Author Topic: Noah  (Read 4561 times)

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Offline Andy S.

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Re: Noah
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2013, 05:51:51 PM »
You mean Noah got all those animals together in 7 days?  Man, talk about multi tasking.

I found something interesting concerning this topic.  I came across the Ancient Book of "Jasher" referenced in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18.  Concerning how the animals were gathered:

"The LORD said to Noah, go thou with thy household into the ark; behold I will gather to thee all the animals of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and they shall all come and surround the ark.  And thou shalt go and seat thyself by the doors of the ark, and all the beasts, the animals, and the fowls, shall assemble and place themselves before thee,  and such of them as shall come and crouch before thee, shalt thou take and deliver into the hands of thy sons, who shall bring them to the ark and all that will stand before thee thou shalt leave.  And the LORD brought this about on the next day, and animals, beasts and fowls came in great multitudes and surrounded the ark.  And Noah went and seated himself by the door of the ark, and of all flesh that crouched before him, he brought into the ark, and all that stood before him he left upon earth."

I find this extremely interesting.  It's too bad the Christians and Jews don't find this book to be divinely inspired because this would give them a great explanation as to what happened to the dinosaurs etc.
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Noah
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2013, 06:26:08 PM »
I found something interesting concerning this topic.  I came across the Ancient Book of "Jasher"

I don't think you came across the actual book of Jasher.  While it is referenced in the hebrew bible, it seems to have been lost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jasher_%28biblical_references%29

but +1 for mentioning it.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Noah
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2013, 07:13:23 PM »
How can you lose a book like that?  They found Jesus' tinker toys not long ago.  You would think a book would be easy.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Andy S.

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Re: Noah
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2013, 11:47:06 PM »

I don't think you came across the actual book of Jasher.  While it is referenced in the hebrew bible, it seems to have been lost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jasher_%28biblical_references%29

Interesting that Wikipedia thought this book is completely "unknown".  I knew that the book I was reading couldn't be the "actual" book of Jasher.  Hell, I've done my textual criticism homework and I don't think we have the "actual" Bible today.  I have always thought the book of Jasher had some historical validity to it but I always thought a lot of it was doubtful as it would have obviously have major scribal errors and corruption.
 
The introduction to the book of Jasher that I have (by Ken Johnson Th.D) says, "Much of the extra information contained in Jasher can also be found in the Babylonian Talmud, the Mishna, and Ginzberg's "Legends of the Jews".  There are numerous qoutes showing Rabbi Eliazar used this book of Jasher extensively in the first century.  We can know for a fact that the Mishna and Talmud used this book of Jasher as a source document and not the other way around.  Also, since the "Ancient Seder Olam" was written in about AD 169 and references Jasher, we know the book of Jasher was used by historians in the second century.

I don't have the time or passion to investigate all this.  I did, however, find one interesting website though: 
http://www.wnae.org/jasherrevealed.htm

The best counter-arguments from this website are:

Certainly many serious scholars have concluded that this Book of Jasher is authentic. The well known Hebraist and Rabbinic Scholar (and translator of the 1840 Book of Jasher) Moses Samuel wrote of Jasher:

    "...the book is, with the exception of some doubtful parts, a venerable monument of antiquity; and that, notwithstanding some few additions have been made to it in comparatively modern times, it still retains sufficient to prove it a copy of the book referred to in Joshua, ch. x, and 2 Samuel, ch. 1."
    - Moses Samuel, Hebraist and Rabbinic Scholar

And my old friend and mentor, the late Dr. Cyrus Gordon (who was the world's leading Semitist until his death) said:

    "There can be little doubt that the book of Jasher was a national epic... The time is ripe for a fresh investigation of such genuine sources of Scripture, particularly against the background of the Dead Sea Scrolls."
    - Dr. Cyrus Gordon

Proof of the Ancient Origin of the Book of Jasher

One major stumbling block in Book of Jasher research has been the lack of real evidence that the Book of Jasher (the one that we have) is truly ancient. There has been no hard evidence to prove that this Book of Jasher existed prior to 1625.

But now the proof has been found!

In the Masoretic Text and Septuagint of Gen. 5:18 has "And Jared lived one hundred and sixty two years". But the Book of Jasher 2:37 has "And Jared lived sixty two years". Amazingly this agrees with the Samaritan Pentateuch of Gen. 5:18.

How could the Book of Jasher and the Samaritan Pentateuch share the same scribal error? How could this reading have made its way into the Book of Jasher? If the Book of Jasher were a late compilation made in the Middle Ages, it would certainly have simply copied from the Masoretic Text. Surely a Jewish writer in Europe in the Middle Ages would not have copied data from the Samaritan Pentateuch. This is clear evidence for the ancient origin of the Book of Jasher.

There is also a similar scribal error in Jasher 5:13 where Methuselah begets Lamech at eighty seven. In the Masoretic Text this number is given as one hundred and eighty seven. In the Septuagint it is given as one hundred and sixty seven, and in the Samaritan Pentateuch as sixty seven.

Here the reading agrees with the Samaritan Pentateuch in omitting “one hundred” but agrees with the Masoretic Text in reading “eighty seven”. The Book of Jasher is clearly part of the ancient textual tradition here, and not simply borrowing from the Masoretic Text.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, who knows.  I actually find this stuff interesting though.  I've read most of the book of Jasher (1625 ed.) and I would actually recommend it to others.  It helped in my de-conversion as it helped me realize how stupid beliefs get developed.  Many times I would read this book and say, "this is just plain stupid".  But then I would compare it to the stupid ideas in the "inspired writings" and there would be no difference. ;D

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Noah
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2013, 11:57:47 PM »
Im pretty sure the book of Jasher is actually mentioned in another book included in the bible, in the context of assuming the reader has read it. Im sure one of those bible gateway word searches can find it.

Offline Andy S.

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Re: Noah
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2013, 01:03:35 AM »
Im pretty sure the book of Jasher is actually mentioned in another book included in the bible.

2 Timothy eludes to possibly referencing Jasher.  Paul names the two magicians who withstood Moses: Jannes and Jambres (2 Tim. 3:8-9).  This event is recorded in Exodus 7:8-13; but the names of the magicians are never given in the Old Testament.  Many believe Paul knew their names from this ancient book of Jasher.  I agree with the "many" on this.
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Noah
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2013, 07:18:32 AM »
Im pretty sure the book of Jasher is actually mentioned in another book included in the bible.

2 Timothy eludes to possibly referencing Jasher.  Paul names the two magicians who withstood Moses: Jannes and Jambres (2 Tim. 3:8-9).  This event is recorded in Exodus 7:8-13; but the names of the magicians are never given in the Old Testament.  Many believe Paul knew their names from this ancient book of Jasher.  I agree with the "many" on this.

Got it... I think its omitted in some translations, but this is the KJV

Joshua 10:13
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:12-14 (in Context) Joshua 10 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2 Samuel 1:18
(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)
2 Samuel 1:17-19 (in Context) 2 Samuel 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations


So, the bible writers of the canonized books read and used and referenced Jasher, but the democratic bible approval committee decided to leave it out? Makes no sense at all.

Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: Noah
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2013, 03:29:18 AM »
And Noah went and seated himself by the door of the ark, and of all flesh that crouched before him, he brought into the ark, and all that stood before him he left upon earth."
Do you know Disney's Fantasia 2000? In one sequence, Donald Duck plays the role of Noah ... and in one scene, there's a dragon, a unicorn, and a sphinx (I think) laughing their asses off at the project.
So I will always think of this as the Disney theory of extinction.
"Deferinate" itself appears to be a new word... though I'm perfectly carmotic with it.
-xphobe

Offline Petey

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Re: Noah
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2013, 11:39:49 AM »
The story of the great flood is an irredeemable mess from more than just a logistical standpoint.  Consider the question "why didn't god also kill Satan and the demons?"  I don't think that there's any way to consider that issue that doesn't leave some gaping logical holes with serious ramifications down the line.

Because at the time the flood story was written, demons and "hell" in general hadn't been invented yet, and Satan was still a faithful servant of Yahweh.
He never pays attention, he always knows the answer, and he can never tell you how he knows. We can't keep thrashing him. He is a bad example to the other pupils. There's no educating a smart boy.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Noah
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2013, 11:46:45 AM »
And you can't flood hell.  The water would just turn into steam.  Come on folks...use your heads.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Samothec

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Re: Noah
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2013, 04:44:07 PM »
Day 1 after landfall
We have been surprised by the fish we see dead all over the drying ground. The hills were the first places to dry and show a dusting of white on them – salt. Will this be enough to prevent our crops from growing? Although we have a bigger problem as we are out of food from the ark and all the drowned plants are just rotting vegetation. Almost none of the [herbivores] can eat what we have plenty of. And it stinks everywhere. If not rotting plants then of rotting fish.

Day 4 after landfall
The [herbivores] that can't eat the rotting vegetation have starved to death. Well, those that weren't already caught by the [carnivores]. A few animals are just barely surviving but it is easy to see the [carnivores] will have soon eaten all the [herbivores]. Not that they've waited to start eating the [omnivores] and smaller [carnivores]. Except for the [dog-kind] and [big-cat-kind] there are no pairs of animals left except for the [carrion-bird-kind]. Not even those we had seven of.

Day 6 after landfall
We were forced to kill the last of the animals – [big-cat-kind] – for self preservation. My eldest son saw one of the [rodent-kind] scurrying around but that is the only animal. I dread tomorrow. How can we give thanks to [god] when all is dead?

Day 10 after landfall
Caught and killed the last of the [carrion-bird-kind] this afternoon. That was the last of the meat. This morning my youngest son tried eating the rotting fish while his wife tried eating the rotting vegetation and both have been violently ill since. We have nothing left to eat.

Day 12 after landfall
We buried both my youngest son and his wife today. We are starving. I had terrible thoughts about what to eat then begged [god]'s forgiveness for such thoughts.

Day 14 after landfall
Today we prayed and begged [god] for guidance and food. I will not write of the thoughts that came to mind for they must have been from [god's adversary].

Day 40 after landfall
There is nothing more for me to eat. Neither [god] nor [god's adversary] responds to my prayers, pleas or begging. Unless the world miraculously springs anew from my corpse, this is the end.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Noah
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2013, 04:06:27 PM »
^^^And that is a horrible enough scenario without the massive piles of rotting human and animal carcasses everywhere. The disease vector from the contaminated water alone would have been enough to kill off Noah's family even before they ate each other and starved to death.

That is what kills people in refugee camps even when they have enough food. Dysentery, cholera, all that fun water-borne stuff.  Clearly, the geniuses who wrote the Noah tale did not know about disease germs like viruses and bacteria.  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Noah
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2013, 06:55:25 PM »
Here is a .pdf of The Book of Jasher: http://www.remnantofthelight.net/the_book_of_jasher.pdf (390 pages of it)
It seems to be a rehash of the earlier books of the Bible. Note, it was translated in 1840 and printed in 1887, so it's obviously authentic...

I am willing to part with my copy (signed by God and with Free plastic figure of Adam) for $2,000,000
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Noah
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2013, 03:27:48 PM »
^^^^Who modeled for the figure of Adam? If it was Chris Evans, we may have a deal. Assuming removable fig leaf.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Samothec

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Re: Noah
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2013, 12:39:24 AM »
^^^And that is a horrible enough scenario without the massive piles of rotting human and animal carcasses everywhere. The disease vector from the contaminated water alone would have been enough to kill off Noah's family even before they ate each other and starved to death.

That is what kills people in refugee camps even when they have enough food. Dysentery, cholera, all that fun water-borne stuff.  Clearly, the geniuses who wrote the Noah tale did not know about disease germs like viruses and bacteria.  &)

Yeah, I cherry picked which of the very many problems (that exist in that scenario) that I wanted to deal with for the narrative. One could try to claim that they could have found a fresh water spring. One could also make all sorts of claims to try to refute my narrative but that doesn't change the fact that the scenario fails big time. It is a horror story badly dressed up as a morality tale. It is also a second retelling of the story but with the two gods (the destroyer and the savior) being conflated into just one. I doubt anyone here is surprised that it fails.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Online Mrjason

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Re: Noah
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2013, 12:21:09 PM »
what happened to all the water?
there must have been millions of cubic cubits of the stuff.
"Evaporated" doesn't really cut it.
That means it is still in the air and we have a potential "The Day After Tomorrow" type scenario if the weather conditions are right. Would god really kill us all by accident? Would he permit such an awful film to be made?
Was the first flood an accident? On no, it wasn't the big guy told his pal Noah about it. My bad.
When everyone else saw Noah building this boat did no one think to question what he was doing?
No.
Even when it started raining did anyone think "hang on a moment that Noah bloke has just built a massive boat, lets see if he can give us a ride"
No they didn't. They were dumb. And they died for it.
Same goes for the animals that weren't on the ark. At the very least the birds that weren't on the boat could have got in if they had wanted to. I've seen pigeons sheltering under the eves when it rains. They didn't on this occasion though.
only the ones who did get out of the wet survived.

In light of the above, I put it to you that the tale of the great flood is, in fact an allegory of Darwinian theory rather than a story about god.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Noah
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2013, 03:23:48 PM »
what happened to all the water?

[YEC]
There are these holes in the bottom of the ocean.  Or there were, anyway.  And all the water went into those holes and is inside the earth.  And that is what causes the continental plates to shift.  The world used to be just one continent.  Even science says that. But the flood made the continents move.  Praise jesus.


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Online Graybeard

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Re: Noah
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2013, 03:49:58 PM »
Sir, you are heretic, At the time of the great flood, the fountains of the deep burst forth, the excess water was ejected into space and landed as an icy comet on Mars, hence the water that must have been on Mars.

Quote
From: zena taylor <xxxxx@yahoo.ca>
To: paulxxx@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, February 24, 2011 10:07:33 PM
Subject: Genesis Flood and Mars


Dear<name>:
 
Thank you for your interest in Creation Moments and our little radio program.
As far as I am aware, there is only one creationist who has suggested a possible connection between water [?] on Mars, water on our Moon and the Genesis Flood. The quote below is taken from the seventh edition [2001] of Dr. Walter Brown’s book In the Beginning …
 
 Quote page 199: About 85% of a comet’s mass is frozen water. Therefore to understand comet origins, one must ask, “Where is water found?” Earth … must head the list … other planets, moons and even interstellar space have only traces of water, or possible water. These traces, instead of producing the comets, may have been caused by comets or water vapor that the “fountains of the great deep” launched into space [at the beginning of the Genesis Flood]. Quote continued, page 200. How could so many comets have recently hit the moon, and probably the planet Mercury [and Mars] that ice remains? Ice on the Moon and certainly on Mercury [and Mars] should disappear faster than the comets that deposited it. However, if 50,000 comets were ejected recently [5,000 years ago] from the Earth and an “ocean” of water vapor was injected into the inner solar system, the problem disappears. Comet impacts on Mars probably created brief saltwater flows, carving the famous “erosion” channels.
 
Brackets in the above quote are my added words. Dr. Brown’s discussion then continues for several more pages and includes tables of data and equations. I have great respect for Dr. Brown and know him personally as a Christian brother. Dr Brown’s hydroplate theory proposes that prior to the Genesis Flood there was an annular space between the Earth’s outer shell and the solid inner core. That space was maintained by supporting pillars between the shell and the core and was filled with hot salty water under pressure. At the time of the Flood the outer shell cracked down the center of what is today the Atlantic Ocean and the crack continued around the world at the ocean bottoms; there is abundant evidence for this. The Genesis Flood was initiated by this fracture opening to release the water jetting into space, breaking up into frozen balls and becoming orbiting comets. Evidently, some of these comets have since hit the Moon, Mercury and, in recent discoveries, possibly Mars. In another place he points out that on these planetary bodies the ice turned to water that left evidences of its presence by gullies, canyons etc but in the very low atmospheric pressures, this water quickly vaporized.
 
I can thoroughly recommend Dr.Brown’s rather massive though well reproduced book but particularly his scholarship. It can be purchased or downloaded at no cost at http://www.creationscience.com/
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Tonus

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Re: Noah
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2013, 05:50:38 PM »
When everyone else saw Noah building this boat did no one think to question what he was doing?
Apparently they were too busy being evil 100% of the time, thereby deserving to die.  That includes the evil old people, evil women, evil infants and children, and the evil, uh... dinosaurs.

Anyway, the water was always there, the Earth was just really really smooth and level so that the extra water easily covered it, then when the water sloshed around for 150 forty days it formed the mountains and deep oceans and even Long Island.  It was crazy stuff, man.  Anyway, that's why you can see a blue-ish sediment layer in ancient rocks the world over.  They're blue from the water!

Or maybe it's a load of bollocks.  But it's so hard to tell!

Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: Noah
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2013, 01:29:34 AM »
"evil infants"
"Anyway, that's why you can see a blue-ish sediment layer in ancient rocks the world over.  They're blue from the water!"

 :laugh:!!

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Noah
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2013, 04:22:27 PM »
Dr Brown’s hydroplate theory proposes that prior to the Genesis Flood there was an annular space between the Earth’s outer shell and the solid inner core. That space was maintained by supporting pillars between the shell and the core and was filled with hot salty water under pressure. At the time of the Flood the outer shell cracked down the center of what is today the Atlantic Ocean and the crack continued around the world at the ocean bottoms; there is abundant evidence for this. The Genesis Flood was initiated by this fracture opening to release the water jetting into space, breaking up into frozen balls and becoming orbiting comets.

I love stuff like this-- it is what the adjective "craptastic" was invented for. What is the comic book mechanism for jetting water from the earth with so much force that it reached past the atmosphere into space? What stopped all the water on the planet from likewise "jetting"? Why didn't the force make Noah and the boat also fly up into space? And how could such a force leave anything alive on the earth?!

Why do they even bother to try to explain this impossible sh!t with science?

I guess that's what they think mean when they say that the TOE is "just a theory". A theory being something pulled from.... the bowels of the earth. ;D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline sun_king

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Re: Noah
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2013, 04:47:19 PM »
What is the comic book mechanism for jetting water from the earth with so much force that it reached past the atmosphere into space?

From the 3rd law, this can alter the orbit of earth (possibly moving it out of the solar system) or make the earth spin faster depending on the direction of the "jet".


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Noah
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2013, 05:36:07 PM »
^^^Like I was thinking. Would one wooden boat survive such a force? Would anything be left alive on the earth? I am imagining Noah and the gang with globes on their heads, hanging onto the sides of the open ark as it flies off the planet, yelling "Whoa, nelly!" like a Bozo cartoon.



But then again, these are the kind of people whose scientific sophistication is about that of a 5-year-old. They wonder why you can't open the windows on airplanes to let in a little fresh air. Because god.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Tonus

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Re: Noah
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2013, 07:17:26 PM »
Dr Brown’s hydroplate theory proposes that prior to the Genesis Flood there was an annular space between the Earth’s outer shell and the solid inner core. That space was maintained by supporting pillars between the shell and the core and was filled with hot salty water under pressure. At the time of the Flood the outer shell cracked down the center of what is today the Atlantic Ocean and the crack continued around the world at the ocean bottoms; there is abundant evidence for this. The Genesis Flood was initiated by this fracture opening to release the water jetting into space, breaking up into frozen balls and becoming orbiting comets.
That whole "there is all kinds of evidence" line gets old pretty fast.

Offline Shankly

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Re: Noah
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2013, 08:07:56 AM »
I was recently involved in a discussion with someone who proposes a similar theory.

My wife and son are Christians, but my son has a very strong belief in evolution and is keen to put this point to any of his friends who have any creationist leanings. Our local vicar's wife is the daughter of Anthony Bush, who runs Noah's Ark Zoo near Bristol and who has a crackpot theory that runs along the same lines as that quoted above(and can be found on his website if you could be bothered). He was giving a talk at the church, so we went along.

Most of the people there were Christians, but I could sense a growing feeling of incredulity as he put forward his theories. I argued quite strongly with him on a number of points, but it was his idea of this enormous gushing forth of water and the forces involved that brought out questions from others, mostly along the lines of 'How did Noah and the ark survive?' His only answer was that God protected them which, as he had previously tried to argue from a scientific viewpoint, however misguided, was an admission of defeat.

 

Offline screwtape

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Re: Noah
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2013, 08:13:00 AM »
His only answer was that God protected them which, as he had previously tried to argue from a scientific viewpoint, however misguided, was an admission of defeat.

makes you crazy, doesn't it?
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Offline Shankly

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Re: Noah
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2013, 10:49:23 AM »
His only answer was that God protected them which, as he had previously tried to argue from a scientific viewpoint, however misguided, was an admission of defeat.

makes you crazy, doesn't it?

Yeah - I'd promised my wife that I'd behave and not say anything to embarrass her when she was next in church, but I did say that resorting to claiming that Noah survived by magic wasn't very scientific.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Noah
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2013, 10:57:51 AM »
It's not just not scientific.  It is outright stupid.

and you should not make promises like that, especially to your wife.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Noah
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2013, 05:12:26 PM »
It's not just not scientific.  It is outright stupid.

and you should not make promises like that, especially to your wife.

My husband is a Christian and there are just some things we don't argue about. Sometimes we have to pick our battles. Like, our teen daughter will be getting the HPV shot. Case closed, end of discussion. But if my husband asks me to go to a service and be respectful, I will.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.