Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH

[Dante]

But most theists always say "goddidit" whenever something good happens, but never when something bad happens. A plane crashes, an earthquake strikes, a tsunami makes landfall, and it's always "god's grace" that allowed any survivors at all, but it's never god's fault it happened in the first place? Why do you get to have it both ways?

If some unexplained thing happens and it works out for the good, say a plane is saved from crashing sparing many lives, maybe it was divine intervention and maybe it wasn't.  There is no evidence either way and believing it was an act of God does not make is so.  Nor does believing it was not an act of God make that so.  But it still would not be inappropriate to thank God if for no other reason than to thank him that good things happen.

So, we're just supposed to thank the gods all willy nilly, but never to assign blame, even haphazardly. That's still having it both ways. And nonsense. But it does serve to show that even though so many believers thank god at the drop of a hat, or for finding a good parking place[1], it may be unjustified praise, in your view.

Thanks for your answers, and have a great weekend!

1.	see what I did there? ;-)

[Jstwebbrowsing]

So, we're just supposed to thank the gods all willy nilly, but never to assign blame

Blame for what?  If I walk off a cliff to my death is it God's fault because gravity exists?  But if I walk off that cliff and don't die, I'm going to thank God.

[Dante]

So, we're just supposed to thank the gods all willy nilly, but never to assign blame

Blame for what?  If I walk off a cliff to my death is it God's fault because gravity exists?  But if I walk off that cliff and don't die, I'm going to thank God.

Why? You said it may have had nothing to do with divine intervention.

If a tree falls in front of you, but doesn't land on you, you thank god.

If a tree falls on you, and you live, you thank god you lived.

If a tree falls on you and you die, it was god's will.

God, in your eyes, is never a loser, even if he wasn't involved in the event.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

If a tree falls on you and you die, it was god's will.

I am not crediting God with either one.  I am simply thanking him I'm alive.  I do this even when nothing bad happens.  I am just more vividly thankful when I almot die.  When I thank God for my food I'm not thanking him for gathering it and cooking it for me.  I'm thanking him for creating such tastey delights and my abilitiy to enjoy them.

[Dante]

If a tree falls on you and you die, it was god's will.

I am not crediting God with either one.  I am simply thanking him I'm alive.  I do this even when nothing bad happens.  I am just more vividly thankful when I almot die. 

But, again, why? Why give thanks even if he had absolutely nothing to do with the event? Just because you're not sure if he had a hand in it? So, sort of like Pascal's wager?

[Jstwebbrowsing]

But, again, why? Why give thanks even if he had absolutely nothing to do with the event? Just because you're not sure if he had a hand in it? So, sort of like Pascal's wager?

I'm not thanking him for divine intervention.  I'm thanking him for the gift of life.  It's just that almost dieing can really make one realize how glad they are to be alive.

[Azdgari]

If something is responsible for the decision to provide life, is it not also true that it's responsible for the same decision not to provide life, by the same token?

[Jstwebbrowsing]

If something is responsible for the decision to provide life, is it not also true that it's responsible for the same decision not to provide life, by the same token?

Yes, the human was designed to require certain needs to be met for survival.  If these needs are not met then we die.  We also grow old and die.  I don't see a problem here.  Are you saying God should never allow us to die?

[screwtape]

This is a public forum.  You made a public post.  I questioned the post.  That is not trolling. 

Correction.  This:

Oh I see.  You'd prefer them to act more like you.  Sorry, but I don't see the appeal.  If prayer dupes them into not acting like you then maybe there is something to it afterall and they are better off in need.

...is in fact, trolling.  Cut it out.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

This is a public forum.  You made a public post.  I questioned the post.  That is not trolling. 

Correction.  This:

Oh I see.  You'd prefer them to act more like you.  Sorry, but I don't see the appeal.  If prayer dupes them into not acting like you then maybe there is something to it afterall and they are better off in need.

...is in fact, trolling.  Cut it out.

No, that was a response to a personal attack just like what you're doing now.  But I will cut it out and leave and let you all go back to your mindless bashing of people different than you.  Far be it from me to challenge your "critical thinking".

[Azdgari]

If something is responsible for the decision to provide life, is it not also true that it's responsible for the same decision not to provide life, by the same token?

Yes, the human was designed to require certain needs to be met for survival.  If these needs are not met then we die.  We also grow old and die.  I don't see a problem here.  Are you saying God should never allow us to die?

Not what I'm talking about.  Humans are what we are, for whatever reason.  Now, after this point, people still give credit to "God" for stuff happening that saves lives.  Do you agree with this behaviour?

[screwtape]

No, that was a response to a personal attack just like what you're doing now.  But I will cut it out and leave and let you all go back to your mindless bashing of people different than you.  Far be it from me to challenge your "critical thinking".

The green text indicates a moderator is addressing you.  If you have a problem with the moderator's determination you may bring it up by PM.  Not in thread. 

[Jstwebbrowsing]

No, that was a response to a personal attack just like what you're doing now.  But I will cut it out and leave and let you all go back to your mindless bashing of people different than you.  Far be it from me to challenge your "critical thinking".

The green text indicates a moderator is addressing you.  If you have a problem with the moderator's determination you may bring it up by PM.  Not in thread. 

Are you saying my ability to defend myself must be censored?  What's the next step in Marxist theory after that?

[carstensenscott]

Yeah this is the mean streets of WWGHA....better run and hide. WT2.

We atheists are soooooooooooooo bigoted. Crap. And since when are xstians persecuted. What dimension are you floating in. We are not here bashing and picking fights. I would love to know the percentage of members here that go to xstian sites and ....what.. yah we know we would be barking up the wrong tree. And I dont have time for that shit. My poor wife has cancer. Her breasts are being removed on Thursday. My dad said of his wife having cancer that it was a "win win" whether she died or lived. If she died she would be home with her "father". None of the rhetoric you pose makes any glob damn sense. NONE.

Sorry bout the rant.

[12 Monkeys]

 JST I was suggesting that is easy for someone like you to keep faith,because nothing as traumatic as starving to death will EVER happen to you. Try giving up your job and home .....like Jesus told you to,see where you are in six months

 So you don't give credit to God or neither do you blame God when prayer does or does not work....why pray? Where are Christians starving? IF God answers your prayers as you have stated,why does he ignore others? How can you tell the difference?

 Where in the world is there an Atheist Marxist Government anymore.....even China has moved to open trade and free market. Places that are still Marxist,have 39 cent a gallon gas and healthcare for its citizens.......with the oil money they take in,they are not Governments of corporate greed like the USA

[Anfauglir]

The green text indicates a moderator is addressing you.  If you have a problem with the moderator's determination you may bring it up by PM.  Not in thread. 

Are you saying my ability to defend myself must be censored?  What's the next step in Marxist theory after that?

No.  We are saying that you will follow the rules of the forum if you wish to use the forum.  One of those rules is that you do not debate moderator actions or rulings in-thread, as screwtape told you.  I'll repeat: If you have a problem with the moderator's determination you may bring it up by PM.  Not in thread.

[DumpsterFire]

It's incredibly frutrating to me for an atheist to say, "If there's a God then goddidit" and refuse to acknowledge the real problem.

I have no idea what you are getting at here. Atheists don't believe in gods, therefore we don't say "goddidit" about anything except in jest or to illustrate an example to make a point. What exactly do you consider to be "the real problem"?

This earth is capable of producing more than enough food.  It seems to me you are asking why Jehovah doesn't just destroy greedy people or why he doesn't force humans to be obedient to him.  Is this what you're asking?

No, I'm asking why your all-powerful, all-loving god allows innocent children to suffer and starve to death. If you believe that there exists an omnimax god then you have to acknowledge (if you're being intellectually honest) that he is responsible for everything that happens, either through action or inaction. So the answer is yes, if your god actually exists, and he truly has good intentions, I would expect him to not allow innocent children to suffer. This is no small distinction. The fact that babies fresh out of the womb do suffer and die before they are even capable of sin is proof that an all-loving, all-powerful god does not exist. The only way believers have to rationalize this fact is the notion of "original sin", or that because it is man's nature to sin (hmm, seems like a design flaw there) even babies are subject to punishment. This is utter hogwash!

To me it seems you are saying, "If God exists then he should do X about Y."  And because he doesn't do what you think he should do, therefore he does not exist.  This is a logical contradiction.

No, the logical contradiction presents itself when god is assigned the attributes "omnipotent", "omniscient", and "benevolent". The realities of this world logically contradict such notions.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Yeah this is the mean streets of WWGHA....better run and hide. WT2.

We atheists are soooooooooooooo bigoted. Crap. And since when are xstians persecuted. What dimension are you floating in. We are not here bashing and picking fights. I would love to know the percentage of members here that go to xstian sites and ....what.. yah we know we would be barking up the wrong tree. And I dont have time for that shit. My poor wife has cancer. Her breasts are being removed on Thursday. My dad said of his wife having cancer that it was a "win win" whether she died or lived. If she died she would be home with her "father". None of the rhetoric you pose makes any glob damn sense. NONE.

Sorry bout the rant.

I wasn't trying to shove any rhetoric down your throat.  All I did was ask you questions to get you to reveal more of the problem as you have just now done.  Any mention of "rhetoric" was in answer to others that directly asked me questions, but not to you.  Now that you have I can partly understand your anger.

JST I was suggesting that is easy for someone like you to keep faith,because nothing as traumatic as starving to death will EVER happen to you. Try giving up your job and home .....like Jesus told you to,see where you are in six months

I have been jobless and homeless before.  The gov't wouldn't let me live in tents as the apostles did.  But I can appreciate the point.  My faith has never been tested to the extent of some others.  But that does not mean I would not maintain it as other have that have had their faith tested even to martrydom.

So you don't give credit to God or neither do you blame God when prayer does or does not work....why pray? Where are Christians starving? IF God answers your prayers as you have stated,why does he ignore others? How can you tell the difference?

Christians are starving the same as anyone else is starving since they make up roughly 1/3 of the world's population.  But the basic answer to your question is that mankind in general is very much like the Prodigal Son.  The father did not chase down his son and follow him around protecting him while he was out squandering his inheritance in disobediance.  Neither is Jehovah going to do that for mankind.  Christians understand that they too will suffer while in this system because of mankind's disobediance.  If mankind obeyed then noone would be starving.  That's what I'm trying to get you to see.

Where in the world is there an Atheist Marxist Government anymore.....even China has moved to open trade and free market. Places that are still Marxist,have 39 cent a gallon gas and healthcare for its citizens.......with the oil money they take in,they are not Governments of corporate greed like the USA

Maybe we should all move to China and have forced abortions then?  And you mention corporate greed like it's a bad thing.  That's my entire point. 

[12 Monkeys]

Corporate greed is not a bad thing......but it should not be what controls a Government. Do you think there should be lobbyists influencing the people in Government who make decisions? Tax breaks and Government welfare handed out to those who can afford to "change" a politicians mind on things like environmental protection and Corporate tax rates is just plain BAD.

 I also asked where these starving Christians were,can you be specific? Telling me Christians are starving,but not where....if not specific,it is just an opinion.

 While you were jobless and homeless,how did you survive? family,stealing,begging? This is how Christ has commanded you to live,homeless and without possessions.

 As far as mankind being punished because he won't obey,God has taken care of that by killing his "son". You follow the teaching of his son you are golden,you don't,hell. God according to the stories has killed off man a few times for not obeying,it did not work so he kills himself,so he can now never get angry enough to kill everybody again.

 There is only one problem with the story of him killing himself (through Jesus) is that it failed yet again to teach man anything.  To his followers(Christians) it just meant more could take him as their God.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Corporate greed is not a bad thing

Corporate greed is what causes minimum wage earners to live in poverty.

but it should not be what controls a Government.

This just makes it worse.

I also asked where these starving Christians were,can you be specific? Telling me Christians are starving,but not where....if not specific,it is just an opinion.

"Christians were also among those believed to face starvation Sunday, September 18, after Somalia's government banned foreign aid workers and journalists from entering areas controlled by al-Shabab after members of a Turkish charity took food to famine victims in an area under the Islamist group."

http://www.bosnewslife.com/18209-somalias-starving-christians-struggle-after-beheading

Even a beheading was involved.

While you were jobless and homeless,how did you survive? family,stealing,begging? This is how Christ has commanded you to live,homeless and without possessions.

Family.  And no that's not what the Bible teaches.  It teaches, "But if any provideth not for his own, and specially his own household, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever." (1 Tim 5:  If you want to take a teaching out of context from the rest of the Bible then go ahead.  I do not.

As far as mankind being punished because he won't obey,God has taken care of that by killing his "son". You follow the teaching of his son you are golden,you don't,hell. God according to the stories has killed off man a few times for not obeying,it did not work so he kills himself,so he can now never get angry enough to kill everybody again.

The father in the story did not go out and punish his son.  The son suffered by reaping what he had sown.  So is mankind.  The fact that Jehovah has killed men in the past has no bearing on the general condition of the world.  Jehovah has done only what is required for the outworking of his purposes. 

There is only one problem with the story of him killing himself (through Jesus) is that it failed yet again to teach man anything.  To his followers(Christians) it just meant more could take him as their God.

No.  Only some have failed to learn.  Mankind will never succeed until they obey the command to "love your neighbor as yourself".  Eventually, those that refuse to do so will be removed and the world will be a better place.

[carstensenscott]

Wow again. This just solidifies it. The fact that there was a tornado and she wasn't touched. "thank god". No clue how it sounds from the outside. Is why it is upsetting.

"Bluebirds, robins and lotsa noisy birds chattering away in the yard. Haven't seen bluebirds and robins since I left Ohio!! Temperature here the same as Oceanside - nippy but today we're clear. Tornado yesterday a few miles from here. Took the roof off a mobile home. I hardly noticed! Snug and warm in front of the fire! God is good!!"

[Jstwebbrowsing]

So who do I blame?  God?  Or the ones that killed the man God sent that could calm a storm?  Or the man that was kicked out of the paradise of Eden?  Or all the other people that are anti God?  God has done his part.

[carstensenscott]

Why does one have to find blame. Yes it would make me feel so much better at times to reach up my fist, middle finger erect, and curse the glob in the sky for afflicting my wife. But that just has no value add for me. Nor would it make a lick of sense. Because then I would be in the ever rolling conundrum of "why did glob let this happen to my wife, to test her faith? why did glob let these rampant cells go about unchecked in this so thoughtfully contrived and beautiful creation?"

Non-sense. Fin.

[carstensenscott]

Ok. And there is this too. Just sounds like beating the head on the wall.

"As I read through the posts it appears quite a few people had trouble sleeping last night. I was still awake at 2:30 thinking, "Lord, please let me sleep! I just want to fall asleep!" It finally happened but I've been tired all day. I'll try going to bed early tonight and see what happens."

Lets just ask the lord for everything. I once saw a prayer list on my dads fridge in which one of the requests was from a fellow asking for "better fashion sense". This went through the church's staff and was found worthy for printing on the prayer list which it then circulates. Just crap.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Why does one have to find blame. Yes it would make me feel so much better at times to reach up my fist, middle finger erect, and curse the glob in the sky for afflicting my wife. But that just has no value add for me. Nor would it make a lick of sense. Because then I would be in the ever rolling conundrum of "why did glob let this happen to my wife, to test her faith? why did glob let these rampant cells go about unchecked in this so thoughtfully contrived and beautiful creation?"

Non-sense. Fin.

There is no conundrum.  We all get sick, grow old, and die.  God would not give your wife cancer to test her faith.  Your wife has cancer for the same reason we all get sick, grow old, and die.  It is not because of divine intervention.  It's because of a lack of divine intervention.  Why is there no divine intervention?  Because mankind will not accept divine guidance.  But it is fortold that this situation will not continue indefinately. 

I truly empathize with your situation.  I know there is nothing I can say to make things easier or better.  Not as close as a wife, but I lost my mother a few years back to heart disease and my wife just lost her mother a year ago to the same thing.  All I can say is that if Jehovah is real, he has promised to rectify the situation and even to resurrect the dead, both good and bad.

But for the present it's hard for me to imagine what you're going through right now, or the rest of your family.  If you don't want to hear "preaching" then I certainly can respect that and I think you have every right to be angry.  If I may ask, is she expected to fully recover afterward?   

[carstensenscott]

You said "if jehovah is real"..... I like it. Come to the bright side. You can do it.

[Graybeard]

Yes prayer works for me but no I do not give credit like that.  This is my general outlook, "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."  (Ecc 9:11)

You know, I often wonder how Ecclesiastes ever made the cut at Nicaea. It is more a humanist tract by an author who was generally pissed off with idiots who did not understand what the world was really like.

Just because someone says "goddidit" does not make it so.  Ecc 9:11 above shows that everything "good" or "bad" that happens is not because of divine intervention. The Bible says that every "good and perfect gift" comes down from heaven but not that everything that happens is because of the expression of divine will.

This is simply not so. I don’t know whether you just invented an answer or that you think this might be true. The fact of the matter is that the Bible assures us that God is sovereign and all-powerful, and nothing happens that is outside of His control. No matter where we are or what we're doing, God's presence still surrounds us.

"If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there" (Psalm 139:.

Then we have so-called Christians who think that Satan does the bad things or encourages man to do them. However, we must never, ever forget that God created Satan and let him loose upon the earth.

God knew what he was doing. He knew what would happen, but he did it nevertheless. He could, of course, destroy Satan… but He does not.

Imagine yourself in court – your answer to the charge of murder is, “I didn’t do it, I hired a hit-man and he did it – you can’t convict me…”

How much notice would the jury take of that?

Do you think, for one moment that a Supreme Being who wiped men women and children off the planet with a flood would be bothered about a car crash in Detroit that left a few people crippled? If you do, you are living in cloud-cuckoo land. He does that to teach someone a lesson.

Let’s not mince our words – God’s mercy is pretty severe.

So, let me hear you agree – God did it! Yes, everything! Yes – blind children, brain injured women, men crippled with disease – nations embroiled in war - horrible accidents - a sparrow dying - He did it all – and there is no getting away from it.

That is Yahweh – The God of Thunder and War.

But I can hear you thinking, “There must be some verses that I can quote to show he is not like this?"

No, there aren’t and then we have:

Joh:9:1: And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh:9:2: And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh:9:3: Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

(See also Romans:9, in which the same theory of God making himself look good by exercising curses and destining people to hell for no particular reason.)

Deut. 32:39: See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.

2 Chron. 15:13: That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Jer:18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Lamentations:2:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

Num:31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Zechariah 14:1-2 ….Behold , the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the
midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity…”


You are a "fluffy-bunny" Christian - "God loves us all" Well, read a Bible and you'll find He simply does not! Those He loves are few and far between and I'll offer you 50:1 that you are not in that number.

[12 Monkeys]

So who do I blame?  God?  Or the ones that killed the man God sent that could calm a storm?  Or the man that was kicked out of the paradise of Eden?  Or all the other people that are anti God?  God has done his part.

AHHHH but none of God's plans could be  successful without the failures he depended on for the plan to work. The flood maybe an exception..... but without failure in the Garden and his "son" where would God be now?

[12 Monkeys]

I think you misread JST

 I said corporate lobbyist should not have influence over government.......EVER,Government could set a living wage,but they don't,have stricter environmental standards,set prices on essential needs like gasoline,but fail. Lobbyist influence those who make decisions,they should be regulated or outlawed.

 If i sell a product that people want for the highest price i can get,free market,when I collude with others selling a product everyone needs to keep the price high...it should have regulation.