Author Topic: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH  (Read 6701 times)

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #116 on: February 27, 2013, 07:29:10 PM »
Suffering and dying are 2 separate things I see. You suffer some but do not starve,you in your world stay relatively safe,so a little suffering is ok. Where the one who TRULY needs God finds nothing. Seems fair.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #117 on: February 27, 2013, 07:45:36 PM »
Suffering and dying are 2 separate things I see. You suffer some but do not starve,you in your world stay relatively safe,so a little suffering is ok. Where the one who TRULY needs God finds nothing. Seems fair.

Jehovah only offers one solution to these problems.  That offer is his kingdom that will take over rulership of this earth.  Until then he is with us and comforts us but does not stop us from suffering, nor did he promise he would.  Instead of saying Christians would be spared from suffering Jesus said.

"These things have I spoken unto you, that in me ye may have peace. In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)

The fact of the matter is that some of the holiest people ever are those that suffer the greatest.  Why don't you ask someone that is starving why they maintain their integrity to Jehovah and maybe you will understand Christianity.  Whether or not I suffer has no bearing on whether or not Jehovah exists and deserves my worship.  I guess I could pretend to be atheist but what good would that do?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #118 on: February 27, 2013, 07:47:41 PM »
Can you point me to just ONE starving Jehovah's witness please?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #119 on: February 27, 2013, 08:05:20 PM »
Can you point me to just ONE starving Jehovah's witness please?

I can only actually assume some exist in countries where their worship is banned.  Unless somehow prevented they takes seriously the teaching to take care of each other.  They don't let their members starve, neither spiritually nor physically.  But there are many countries where their woship is banned so I imagine some of them have it pretty rough.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #120 on: February 27, 2013, 08:07:53 PM »
And before you ask....

"Throughout Jehovah's Witnesses' history, their beliefs, doctrines and practices have engendered controversy and opposition from local governments, communities, and religious groups."

Political and religious animosity against Jehovah's Witnesses has at times led to mob action and government oppression in various countries, including Cuba, the United States, Canada, Singapore and Nazi Germany. The religion's doctrine of political neutrality has led to imprisonment of members who refused conscription (for example in Britain during World War II and afterwards during the period of compulsory national service).
 
During the World Wars, Jehovah's Witnesses were targeted in the United States, Canada and many other countries for their refusal to serve in the military or help with war efforts. In Canada, Jehovah's Witnesses were interned in camps[2] along with political dissidents and people of Japanese and Chinese descent. Activities of Jehovah's Witnesses have previously been banned in the Soviet Union and in Spain, partly due to their refusal to perform military service. Their religious activities are currently banned or restricted in some countries, for example in Singapore, China, Vietnam, and many Islamic states.
 
According to the journal, Social Compass, "Viewed globally, this persecution has been so persistent and of such an intensity that it would not be inaccurate to regard Jehovah's witnesses as the most persecuted religion of the twentieth century"

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #121 on: February 27, 2013, 08:31:32 PM »
When they KILL 60 million of you ,then we can talk about how bad you have it. The native population of Canada and USA would be the most persecuted .....if they had not been exterminated.... then there are the Jews and the Nazi's....... your little cult does not even come close to the most persecuted in history
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #122 on: February 27, 2013, 08:33:47 PM »
60 million people have never been killed for failing to denounce their faith.  Well there might have been, but not all at once.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #123 on: February 27, 2013, 08:41:15 PM »
Can you point me to just ONE starving Jehovah's witness please?

Gotta stand up and represent here.[1]

As a card-carrying member of the Jehovah's Witness Protection Program, I have to say that JW's have suffered their share of persecution. (I am not talking about the time we were house-to-housing and the man sic-ed his dog on us, or the times in school other kids teased us for not saying the Pledge of Allegiance, or the time our house got egged at Halloween for not giving out candy, either.)

Since JW's don't submit to political authority, they have been mistreated, tortured and imprisoned by every police state since Stalin and every dictator since Hitler. We were given lists of countries where JW people were held as political prisoners, being starved and beaten to recant their faith,  so we could pray for them to stay strong. This was back in the 1960's and 70's, way before Amnesty International was popular. It was my first introduction to global human rights issues.

This is not to say that, because they are persecuted or even killed over it, that makes their faith true. Lots of people suffer and die for beliefs and causes that are not true, like the Hale-bopp comet cult and the Jim Jones thing in Guyana. Jews suffered and died for many generations in Europe well before the 20th century. Doesn't mean that the Jewish faith is correct, either. So being willing to suffer is not sufficient evidence for a real god. But JW's are willing to stand up for their beliefs, even looking for opportunities to suffer for the faith-- so they can show their pure love for Jehovah, just like Job. 

We don't need to have a contest over who suffered more, Doce and Jst. The pagans and indigenous peoples of the world whose cultures were destroyed and populations enslaved win that hands down. It was not all at once, Jst, but only because the technology did not exist for that level of mass killing. If the Europeans had possessed nuclear weapons in the 1500's I am pretty sure they would have used them on the native people of the world.

As it was, they had to make do with starvation, disease and massacres. In some regions of the Americas, 90% of the people were killed in less than a hundred years. As one Native American history writer put it, the silence of the tribes that are gone is the most eloquent of all testimonies.  :'(
 1. I am native and black and former JW, so I'll cover all the bases!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 08:47:30 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #124 on: February 27, 2013, 08:41:47 PM »
60 million people have never been killed for failing to denounce their faith.  Well there might have been, but not all at once.

They were killed because they got in the way and religion was used as the excuse. I can give you and example in about 1760 the Haida were about 10-12000 strong by 1862 90% of our population was gone. Canadian and Americans Governments used religion as the excuse. Greed was the real reason,we ate their food and used their resources.

 Those of us they did not kill were put on reservations and in residential schools (religious residential schools) with our religious beliefs all but gone,through Government and religious leaders actions.
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Offline carstensenscott

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #125 on: February 27, 2013, 08:45:18 PM »
I can only actually assume some exist in countries where their worship is banned.  Unless somehow prevented they takes seriously the teaching to take care of each otherThey don't let their members starve, neither spiritually nor physically.  But there are many countries where their woship is banned so I imagine some of them have it pretty rough.

Such solid conviction.

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #126 on: February 27, 2013, 08:53:08 PM »
60 million people have never been killed for failing to denounce their faith.  Well there might have been, but not all at once.

They were killed because they got in the way and religion was used as the excuse. I can give you and example in about 1760 the Haida were about 10-12000 strong by 1862 90% of our population was gone. Canadian and Americans Governments used religion as the excuse. Greed was the real reason,we ate their food and used their resources.

 Those of us they did not kill were put on reservations and in residential schools (religious residential schools) with our religious beliefs all but gone,through Government and religious leaders actions.

All I'm saying is that there are Christians that maintain the love of Jehovah through all sorts of suffering.  If you don't want to take my word for anything then track down one of them and talk to them about why they do it.  For some reason, they must not blame God for their suffering.  So there is another way of looking at things.  A way that people have even died for.  I am a mole compared to what they go through while maintaining integrity.

Quote from: nogodsforme
Since JW's don't submit to political authority.......

I think this needs clarification.  They don't submit to political authority if they feel doing so causes them to sin, as in the case of participating in war.  I didn't post what Hitler did to German Witnesses that refused to join the military.  I imagine he said, "bless their hearts" and sent them on their merry way.

There are interviews with Witnesses that survived the German concentration camps on Youtube I believe, if you'd like to hear their testimony. 

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #127 on: February 27, 2013, 09:00:18 PM »
^^^Yes-- I should have been more specific, but my posts are too long as it is.

I would imagine JW's getting flack after 9/11 for not participating in community blood drives, not because they liked people dying in terrorist attacks, but because they don't do the blood thing. Not for anybody.

JW's do not submit to political authority in ways that go against their religious principles. Like pledging allegiance to flags or serving in the military in combat units or giving the Nazi salute and saying "heil Hitler". I lived in an African dictatorship and stood respectfully like everyone else when the dictator passed by. I would not be brave enough to face a prison in that country. But there are people, including JW's, who are that brave.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 09:02:12 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #128 on: February 28, 2013, 01:06:39 AM »
Quote from: DumpsterFire
Why, the good ol' US of A, of course, which is why I referenced "states" in my post. Figured you'd be sharp enough to catch that. As the nation most stricken with xtianity (not to mention the land in which you reside), I would hope that you would consider our laws to be superior.

Not as good as the creator's.  I don't think any human has the right to take the life of another without divine approval and he's not going to be taking any lives until the war of Armageddon, and humans aren't even going to be executing that judgment for him.  So no human has the right to take the life of another.  And you do realize the creators of the consitution you seem to value so much was created by believers?  Does that mean they are not all bad?

So you're saying, essentially, that god can arbitrarily decide to kill every living thing on earth (this number inevitably included scores of innocent, sinless babies and animals), sparing only the few on board the ark, and not only should we have no problem with it, we should consider him good, right, and just for doing it. Under this view, any action taken by god, no matter how heinous, must be good because, well, he's god. The doctrine of Might Makes Right.

Also, unless you have me confused with someone else your comment about the Constitution is nothing but a red herring. You asked for evidence that god had killed people who did not deserve to be put to death and I provided it, based on the laws of capital punishment in the US. The Constitution had nothing to do with it.

Quote
Read the book of Job and replace Job with Adam and Eve and you will know why Satan was allowed to make the serpent speak.  The ultimate question of their perfection, and mankind's integrity as a whole, is the question of the purity of their love for Jehovah.  The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was an opportunity for them to demonstrate the purity of their love for Jehovah.  In order to be perfect they must have perfect love.  There HAD to be a way to demonstrate that their love was not from selfish motives.

The amount of scriptural gymnastics necessary to try and explain why god allowed the serpent into the GoE is truly astounding, but it ignores the underlying inconsistency of the situation: Why would an omniscient being ever require proof of anything? He already knows everything, so any "testing" he may do is superfluous.

No amount of scripture mining and rationalization can overcome this basic logical contradiction.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #129 on: February 28, 2013, 02:04:27 AM »
The covenant, "blessing", was transferred from father to son on several occasions in the OT as a reconfirmation, that is the covenant for a kingdom.

There was never any blessing. Judah was held captive the whole of genuine biblical history (600BC+), and their kings were turfed out.

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The covenant was they would live under a theocratic rulership.  This was not forced upon them.  Jehovah let them reject it just as he let them reject his chosen king.  He just gave it to someone else that did want to live under it.

The priests didn't rule; they would have been subject to the laws of their captors. The captors let the priests keep religious control, due to negligence.

Quote
Quote from: Add Homonym
How do you know? Do you have the complete set of God recordings on CD?
Yes, it's called the Bible.  It has everything we need to know (2 Tim 3:16,17)

That quote does not say that the scriptures are complete, but most likely refers to older Jewish scripture, inc. the esoteric 1 Enoch. If you genuinely believe that "Paul" would write to Timothy, saying that any scripture that any cult put together, without him even seeing it, in the future, is always correct, then you have a few rocks flying loose in your head. Paul never saw Matthew, and Matthew 5:19 condemns Paul.   Paul would have certainly known of 1 Enoch, and thought it was genuine.

Even if you can contort into believing that all scripture written after that Tim quote is valid, it still does not say that the scriptures are complete.

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Quote from: Add Homonym
Luke 16:31 says

[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

First tell me how someone can rise from the dead if they are not dead.  And if they are dead, how can they be alive?  And then tell me the definition of the Hebrew word for hell.  Then I will show you what the Bible says about the condition of the dead.  Then you will begin to understand why that is an illustration.

Read this, and you will see that it's not an illustration, but consistent with what Jews believed at the time.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe025.htm

If you want to get rid of hell/hades, then by all means tell me that Luke was an idiot. But to pretend that it's not written in the NT, makes you look like a Seventh Day Adventist, or worse: you have the obtuseness of a Catholic.

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Those are guiding principles not straight jacket rules like the Jews treated the Jewish law.  You cannot take it out of the context of the rest of the Bible.  What is the teaching about leaving one's parents?  What are the teachings for providing for you family?

I am well aware that there are two version of Christianity: one by Paul, and one by Matthew. The strict Matthean version was unsuitable to gentiles, so Paul made another one. Then the Mattheans condemned Paul, saying "

[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?


We know Paul was  false prophet, because the fruit was the Catholic church.

[22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

I can't find Luke warning of Paul being a false Christ. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough :-) It seems very strange to me that Matthew was written way after Paul, yet fails to mention that Paul should be excluded from this warning. It seems like the writer of the sermon on the mount is trying to tell me something. What is it?

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  What does the Bible teach leads to poverty?  What does the Bible teach about taking care of orphans and widows?  What does the Bible teach about greed?  Who does the Bible teach that money belongs to?  Which is more important, money or taking care of orphans and widows?  Calling it communist does little to cover up the immorality and blood guilt of using money as an excuse to deny people the basic necessities of life.  If I have money and let my brother starve then I have disowned my faith and am worse off than an unbeliever.  (1 Tim 5:8)

This is all a bit irrelevant to my original observation that you have no evidence that following God's law brings about some economic nirvana that is exempt from the thistles and thorns that were allegedly cast upon Adam.
Quote
Did Adam and Eve have to fight for their own food?  If was after they left the garden that Jehovah told them, "thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;  In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return to the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and to dust shall you return." (Gen 3:19)

You seem to be quite skilled at missing points, which is why you have kept your faith for so long.
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Offline carstensenscott

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #130 on: February 28, 2013, 02:44:07 AM »
Jst....

Guess this makes it a little easier for you and your flavor of veil.

"However, in a number of ways, we are different from other religious groups that are called Christian. For example, we believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, not part of a Trinity. (Mark 12:29) We do not believe that the soul is immortal, that there is any basis in Scripture for saying that God tortures people in an everlasting hell, or that those who take the lead in religious activities should have titles that elevate them above others.—Ecclesiastes 9:5; Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 23:8-10."

http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/are-jehovahs-witnesses-christians/

The belief that "souls" do not exist forever. Maybe just six or seven lifetimes? There must be some afterlife torture involved.
Meanwhile you winning the "Proper Brand" of religion chill out in your peaceful existence which follows.

Because all of those poor afflicted souls wont be tortured after you and your conscious are gone.



edit - changed color to something visible.  ~Screwtape
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 08:46:32 PM by screwtape »

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #131 on: February 28, 2013, 04:47:25 AM »
Question.  If the serpent had NOT been allowed into Eden by Yahweh, would A&E have eaten the fruit?

Read the book of Job and replace Job with Adam and Eve and you will know why Satan was allowed to make the serpent speak.  The ultimate question of their perfection, and mankind's integrity as a whole, is the question of the purity of their love for Jehovah.  The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was an opportunity for them to demonstrate the purity of their love for Jehovah.  In order to be perfect they must have perfect love.  There HAD to be a way to demonstrate that their love was not from selfish motives.

Satan charged that Job only loved God because of selfish reasons.  Job proved Satan a liar under much worse conditions, and so did Jesus Christ.  Adam and Eve did not.  Their love for Jehovah was not pure, hence adding evidence to the charge that God's creation was defective.  However, Jesus Christ ultimately proved that their failure was not through a creative defect.  They were capable of that same pure love and so are each of us.  Satan is, therefore, a liar and he is defeated.

That's a lot of words to avoid answering my simple question: If the serpent had NOT been allowed into Eden by Yahweh, would A&E have eaten the fruit? 

"(was) their love .... from selfish motives"  Where did their motives come from?  Who created them?
"Their love for Jehovah was not pure"  Why not?  Who created them?  Who created love?
"Jesus Christ ultimately proved...."  Really?  Can you point me at the scripture detailing Christ's interactions with Adam and Eve, because I don't recall it.

It comes down to this, Jst.  According to you, Adam and Eve were created by Yahweh.  He chose EVERYTHING about them.  He set up EVERY variable, EVERY aspect of the Environment.  Every desire, every feeling, every thought A&E had was either put in them by Yahweh at their creation, or came to them as the result of something that happened to them from some OTHER aspect of Yahweh's creation.

But Yahweh created everything.  Everything that is, is so because of how he set it all up, is that not so?  And if that is the case, then he bears the responsibility for what happens.

I'd be most grateful if you would actually address this point.



<<edit: changed a typo>>
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:56:20 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #132 on: February 28, 2013, 04:55:13 AM »
Love MUST be shown or it is dead love.

Obviously you've had a very easy life.  I think that must be why you don't believe in God.

All I'm saying is that there are Christians that maintain the love of Jehovah through all sorts of suffering.  If you don't want to take my word for anything then track down one of them and talk to them about why they do it.

Some very interesting points there, Jst.  Perhaps you would like to look at the thread My Christian Family and tell me how they apply there?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #133 on: February 28, 2013, 09:08:08 AM »
I lived in an African dictatorship

Which one?  And when?
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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #134 on: February 28, 2013, 11:16:49 AM »
^^^Yes-- I should have been more specific, but my posts are too long as it is.

I would imagine JW's getting flack after 9/11 for not participating in community blood drives, not because they liked people dying in terrorist attacks, but because they don't do the blood thing. Not for anybody.

JW's do not submit to political authority in ways that go against their religious principles. Like pledging allegiance to flags or serving in the military in combat units or giving the Nazi salute and saying "heil Hitler". I lived in an African dictatorship and stood respectfully like everyone else when the dictator passed by. I would not be brave enough to face a prison in that country. But there are people, including JW's, who are that brave.
Indians that stood up to Government were just killed,those who did submit to Government had their territory taken and were put on reservations....... I have yet to see any other group (other than internment and concentration camps in WW2) who have been put on reservations,land stolen and forced to "civilization schools". We Aboriginals are still viewed as Wards of the state.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #135 on: February 28, 2013, 04:24:17 PM »
Quote from: dumpsterfire
So you're saying, essentially, that god can arbitrarily decide to kill every living thing on earth

As I already posted, there was nothing arbitrary about it.

Quote from: dumpsterfire
Also, unless you have me confused with someone else your comment about the Constitution is nothing but a red herring. You asked for evidence that god had killed people who did not deserve to be put to death and I provided it, based on the laws of capital punishment in the US. The Constitution had nothing to do with it.

Yes, the Constitution has a lot to do with it.  Check the 8th amendment.  Also I asked for you to show US law was superior.  I stated I think no man has the right to take the life of another, implying God's law is superior.

Quote from: dumpsterfire
The amount of scriptural gymnastics necessary to try and explain why god allowed the serpent into the GoE is truly astounding, but it ignores the underlying inconsistency of the situation: Why would an omniscient being ever require proof of anything? He already knows everything, so any "testing" he may do is superfluous.

I already addressed this also.  Any "proof" was not for Jehovah's benefit.  It was for ours.  (1 Cor 10:11)  If Jehovah had just stated Adam's love wasn't pure and kicked him out of the garden would that make you feel better?  Also there is this, "And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him ; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him."  Adam didn't have enough faith.  (Heb 11:6)

Quote from: Add Homonym[/quote
The priests didn't rule; they would have been subject to the laws of their captors. The captors let the priests keep religious control, due to negligence.

You're right.  Their rejection of their king caused them to lose out on that promise.

Quote from: Add Homonym
That quote does not say that the scriptures are complete, but most likely refers to older Jewish scripture, inc. the esoteric 1 Enoch.

Proof required.

Quote from: Add Homonym
If you genuinely believe that "Paul" would write to Timothy, saying that any scripture that any cult put together, without him even seeing it, in the future, is always correct, then you have a few rocks flying loose in your head.

No, I believe there are fake scriptures.

Quote from: Add Homonym
Even if you can contort into believing that all scripture written after that Tim quote is valid, it still does not say that the scriptures are complete

The internal harmony and completeness of the Bible testifies to it's completeness and divine authorship.

Quote from: Add Homonym
Read this, and you will see that it's not an illustration, but consistent with what Jews believed at the time.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe025.htm

If it does not agree, as does the rest of the Bible, with what Jehovah told Adam what death would mean to him then it is not from the same author, Jehovah.

Quote from: Add Homonym
If you want to get rid of hell/hades, then by all means tell me that Luke was an idiot. But to pretend that it's not written in the NT, makes you look like a Seventh Day Adventist, or worse: you have the obtuseness of a Catholic.

The fact that people in heaven are talking to people in hell should be a big enough indication that it's an illustration, notwithstanding what the rest of the Bible says.  What part of a man goes to hell? What I read is that the "wages of sin in death", instead of torture.  I must assume you missed that part.

Quote from: Add Homonym
I am well aware that there are two version of Christianity: one by Paul, and one by Matthew. The strict Matthean version was unsuitable to gentiles, so Paul made another one. Then the Mattheans condemned Paul, saying "

[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

We know Paul was  false prophet, because the fruit was the Catholic church.

[22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

I can't find Luke warning of Paul being a false Christ. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough :-) It seems very strange to me that Matthew was written way after Paul, yet fails to mention that Paul should be excluded from this warning. It seems like the writer of the sermon on the mount is trying to tell me something. What is it?

Paul has nothing to do with Catholicism.  Paul's own words many times condemn Catholicism.  And what does Paul have anything to do with leaving your family and sticking to you wife?

Cherry pick much?  That's what Catholicism does.  Why don't you just pick a handful of scriptures and throw away the rest of the Bible.  Maybe then you can prove your point.  If that's not sufficient maybe you can add some of your own Sacred Pronouncements as does Catholicism.  Maybe then you can be right.  But don't make the same mistake as them.  You DEFINATELY need to remove the scripture that says, "by their fruits you will know them".

Quote from: Add Homonym
It seems like the writer of the sermon on the mount is trying to tell me something. What is it?

He's telling you not to believe false doctrines, such as Jehovah doesn't want us to work to provide for our family.

Quote from: Add  Homonym
This is all a bit irrelevant to my original observation that you have no evidence that following God's law brings about some economic nirvana

"Love your neighbor as yourself".  And nope I have no evidence it's works because most people don't follow it.

Can you show that following them doesn't lead to "nirvana"?  Which obediant people will we use as a case study?  I've already made this point.

Quote from:  carstensenscott
The belief that "souls" do not exist forever. Maybe just six or seven lifetimes? There must be some afterlife torture involved.
Meanwhile you winning the "Proper Brand" of religion chill out in your peaceful existence which follows.

Because all of those poor afflicted souls wont be tortured after you and your conscious are gone.

Men do not "have" souls.  Men "are" souls just like animals "are" souls.  When we die, we cease to exist.  Throughout the Bible souls die.  If you want to prove this is what the Bible teaches then create a new thread.  The Bible does not teach reincarnation.  It teaches resurrection.  It also teaches both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected.  In Revelation "hades" itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is second death.  Ever wonder how a lake of fire can be thrown into a lake of fire?  "Death" is also thrown into the Lake of Fire.  Surely there is some symbolism going on here.  Revelation does not leave us guessing.  It tells us the Lake of Fire means second death, or eternal destruction, as if by fire.

The belief in an immortal soul actually undermines the entire Christian faith since it all hinges on the resurrection of the dead.  If the dead are not dead then there is no resurrection of the dead, and then neither has Christ been resurrected.  If Christ has not been resurrected then there is no resurrection of the dead and we will all die in our sins.

If you'd like me to go more in depth and provide scriptural support for these things then I'd be happy to answer any questions if you create a new thread.

Quote from: Anfauglir
If the serpent had NOT been allowed into Eden by Yahweh, would A&E have eaten the fruit?

I don't know.  I am certain the rebellion would have occurred at least eventually.  Satan, not the serpent itself, may or may not have hurried things along.

Quote from: Anfauglir
"(was) their love .... from selfish motives"  Where did their motives come from?  Who created them?
"Their love for Jehovah was not pure"  Why not?  Who created them?  Who created love?
"Jesus Christ ultimately proved...."  Really?  Can you point me at the scripture detailing Christ's interactions with Adam and Eve, because I don't recall it.

I imagine these are some of the very same things Satan taunted Jehovah with.  And I didn't say Christ and Adam interacted.  I'm basically saying you can use them as case studies.  We've considered Adam and his failure, now let's consider Christ.  They were both created perfect humans and both relate to this universal issue.  One failed under perfect conditions.  One succeeded under terrible conditions.  What conclusions can be drawn from this about humans?

Quote from: Anfauglir
It comes down to this, Jst.  According to you, Adam and Eve were created by Yahweh.  He chose EVERYTHING about them.  He set up EVERY variable, EVERY aspect of the Environment.  Every desire, every feeling, every thought A&E had was either put in them by Yahweh at their creation, or came to them as the result of something that happened to them from some OTHER aspect of Yahweh's creation.

Really?  How did you come about this information?  Source?

Quote from: Anfauglir
But Yahweh created everything.  Everything that is, is so because of how he set it all up, is that not so?  And if that is the case, then he bears the responsibility for what happens.

I'd be most grateful if you would actually address this point.

Your point is a Straw Man.  See above.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #136 on: February 28, 2013, 04:42:16 PM »
^^^Yes-- I should have been more specific, but my posts are too long as it is.

I would imagine JW's getting flack after 9/11 for not participating in community blood drives, not because they liked people dying in terrorist attacks, but because they don't do the blood thing. Not for anybody.

JW's do not submit to political authority in ways that go against their religious principles. Like pledging allegiance to flags or serving in the military in combat units or giving the Nazi salute and saying "heil Hitler". I lived in an African dictatorship and stood respectfully like everyone else when the dictator passed by. I would not be brave enough to face a prison in that country. But there are people, including JW's, who are that brave.
Indians that stood up to Government were just killed,those who did submit to Government had their territory taken and were put on reservations....... I have yet to see any other group (other than internment and concentration camps in WW2) who have been put on reservations,land stolen and forced to "civilization schools". We Aboriginals are still viewed as Wards of the state.

JWs that have stood up to governments have died too.  Do you know why they stand up to them like that?  It's because they will choose death over doing what has been done to your people just like thousands of them chose death over following Hitler's orders to kill Jews, or anyone else.  Whatever "Christians" have carried out such atrocities have not been Jehovah's Christian Witnesses.
 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #137 on: February 28, 2013, 05:03:00 PM »
Love MUST be shown or it is dead love.

Obviously you've had a very easy life.  I think that must be why you don't believe in God.

All I'm saying is that there are Christians that maintain the love of Jehovah through all sorts of suffering.  If you don't want to take my word for anything then track down one of them and talk to them about why they do it.

Some very interesting points there, Jst.  Perhaps you would like to look at the thread My Christian Family and tell me how they apply there?

Are you asking why we grow old, get sick, and die if Jehovah is so loving?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #138 on: February 28, 2013, 05:08:54 PM »
I lived in an African dictatorship

Which one?  And when?

I lived in Congo/Zaire under Mobutu regime in the 1980's. US backed this African Hitler for 30 years while he tortured and robbed the population. Because he was not a communist. &)

google: reagan mobutu,  or nixon mobutu to see photos of our conservative presidents kissing this evil bastard's a$$

also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy_of_Mobutu_Sese_Seko
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #139 on: February 28, 2013, 05:21:20 PM »
Love MUST be shown or it is dead love.

Obviously you've had a very easy life.  I think that must be why you don't believe in God.

All I'm saying is that there are Christians that maintain the love of Jehovah through all sorts of suffering.  If you don't want to take my word for anything then track down one of them and talk to them about why they do it.

Some very interesting points there, Jst.  Perhaps you would like to look at the thread My Christian Family and tell me how they apply there?

Are you asking why we grow old, get sick, and die if Jehovah is so loving?

Well, yeah.

But more to the point, why is it that praying, believing in god, trying to follow the bible and so forth seem to make not a rat's a$$ bit of difference? And it does not matter which religion you try to follow--none of them have any positive effect, especially when compared to non-religious rational thinking and science.

I just heard about the pope's last public appearance to a massive crowd of faithful believers. He blessed and kissed several babies. I wondered what, if any, effect that blessing those babies would have? Would those babies be less likely to become orphaned, poor, to go to jail or flunk out of school when compared to babies that never got any kind of blessings?

I would submit that the life that baby will have depends far more on factors like parent's income and education, plus the economic status and level of social welfare available in the country that baby grows up in. Prayers and blessings and magic charms mean nothing in comparison.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #140 on: February 28, 2013, 06:50:26 PM »
Love MUST be shown or it is dead love.

Obviously you've had a very easy life.  I think that must be why you don't believe in God.

All I'm saying is that there are Christians that maintain the love of Jehovah through all sorts of suffering.  If you don't want to take my word for anything then track down one of them and talk to them about why they do it.

Some very interesting points there, Jst.  Perhaps you would like to look at the thread My Christian Family and tell me how they apply there?

Are you asking why we grow old, get sick, and die if Jehovah is so loving?

Well, yeah.

But more to the point, why is it that praying, believing in god, trying to follow the bible and so forth seem to make not a rat's a$$ bit of difference? And it does not matter which religion you try to follow--none of them have any positive effect, especially when compared to non-religious rational thinking and science.

I just heard about the pope's last public appearance to a massive crowd of faithful believers. He blessed and kissed several babies. I wondered what, if any, effect that blessing those babies would have? Would those babies be less likely to become orphaned, poor, to go to jail or flunk out of school when compared to babies that never got any kind of blessings?

I would submit that the life that baby will have depends far more on factors like parent's income and education, plus the economic status and level of social welfare available in the country that baby grows up in. Prayers and blessings and magic charms mean nothing in comparison.

Since you were a Witness you already know my answer about the Pope.  As for the rest, what did our Lord teach us to pray for?  And which part of that prayer addresses human suffering?  Do you not already know why there is so much suffering, or at least what my answer will be?  Don't make me recount to you what you know the Bible already says in these matters unless you really can't remember.

You also know that things will continue like this until it becomes near fatal for mankind.

As far as prochecy is concerned, you can't tell me you don't see the Beast turning upon the Harlot, preparing to leave her devastated and naked.  She is already naked.  Her sins are being made known to the entire world almost daily.  Her judgment will be completed.  Even you yourself are trying to destroy her.  Take comfort in the fact that propohecy says you will succeed.  Her waters are drying up as we speak as any atheist will gladly point out.  But what then Nogodsforme?  Will not the next thing also take place?

I cannot for the life of me understand how a Jehovah's Witness could become an atheist.  I mean I just don't know how much more evidence you need in the light of all the prophecies that are undergoing fulfillment.  I mean, it takes almost everything I have not to say you are only pretending to be atheist.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #141 on: February 28, 2013, 08:27:18 PM »
 Just as it is laughable to us that you are so deep in the garbage you have been brought up in you can't possibly be an Atheist either.

There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Tonus

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #142 on: February 28, 2013, 09:44:53 PM »
Quote
I cannot for the life of me understand how a Jehovah's Witness could become an atheist.  I mean I just don't know how much more evidence you need in the light of all the prophecies that are undergoing fulfillment.
I'd have thought the same when I was an active JW.  The Watchtower organization is (or was; does your presence here indicate a change in policy?) quite strict about where its members get their information, and equally strict about what sources of information or discussion they should avoid.  With only the WT organization as a source of information and religious teaching, I wound up with a very narrow and carefully crafted understanding of Christianity and of the Bible.

But even with such a limited source for information and belief, there were questions that I just couldn't answer to my satisfaction with a WT-provided religious education.  I did not trust others in the organization to be able to answer them, and knew that asking those questions raised the risk of having them single me out as a potential 'problem member'.  Telling myself that all I needed to do was wait until I reached the New System to ask god to clear those questions up was equally unsatisfying.  It felt like a copout.  At some point, I got tired of trying to fit square pegs into round holes and it decimated my faith.

Even so, I tried to cling to the belief system, but to no avail.  It took quite a long time before I accepted that I didn't believe in god.  Only after that did I read Ray Franz' books, which give the impression that the WT was run by a group of men who were sincere, if a bit misled.  Later I read pages like this one and came away with a very different (and decidedly more sinister) view of the organization.  Further reading confirmed that view.  So I moved on.  When I stopped searching for god, I found myself.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #143 on: March 01, 2013, 07:47:13 AM »
Quote from: Anfauglir
It comes down to this, Jst.  According to you, Adam and Eve were created by Yahweh.  He chose EVERYTHING about them.  He set up EVERY variable, EVERY aspect of the Environment.  Every desire, every feeling, every thought A&E had was either put in them by Yahweh at their creation, or came to them as the result of something that happened to them from some OTHER aspect of Yahweh's creation.

Really?  How did you come about this information?  Source?

Quote from: Anfauglir
But Yahweh created everything.  Everything that is, is so because of how he set it all up, is that not so?  And if that is the case, then he bears the responsibility for what happens.

I'd be most grateful if you would actually address this point.

Your point is a Straw Man.  See above.

Fascinating.  I was under the impression that Yahweh created everything, at least in the beginning.  So I'd supposed he created Adam, Eve, the serpent, and Eden, for definite.

You're telling me that's NOT the case, which is interesting.  Can you let me know what there is that exists/existed that Yahweh did NOT create, please?  If the information on which I base my conclusions is false, I'd be happy to be corrected.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Xtian parents/step....AHHHHHHHHHHH
« Reply #144 on: March 01, 2013, 11:11:35 AM »
Eve was just an afterthought from God,a companion he created for Adam. Maybe God was not as careful,after all he was sick and tired of Adam rejecting animals as mates and quickly and carelessly threw Eve together.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)