  They certainly are deserving of one.

Quote from: 12 Monkeys
AHHHH but none of God's plans could be  successful without the failures he depended on for the plan to work. The flood maybe an exception..... but without failure in the Garden and his "son" where would God be now?

Knowing there would be obstacles, not failures, does not mean anything.  The goal is to have an earthly paradise such as was created in the beginning.  Because he may have known what would happen in the Garden of Eden doesn't mean he shouldn't have created it.  But even through the obstacles there have always been those that loved Jehovah and their neighbors.  These are the ones that will reap the ultimate benefits of God's purposes for the earth.  So it is not a loss nor a failure.  The only ones that lose are the ones that refuse to love God and their neighbor.   




Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Aspie

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2013, 08:11:26 PM »
Quote
Knowing there would be obstacles, not failures, does not mean anything.

To the contrary, especially considering you are appealing to these "obstacles" to absolve God of all negative responsibility for his own plan of creation as though the only way he could ever be responsible for anything is through "divine intervention", IE interfering with his own perfect plan. You're basically using the protection racketeer defense - God isn't the guy responsible for the people who break your kneecaps, he's the guy who simply warns you that bad things may happen if you don't pay up, just sayin'. If he knows that you won't pay him and has it set up so the boys will spring into action then clearly the only possible motive for him to pose the friendly offer is to be punitive. Knowing makes all the difference here.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 09:22:36 PM by Aspie »

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2013, 09:58:19 PM »
Quote
Knowing there would be obstacles, not failures, does not mean anything.

To the contrary, especially considering you are appealing to these "obstacles" to absolve God of all negative responsibility for his own plan of creation as though the only way he could ever be responsible for anything is through "divine intervention", IE interfering with his own perfect plan. You're basically using the protection racketeer defense - God isn't the guy responsible for the people who break your kneecaps, he's the guy who simply warns you that bad things may happen if you don't pay up, just sayin'. If he knows that you won't pay him and has it set up so the boys will spring into action then clearly the only possible motive for him to pose the friendly offer is to be punitive. Knowing makes all the difference here.

Well the alternative to existence is non-existence.  Instead of destroying us, he has allowed us to live in a fallen condition in order that he may save seom from non-existence.  Those that choose it will receive it.  Those that choose life will receive life.  There is no injustice in that.  What kind of God would he be if he knew he could save some of us and didn't?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline carstensenscott

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2013, 10:08:51 PM »
What kind of God would he be if he knew he could save some of us and didn't?

This my friend is not a question but the answer to the whole thing. he is not. he cannot. he dont.

Offline Aspie

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2013, 10:21:24 PM »
Okay, so you're going with "it's his way or the highway". Yeah, that totally absolves him of all responsibility right there - my mistake.  &)

And way to dance around the issue again by tacitly blaming the victim. It's mighty impressive that a single man can put us into a "fallen state" all by his lonesome, no? No assistance from above at all, no wave of the hands, no chanting of the incantation, just BAM! Do I have that kind of magical power, too? Maybe I can turn people into toads?

So why would anybody need to live in a fallen condition in order for him to save anybody from non-existence? And why does his perfect plan suffer from a serious case of the obstacles? If this is your idea of all-powerful you can consider me underwhelmed.

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2013, 10:23:22 PM »
Well the alternative to existence is non-existence.  Instead of destroying us, he has allowed us to live in a fallen condition in order that he may save seom from non-existence.  Those that choose it will receive it.  Those that choose life will receive life.  There is no injustice in that.  What kind of God would he be if he knew he could save some of us and didn't?

The injustice lies in creating something in a "fallen condition" and then punishing it for not being perfect.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2013, 04:35:25 AM »
Do you remember where he placed the first humans?  He put them in a place that afforded them his protection in exchange for obediance. 

Hold on though - if they were in a place under Yahweh's protection, how did the serpent get in there in the first place?  They did not disobey until AFTER the serpent had had a chance to conuse and corrupt them, so where exactly does the "protection" come in?  Is that not a bit like saying "I protect my children from child molestors by keeping all the doors to the house unlocked and letting anyone come in and talk to them"?

Of perhaps easier to turn that question around and ask - what exactly WAS Yahweh "protecting" them from at that point? 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2013, 10:41:27 AM »
If mankind obeyed then noone would be starving.  That's what I'm trying to get you to see.

Say you have nation 1, who follows all God's law (living in harmony), and then nation 2, who is now ruled by Hitler, just stomps all over nation 1, and uses them for sex slaves. The basic premise of Judaism, is that if you followed God's law, then you would have magical "blessings" and be protected. However, Christian/Jews will now make excuses why nation 1 got stomped upon by Hitler: (1) they weren't perfect enough, (2) it was part of God's plan, or a test, (3) ALL of mankind wasn't following God's law.

Note: my initial start conditions are a perfect nation 1, who does not have corruption, poor education, human rights abuses, stupidity, and "Satan" eating it out from the insides. Even if the entire world was magically in harmony, a 1km asteroid could still whack right into it, and theists would then make excuses (1) they weren't perfect enough, (2) it was part of God's plan, or a test.  ... Or a wheat fungus could wipe out the entire crop, and that would be because we didn't follow some hint in Psalms, about knitted socks. It could never be God's fault, because by definition, God doesn't have any faults.

Perfect food distribution and harmony could also be established if any entire world simultaneously followed any single ethical rule-set, slavishly, like robots, and intelligently developed itself. However, Abrahamic God didn't give out a perfect rule-set. He told people to go forth and multiply, without (1) any population constraints (2) any environmental legislation. He also gave lots of examples of how you were allowed to slaughter neighbouring tribes, select women by rape, enter into polygamous relations, and keep half the population as slaves. At no point do Judaism or Christianity suggest that a society should use reason, logic, science or intelligence to overcome the limitations of its bronze age origins, and develop more sane rules, concerning children, women, slaves, warfare, homosexuals, and stoning everyone.

I will give you this, though. If the entire world suddenly started following God's law (whatever that is), and all 7 billion were magically educated in science and philosophy, and practiced awesome Buddhist meditation techniques, and pacifism, then we would probably live in peace and harmony, for a while. However, there exists a few problems with achieving your communist nirvana, in practice:

(1) Despite everyone claiming conversations with God, he is very sparing on real information, like how to avoid cancer, cure potato blight, levitate objects. It's almost as if God wants us to do the hard yards, and be in struggle for thousands of years. Despite the best intentions, some people believe complete crap. The truth can only be decided by "doing the experiment", and failing badly. Example: Communism. Another example: monetarists believe that you can run interest rates down to 0%, and the economy will still be OK. (This is actually accidentally following God's law on usuary.) Example: The trickle down effect. Example: Free trade will fix Africa. Example: fossil fuels. Example: fishing reefs with dynamite.

(2) No matter how "good" your society is, God always seems to make another society, next door, believe in a different God. He does this by making his information very lame, and only believable if you are a fruitcake. Even though people say they "believe" in God, very few have belief that would allow them to make even minor changes to their lifestyle, or stop eating KFC. It's mostly an act, because God says he will burn you in hell (cf Islam, Buddhism, Vindaloo).

(3) God, for some reason, created man as a creature who had two options: (1) to live nomadically, illiterate, pointlessly,  in low populations, (2) to live in agrarian civilization, doing more labour than any other animal, and made us unable to eat any foods that haven't been bred for 15,000 years. I notice, with interest, that many animals seem adapted to their environment, and can eat grass. They can live in harmony, without a complex legal system, army, and slaves.

(4) God also created us with a strangely intense and variable sex urge, because we would otherwise have the intelligence to not bother with reproduction. This urge is terribly disruptive to communal living, esp when coupled with all the venereal disease that God invented. (Although it can be explained by evolution, religion's handling of it is poor.)

===================

I guess what I'm saying is that: your arguments seem to answer the last post, but are not generally substantiated. I don't know, you might have provided proof of something, somewhere. Evolution and absence of God seems to explain better, why the world is a shit hole, in parts. The theist view is a way of inserting a God, into a silent-God world, without having to prove it's true, and always having excuses when it fails.

Here's a thinking exercise for you: can you think of a situation where you could not explain away God's world; his action or inaction? Is there anything you cannot explain, by arbitrary excuses? I bet with your attitude that I could explain anything, and it would work until a few posts away, when someone pulled me up, and I needed to make a new excuse.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2013, 10:50:50 AM »

Hold on though - if they were in a place under Yahweh's protection, how did the serpent get in there in the first place?  They did not disobey until AFTER the serpent had had a chance to conuse and corrupt them, so where exactly does the "protection" come in?  Is that not a bit like saying "I protect my children from child molestors by keeping all the doors to the house unlocked and letting anyone come in and talk to them"?

Of perhaps easier to turn that question around and ask - what exactly WAS Yahweh "protecting" them from at that point?

I'm just going to make up some arbitrary shit to answer anything you just said, and you won't be able to fault me.

Quote
Hold on though - if they were in a place under Yahweh's protection, how did the serpent get in there in the first place?

That was God's plan. We needed free will, to enable free choice of God's law, so that we would know that we were ignoring God's law.

Quote
They did not disobey until AFTER the serpent had had a chance to conuse and corrupt them, so where exactly does the "protection" come in?

That wasn't God's plan. Judaism is not part of Christianity, and you are reading far too much into it.

Quote
Is that not a bit like saying "I protect my children from child molestors by keeping all the doors to the house unlocked and letting anyone come in and talk to them"?

Well, without molesters, we wouldn't have a diverse universe, and everything would be nothing.

Quote
Of perhaps easier to turn that question around and ask - what exactly WAS Yahweh "protecting" them from at that point?

A life of total boredom.

See, can't fault anything I say, unless you get the real God to sign a Stat Dec. Did I sound too fatuous with any of those answers that required zero intellect or evidence to come up with?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2013, 01:16:10 PM »
JST

 God did destroy all the wicked with the flood,he left seven to survive (Noah and family) God could then have imprisoned Satan and the fallen Angels in Hell and started fresh,why did he fail,bad planning,stupidity,imperfection???

 Leaving only 7 holy people (again they were not holy either) would be the perfect time to rid the ONLY planet in the UNIVERSE God has interest in of ANY and ALL evil.
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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2013, 03:24:21 PM »
JST

 God did destroy all the wicked with the flood,he left seven to survive (Noah and family) God could then have imprisoned Satan and the fallen Angels in Hell and started fresh,why did he fail,bad planning,stupidity,imperfection???

 Leaving only 7 holy people (again they were not holy either) would be the perfect time to rid the ONLY planet in the UNIVERSE God has interest in of ANY and ALL evil.

You guys seem to focus on little pieces only and not the big picture.  From the beginning Jehovah introduced his solution to the problems inherited from Adam and Eve.  Did he know they would fail and did he already plan the solution?  I don't know.  But Genesis 3:15 is the first statement made about it his solution.

Then came the flood.  Before this time there was little to no divine intervention.  What was the result?  The world became so bad in his sight he destroyed it.  This shows that, left to his own devises, man will end in destruction as judgement for it's own wicked and violent ways.  This was not done for Jehovah's benefit.  This was for our benefit so that we may learn that lesson from it.  We are a stiff necked people and must learn everything through trial and error.

After this Jehovah introduced the next step in bringing about his solution, after proving the world needed a solution.  He determined that he would set up his own theocratic kingdom over the earth to solve the problems of mankind.  This is where he created the nation of Israel.  Thay that sat upon the throne were said to sit upon "Jehovah's throne".  So Israel was the beginning of this kingdom.  Israel was also to produce a permanent heir to the throne. 

When the time came, Isreal rejected it's king.  Jehovah therefore gave this kingdom to the early Christian Congregation.  Since that time, Christians have been gathering subjects for that kingdom.  Today the search for subjects is earth wide.  Once all the subjects have been gathered then the next step will begin.  Everything is right on time and working perfectly according to plan.

Quote from: Aspie
Okay, so you're going with "it's his way or the highway". Yeah, that totally absolves him of all responsibility right there - my mistake.

Unless of course there is only one way and he is telling us what it is.  Love God and love your neighbor is the only way to succeed.  Mankind is still trying to prove otherwise and Jehovah is allowing them time to prove it.  If mankind wants God's help then mankind needs to quite trying to prove God wrong and start loving one another and quit rejecting his help.  That's the thing.  He offers but mankind rejects it.

Quote from: DumpsterFire
The injustice lies in creating something in a "fallen condition" and then punishing it for not being perfect.

He didn't create it in a fallen condition.  He created perfect humans in an earthly paradise and he's not punished anyone for being in a fallen condition.  In fact, he is saving those that will allow it.  I do not ascribe to the doctrine of a torturous hell since that is not what the Bible teaches.

Quote from:  Add Homonym
Evolution and absence of God seems to explain better, why the world is a shit hole, in parts.

Actually I think the answers are about the same.  I'm not the one that insists that if God exists there would be no suffering.  What causes the greatest amount of human suffering is other humans.  It's no big mystery.  But those that are causing such suffering are not the ones following Jesus' command to "love your neighbor as yourself".

Quote from:  Add Homonym
Is there anything you cannot explain, by arbitrary excuses? I bet with your attitude that I could explain anything, and it would work until a few posts away, when someone pulled me up, and I needed to make a new excuse.

I am not stating anything of my own, I'm stating what the Bible says.  If you view that as arbitrary then you are free to do so.  I just want to set matters straight on what the Bible actually says.  But yes, there are things I cannot explain.  I cannot explain why people think that the commands to love God and love your neighbor as yourself comes from an evil arbitrary God.  I cannot really explain why God didn't do things differently.  I can theorize on what God could have done but I cannot determine what God should have done.  I just know what he has done and why.



Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2013, 04:17:09 PM »
Quote from: Dumpsterfire
It is incredibly frustrating when theists say things such as this, akin to "If there's no god, why do you guys talk about him so much?"

It's incredibly frutrating to me for an atheist to say, "If there's a God then goddidit" and refuse to acknowledge the real problem.

We acknowledge the real problem. The real problem being there isn't a God, and people like you don't want to face that fact.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2013, 04:37:03 PM »
Quote from: Dumpsterfire
It is incredibly frustrating when theists say things such as this, akin to "If there's no god, why do you guys talk about him so much?"

It's incredibly frutrating to me for an atheist to say, "If there's a God then goddidit" and refuse to acknowledge the real problem.

We acknowledge the real problem. The real problem being there isn't a God, and people like you don't want to face that fact.

You're right, if there's no God then that's definately a problem.  But if I don't accept that how does that affect you?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Aspie

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2013, 05:08:32 PM »
Unless of course there is only one way and he is telling us what it is.  Love God and love your neighbor is the only way to succeed.  Mankind is still trying to prove otherwise and Jehovah is allowing them time to prove it.  If mankind wants God's help then mankind needs to quite trying to prove God wrong and start loving one another and quit rejecting his help.  That's the thing.  He offers but mankind rejects it.

You are sorely mistaken if you believe anyone in this thread other than you to be under any obligation to prove anything. We need not resort to abuser apologetics in order to justify anything, nor pasting euphemisms over cracks in bald assertions to hide their flimsiness (as though your choice word "obstacles" somehow makes God seem more successful), nor impugning the motives of everyone who doesn't think like us - we need only point out the inconsistencies, the mental gymnastics, and the convenient unfalsifiability of your claims. Whether you accept this is of no consequence regardless of how hard you try to make this all about us.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 05:43:02 PM by Aspie »

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2013, 06:35:48 PM »
JST

 My question was why he did not rid the world of evil when he killed all but 7 in the flood,seemed like the perfect time to do so.

 WHY kill everyone but 7,but leave evil in the world......makes God a mindless maniac at best and a senseless MURDERER. Why would a perfect being not then rid the world of Satan and his minions then? If God does not rid the world of evil at this time he MURDERED millions,if he rids the world of evil then there at least a REASON to MURDER.

 Jst,face it,your God is not real,if he is he is a mass murder for the above reason of his senseless killing,so he could carry out yet another flawed plan.

 IF he rids the world of evil WHILE killing millions,there is no Jesus,no Christianity and the Jews would still be God's chosen race. Why is your God so incompetent? If you look at him as incompetent,YOU then get the bigger picture.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 06:39:51 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2013, 08:42:17 PM »
Unless of course there is only one way and he is telling us what it is.  Love God and love your neighbor is the only way to succeed.  Mankind is still trying to prove otherwise and Jehovah is allowing them time to prove it.  If mankind wants God's help then mankind needs to quite trying to prove God wrong and start loving one another and quit rejecting his help.  That's the thing.  He offers but mankind rejects it.

You are sorely mistaken if you believe anyone in this thread other than you to be under any obligation to prove anything. We need not resort to abuser apologetics in order to justify anything, nor pasting euphemisms over cracks in bald assertions to hide their flimsiness (as though your choice word "obstacles" somehow makes God seem more successful), nor impugning the motives of everyone who doesn't think like us - we need only point out the inconsistencies, the mental gymnastics, and the convenient unfalsifiability of your claims. Whether you accept this is of no consequence regardless of how hard you try to make this all about us.

Okay, thanks for the advice.

Quote from:  12 Monkeys
WHY kill everyone but 7,but leave evil in the world......makes God a mindless maniac at best and a senseless MURDERER.

How so?  What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

Quote from: 12 Monkeys
Why would a perfect being not then rid the world of Satan and his minions then? If God does not rid the world of evil at this time he MURDERED millions,if he rids the world of evil then there at least a REASON to MURDER.

I told you.  At this point he began setting up a theocratic government that will come to rule the entire earth for 1000 years.

Quote from: 12 monkeys
IF he rids the world of evil WHILE killing millions,there is no Jesus,no Christianity and the Jews would still be God's chosen race. Why is your God so incompetent? If you look at him as incompetent,YOU then get the bigger picture.

How is he incompetent when he tells what he's going to do and then does exactly that? 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline carstensenscott

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2013, 09:48:18 PM »
How so?  What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

I am blown away that you are actually trying to represent this as something you believe in. At this point you just sound like you're playing devils advocate or trolling. Or you are so brainwashed (obvious) that this kind of nonsense actually makes sense to you. WOW.

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2013, 09:55:35 PM »
How so?  What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

I am blown away that you are actually trying to represent this as something you believe in. At this point you just sound like you're playing devils advocate or trolling. Or you are so brainwashed (obvious) that this kind of nonsense actually makes sense to you. WOW.

Seriously?  Then please present your evidence they didn't deserve the death penalty?  You cannot call God evil for destroying them if you have no real evidence either way.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #76 on: February 25, 2013, 10:26:31 PM »
Seriously?  Then please present your evidence they didn't deserve the death penalty?  You cannot call God evil for destroying them if you have no real evidence either way.

In the states that still allow capital punishment, the only crime subject to the death penalty is murder. Unless every person outside Noah's family had already been murdered by other people except that one last murderer[1], then people were put to death that didn't deserve it.
 1. which would mean only one human being died in the flood
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2013, 10:37:46 PM »
What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

My new sig.  Few quotes portray the bloodthirsty immorality of Christian ethics as well as this.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #78 on: February 25, 2013, 10:42:30 PM »
Seriously?  Then please present your evidence they didn't deserve the death penalty?  You cannot call God evil for destroying them if you have no real evidence either way.

In the states that still allow capital punishment, the only crime subject to the death penalty is murder. Unless every person outside Noah's family had already been murdered by other people except that one last murderer[1], then people were put to death that didn't deserve it.
 1. which would mean only one human being died in the flood

In which country?  Please prove these laws are superior to all others.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline carstensenscott

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #79 on: February 25, 2013, 10:48:53 PM »
My eyes are burning reading this nonsense. How can someone who "believes" in an "all loving god" go as far as this. None of your responses even remotely represent LOVE. And they are spawned from you love for this dead book. WHY?

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #80 on: February 25, 2013, 11:10:57 PM »
My eyes are burning reading this nonsense. How can someone who "believes" in an "all loving god" go as far as this. None of your responses even remotely represent LOVE. And they are spawned from you love for this dead book. WHY?

I never said Jehovah was an "all loving god".  Here is a list of some things he actually hates.

1.   Homosexual acts (Leviticus 18:22).

2.   Bestiality (Leviticus 18:23)

3.   Idols, and the materials used to make idols (Deuteronomy 7:25)

4.   Blemished sacrifices (Deuteronomy 17:1)

5.   Worshipping the sun, moon or stars (Deuteronomy 17:3-4)

6.   Divination (Deuteronomy 18:10)

7.   Astrology (Deuteronomy 18:10)

8.   Enchanters (Deuteronomy 18:10)

9.   Witches (Deuteronomy 18:10)

10.   Charmers (Deuteronomy 18:11)

11.   Wizards (Deuteronomy 18:11)

12.   Necromancers (Deuteronomy 18:11)

13.   Transvestitism (Deuteronomy 22:5)

14.   The hire of a whore (Deuteronomy 23:18)

15.   Remarriage to a former wife after she has been married to another man (Deuteronomy 24:4)

16.   Dishonest scales (Deuteronomy 25:13-16)

17.   Workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5)

18.   The wicked (Psalm 11:5)

19.   Those who love violence (Psalm 11:5)

20.   The froward [perverse] (Proverbs 3:32)

21.   A proud look (Proverbs 6:16-17)

22.   A lying tongue (Proverbs 6:17)

23.   Hands that shed innocent blood (Proverbs 6:17)

24.   A heart that devises wicked imaginations (Proverbs 6:18)

25.   Feet that are swift in running to mischief (Proverbs 6:18)

26.   A false witness who speaks lies (Proverbs 6:19)

27.   Anyone who sows discord among brethren (Proverbs 6:19)

28.   Lying lips (Proverbs 12:22)

29.   The sacrifices of the wicked (Proverbs 15:8)

30.   The ways of the wicked (Proverbs 15:9)

31.   The thoughts of the wicked (Proverbs 15:26)

32.   The proud in heart (Proverbs 16:5)

33.   Those who justify the wicked (Proverbs 17:15)

34.   Those who condemn the just (Proverbs 17:15)

35.   Vain sacrifices (Isaiah 1:13)

36.   Feasts as Israel celebrated them (Isaiah 1:14)

37.   Robbery for burnt offering (Isaiah 61:8)

38.   Idolatry (Jeremiah 44:2-4)

39.   Evil plans against neighbors (Zechariah 8:17)

40.   False oaths (Zechariah 8:17)

41.   Divorce (Malachi 2:14-16)

42.   The deeds of the Nicolaitans (Revelation 2:6, 15)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 11:15:10 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline carstensenscott

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #81 on: February 25, 2013, 11:32:32 PM »
Old testament much?   DERP.

I dont get why you cant see your downfall. This is modern day. We dont believe in gods. They are cryptic and absurd.

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #82 on: February 25, 2013, 11:47:09 PM »
In which country?  Please prove these laws are superior to all others.
Why, the good ol' US of A, of course, which is why I referenced "states" in my post. Figured you'd be sharp enough to catch that. As the nation most stricken with xtianity (not to mention the land in which you reside), I would hope that you would consider our laws to be superior. On the other hand, if you're looking for countries that apply the death penalty to the greatest number of offenses there are several places under Sharia law that might do the trick. Xtians are not generally accepted there, however, so I'd advise you to keep your head down.
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Think for yourself.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2013, 01:28:22 AM »
  Mankind is still trying to prove otherwise and Jehovah is allowing them time to prove it.  If mankind wants God's help then mankind needs to quite trying to prove God wrong and start loving one another and quit rejecting his help.  That's the thing.  He offers but mankind rejects it.

Can you actually demonstrate that the Bible says that God is giving us the chance to prove that there is no other way, besides Jewish/Christian law? Or, is that something arbitrary that you made up?

1) My reading of the Bible, is that God told a small crowd of Jews to obey him, on pain of public execution, and they would have "blessings in the field" if they did. They tried to obey God for 600 years, but ended up in constant captivity. Then a person-god "came", called Jesus, who told Jews that there was now a new set of ultra-strict laws, that they had to follow, or Jews would individually burn in hell. (Hell being a new invention, as well as individual responsibility.) And, BTW, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

2) Man has always believed that [a] God's law would magically deliver him from evil. The problem is that it has not worked, and cannot be implemented. Communism was an incomplete ideological attempt at implementing some concepts of Christianity. Christianity promises that if you give away all your wealth, and live in a shared household, you will receive a hundredfold in this life. It's a premise of Christianity, yet Christians still don't do it. What I'm getting at, here, is that even atheists inflict Christian ideals upon the population. The philosophers that created the ideas in Christianity, were so ideologically convincing that they have duped both atheists and Christians alike, into believing that the ideology works, but it actually can't, when you analyze it, because it is so imbalanced and incomplete.

Everything has to fall back to capitalism, because capitalism keeps personal productivity higher, by rule of the buck. It's some irony that the human idea of cooperation creates a culture that is so diverse that it can't be managed except by brutal economic laws. If we were hunter gatherers, in a productive land, like the south of Japan (a real Eden), then we could just walk around, hunt ducks and gather berries. No need for capitalism. However, there would be no ruling class, actors, scientists, musicians, oncologists, dentists, accountants. Specialization in civilization creates a severe management and productivity problem. How many nurses and teachers should you have, and who gives them food and housing? How many sick people can you afford to have, who feeds them, and what do you do with the ones who are really sick? You can't solve these problems, except by being brutal and negligent.

3) In Jewish history there has never been any proof that following God's law results in any kind of perfect society, nor is there any theological reason for a society to become perfect, since Christians have apparently been going to heaven, in the meantime. Again, this is not stated in either Judaism or Christianity anywhere, so could not be a real part of the religion. It's only hinted at in Isaiah 11, but I'm likely to ignore it, because it's just ideological hyperbole, about lions eating straw, and animals defying their physiological point of existence. I say a society is not perfect, if animals hang around and do nothing.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2013, 06:07:20 AM »
Do you remember where he placed the first humans?  He put them in a place that afforded them his protection in exchange for obediance. 

Hold on though - if they were in a place under Yahweh's protection, how did the serpent get in there in the first place?  They did not disobey until AFTER the serpent had had a chance to conuse and corrupt them, so where exactly does the "protection" come in? ..... What exactly WAS Yahweh "protecting" them from at that point?

.....left to his own devises, man will end in destruction as judgement for it's own wicked and violent ways.....
.....(Yahweh) He created perfect humans in an earthly paradise.....

Whoah, whoah - hold on: backtrack.

You've said that Yahweh created perfect humans in a paradise, where they were under his protection. 

So how DID the serpent get in there to trick them?
What protection WAS Yahweh offering them?
How COULD a "perfect human" do something wrong?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2013, 08:14:54 AM »

You're right, if there's no God then that's definately a problem.  But if I don't accept that how does that affect you?

As one individual? Not much, you simply have a delusion. The fact that millions hold that delusion and exert pressure on science, education, legislature, military decision, healthcare, taxation, commerce, the penal system, and so forth....it affects me daily.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #86 on: February 26, 2013, 11:25:21 AM »
I asked you why Yahweh did not rid the world of evil when he killed all but 7 in the flood. If he kills all but 7 and leaves evil in the world then he is a senseless murderer. If he kills all but 7 but removes evil from the world (Satan and his minions) at least he has accomplished something to make the world a better place. Since he did not rid the world of its evil,he is a murderer.

 I never offered up an explanation on why God thought he should kill men women and CHILDREN,just that he murdered them without the goal he had in mind,ridding the world of evil.......just pointless murder in an angry rage without the end purpose of NO MORE EVIL
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 11:28:22 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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