Author Topic: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed  (Read 2274 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lectus

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
  • Darwins +18/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • The messiah of mental freedom
The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« on: February 05, 2013, 11:33:41 AM »
Most Christians consider the event of crucification as a "victory over death" or something really HARD that God did to save us. It's the ultimate sacrifice he did because he loves us.

It all sounds cool and romantic, but I think most christians never stopped to think this:

Why does God need to sacrifice his son (which essentially is himself made flesh) to save humanity?

So, essentially the sacrifice was Him bargaining with Satan? "Look, I'll kill myself and respawn and we're even, okay?". Then how can christians claim that God has everything under control when he needs to do sacrifices of himself/his son to forgive sins?
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6462
  • Darwins +769/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 12:13:40 PM »
I look at the story the same way. If real, his competence level as a deity is incredibly low. First of all he's omnipotent but doesn't see the tree thing coming. Then he fails to take corrective measures when only two folks have gone sour on him and waits a thousand years or so before drowning everyone but the most incompetent family around. So then that doesn't take either and humans continue to be steaming piles of shit, so he recruits the kid to play a cameo role as savior so that he can get stapled to some sticks, tossed in a cave and then awakened so he can go back home. Sacrificially speaking, that was fairly a fairly mild undertaking. And all for nought. Most of us don't believe it, and the ones that do think it is their job to be obnoxious. Not a good scene.

Any god worth the ink written about him would have at the very least kept sending the kid back until we humans got the message. Better yet this god guy should have sent his whole frickin' family. To expect one kid to make a difference, when JC was clearly no Tom Cruise, no John Travolta (oops, wrong religion), was asking way too much. We humans need multiple sources if we are going to consider information reliable. If this god guy actually made us, then he built in our skepticism and our questions, and he forgot to allow for our intelligence while feebly attempting to inform.

It is physically impossible to pick a "fruit", eat it, and have it change our genetics forever and ever. Just like it is impossible to make me believe such a wimpy story. If real, this god guy can't inform his way out of a wet paper bag. If he isn't, a whole bunch of humans can't think their way out of one.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 12:15:12 PM by ParkingPlaces »
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline bgb

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
  • Darwins +8/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • That felt great.
    • BGBART SHIRTS AND GIFTS
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 12:22:29 PM »
The joke  of religion is that god knew the results of sin and had a eternity to get it right.  I hear lots of excuses why this god is loveable.  Sure isn't my lord.  My father who was a abuser was better than god.  He never hung eternal burning on me.
The whole point of science is that most of it is uncertain. That's why science is exciting--because we don't know. Science is all about things we don't understand. The public, of course, imagines science is just a set of facts. But it's not.  Freeman Dyson

Offline stuffin

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 734
  • Darwins +26/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 12:43:33 PM »
Most Christians consider the event of crucification as a "victory over death"

That is the carrot which causes the donkey to keep pulling the load.



When scrutinized the story of jesus comes off as concocted.

Using an invisible magic being god impregnated a human who bore his child which he later had killed in a sacrificial offering to himself in order to save mankind for the sin he negligently let happen.

What is stopping god from presenting a solid event (or evidence) in which he leaves no doubt in our minds about his existence?  This would cetainly cutail many of the evil acts that occur everday

Instead, we get this jesus story, told to believe it thus we will be forgiven and go to eternal happiness at the lord’s side. Or you could point to all the other god interventions (floods, murder, plaques and so on) as evidence of god (and xians happily do this).
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10401
  • Darwins +185/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 12:57:35 PM »
It does appear to have a very big flaw yet the sheep don't see it.  Like a big sink hole in the street and people keep driving into it.

God, who knows all...present, past, and future...could not solve a fruit/talking snake thing so had to kill Himself because of rules He Himself put in place.  And what all changed in the world because of this great sacrifice?  Not much.  It's worse by a long shot.

Why does he have to play with the devil at all?  Could He have not made the devil not exist?  See...problem solved.

All stories need a good guy, bad guy, and a plot.  This one is getting really old and not worth dying for.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Tero

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
  • Darwins +18/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 02:38:34 PM »
It's all symbolic. And designed for simple people to think of Jesus as real, like us.

Offline Bluecolour

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Darwins +5/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 03:21:19 PM »
The story isn't flawed. One might choose not to believe it but there really isn't any error in its telling.
God says: Don't eat that, you'll die if you eat that.
They eat it anyway, they die and then He comes down to bring them back to life.
The End.
Where exactly is the flaw?

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4366
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 03:27:34 PM »
The story isn't flawed. One might choose not to believe it but there really isn't any error in its telling.
God says: Don't eat that, you'll die if you eat that.
They eat it anyway, they die and then He comes down to bring them back to life.
The End.
Where exactly is the flaw?

Somebody once said that Christianity was the doctrine that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

That's not right.  Shoot, that's not even wrong.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Bluecolour

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Darwins +5/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2013, 03:29:48 PM »
Most Christians consider the event of crucification as a "victory over death" or something really HARD that God did to save us. It's the ultimate sacrifice he did because he loves us.

Also the victory over death was the Resurrection not the Crucifixion.[1]
 1. My God! this actually has the word 'Fiction' right inside of it.

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2742
  • Darwins +77/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 03:30:45 PM »
The story isn't flawed. One might choose not to believe it but there really isn't any error in its telling.
God says: Don't eat that, you'll die if you eat that.
They eat it anyway, they die and then He comes down to bring them back to life.
The End.
Where exactly is the flaw?

Assuming you're referring to the Adam and Eve story...

God said they would die on the very day they ate the fruit.

Adam lived 920 years.

It doesn't say how long Eve lived, but apparently, she lived long enough to give birth to at least three children.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline hickdive

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
  • Darwins +32/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 03:40:08 PM »
Ultimately, jesus gave up a long weekend for you (allegedly).

For the eternal, uncreated, omniscient, and omnipotent creator of the universe, the earth, humans, and sin; sacrificing yourself to yourself after less than the twinkling of your eye and then resurrecting yourself from death (except you weren't really dead otherwise you couldn't resurrect yourself) after an even shorter period is a mere parlour trick.
Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline Bluecolour

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Darwins +5/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 04:05:10 PM »
Assuming you're referring to the Adam and Eve story...

God said they would die on the very day they ate the fruit.

Adam lived 920 years.

It doesn't say how long Eve lived, but apparently, she lived long enough to give birth to at least three children.
It wasn't referring to a physical death, same way the 'new life' in Christ doesn't refer to a physical life.
Dead in sin, alive in Christ, born again, a new creature, new life, none of it is talking about biology. Dead in biblical sense refers to separation from the life of God. Adam was separated from God when he ate the fruit (the sudden nakedness and the 'where are you?').
Or do you think Moses and all the thousands of other Jews that heard this story would not have been able to identify what should have been such a gaping hole in their text?

Ultimately, jesus gave up a long weekend for you (allegedly).

For the eternal, uncreated, omniscient, and omnipotent creator of the universe, the earth, humans, and sin; sacrificing yourself to yourself after less than the twinkling of your eye and then resurrecting yourself from death (except you weren't really dead otherwise you couldn't resurrect yourself) after an even shorter period is a mere parlour trick.

So? If you were trying to get a book off a really high shelf and someone much taller than you came to get it for you, would you refuse their help because "He's so tall, getting the book is nothing to him, but its so difficult for me."

God didn't die for our sins because it was difficult for him, he did it because knew he could. No one asked you to feel sorry for Jesus. Your pity can't get you to heaven nor does shedding a few tears while watching the Passion make you a better Christian.

God: "If you want something done right..."
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 04:11:00 PM by Bluecolour »

Offline hickdive

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
  • Darwins +32/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2013, 04:22:00 PM »
To take your analogy to the logical conclusion;

I need the book off that top shelf otherwise I will die, the tall person who is offering to retrieve the book for me is the one who put it out of reach in the first place and is also responsible for the illness I need the book to find the cure for.


Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
  • Darwins +533/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2013, 04:28:04 PM »
Assuming you're referring to the Adam and Eve story...

God said they would die on the very day they ate the fruit.

Adam lived 920 years.

It doesn't say how long Eve lived, but apparently, she lived long enough to give birth to at least three children.
It wasn't referring to a physical death, same way the 'new life' in Christ doesn't refer to a physical life.
If you recaall, Genesis was in the Old Testament and Genesis is the Jewish creation myth.

It is patently clear that when God said,

"Ge:2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

He meant that Adam and Eve would no longer be immortal. We can conclude this because there is an antidote to the Tree of Knowledge: it is the Tree of Life that is guarded by manic Cherubs with flaming swords (How much have they contributed to Global Warming, eh?) Read Genesis!

Now, even your average Broze-Age peasant storyteller would not make the mistake of (a) showing God to be wrong or (b) killing off Adam and Eve, as the whole point of his story was to explain the origins of mankind and Bronze Age peasants had no idea about evolution.

Quote
Dead in sin, alive in Christ, born again, a new creature, new life, none of it is talking about biology. Dead in biblical sense refers to separation from the life of God. Adam was separated from God when he ate the fruit (the sudden nakedness and the 'where are you?').

This is simply garbage

Quote
Or do you think Moses
Moses never existed.

Quote
and all the thousands of other Jews that heard this story would not have been able to identify what should have been such a gaping hole in their text?

Which is what I have said but, unlike you, I explained it correctly. You see your idea falls down as the Jews never accepted Christ and believe that, after death, you just enter some half-way house rather than go to heaven (Nobody in the OT went to heaven.)

Quote
So? If you were trying to get a book off a really high shelf and someone much taller than you came to get it for you, would you refuse their help because "He's so tall, getting the book is nothing to him, but its so difficult for me."

How ludicrous is that as a parable? No one dies, nobody comes back to life, nobody makes the unprovable claim that "your sins are forgiven" and nobody says there is a mystical invisible friend living above the clouds. He just gets a book.

Quote
God didn't die for our sins because it was difficult for him, he did it because knew he could.

Can you explain how gods die?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12338
  • Darwins +677/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2013, 04:37:53 PM »
Or do you think Moses and all the thousands of other Jews that heard this story would not have been able to identify what should have been such a gaping hole in their text?

Yes.  This.  All this talk about "spiritual death" is bullshit.  There is no such concept in Judaism.  There is no mention of "spiritual" death in the bible. There is no distinction.  It is an apologetic term, which is to say, wholly fabricated bullshit.  It had to be invented to explain these gaping holes that have been pointed out.

None of the quotes from Don Stewart, Intrepid Bible Explorer, include the words "spiritual death".[1]  They only say death.  He has to be the one to say it, because it isn't there. 


God didn't die for our sins

Also a stupid idea.  The whole jesus episode was nothing more than a puppet show played out by god, for god.  It was only necessary because god made it necessary, which makes no sense at all. 

The more parsimonious answer is, nobody expected jesus H to die,[2] so rather than face reality, they had to concoct a story that allowed them to keep their ridiculous and demonstrably untrue beliefs. 

It is a common thing for the human brain to do.  It is a coping mechanism.  Look at every end times cult.  They have excuses.  Look at UFO cults.  They have excuses.  The phenomenon is recorded all over the place,[3] but particularly well in one book entitled When Prophecy Fails.[4] 

 1. http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=106
 2. you know, except the Romans, and the jews, and pretty much anyone who was not already a jesus fan...
 3. http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2011/04/when-facts-fail-ufo-cults-birthers-and-cognitive-dissonance
 4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline sun_king

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 388
  • Darwins +25/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • We see things not as they are, but as we are
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2013, 04:45:57 PM »
The story isn't flawed. One might choose not to believe it but there really isn't any error in its telling.
God says: Don't eat that, you'll die if you eat that.
They eat it anyway, they die and then He comes down to bring them back to life.
The End.
Where exactly is the flaw?

The line in bold italics is the flaw. Almost everywhere in the book it is bragged that god is omni-awesome. With that line it is proven that its all bogus, skydaddy is not given any respect by any of the first two prototypes of Homo Godinhisown Imagius. (I would suppose god would have known that they would not care for his words[1] and still chose to make a fool of himself for reasons that is still a mystery)

Either there is a flaw or big boss is a mega nincompoop. Your call.

I thought you guys stopped using "spiritual death" after Harold Camping proclaimed that the world ended spiritually sometime last year.
 1. Basic requirement for omnipotence, should know what will happen

Offline Bluecolour

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Darwins +5/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2013, 05:05:26 PM »
To take your analogy to the logical conclusion;

I need the book off that top shelf otherwise I will die, the tall person who is offering to retrieve the book for me is the one who put it out of reach in the first place and is also responsible for the illness I need the book to find the cure for.

How did you get here?
It was mans fall that put him out of reach of the divine.
Recap: God gave Adam(man) something, he lost it, God told him how to get it back, he still couldn't get it back, Jesus comes down and does what man was unable to do, he gets the prize, gives it back to man and goes back up.

Graybeard.
It says nothing about the tree of life being an 'antidote' to the tree of knowledge. If it was then God could just let them eat it and undo the error.
A lot of the other stuff you've said just doesn't tie up anywhere.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6462
  • Darwins +769/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2013, 05:15:40 PM »
The story isn't flawed. One might choose not to believe it but there really isn't any error in its telling.
God says: Don't eat that, you'll die if you eat that.
They eat it anyway, they die and then He comes down to bring them back to life.
The End.
Where exactly is the flaw?

If that's all it was, I wouldn't complain.

But they ate it and caused all offspring to be sinners. That's where it gets hokey. They ate it even though he knew they would, then he got upset with them. And us. They ate it and changed the whole complexion of the planet. Over one snack.

They ate it at the suggestion of an evil talking snake. Which perplexed them not because it talked (they hadn't been around long enough to know that no other creatures talked, normally), but because it was capable of evil, and up to that point they had no idea what it was. Remember, these kids had no social skills, no elder equals to give them hints and tips about surviving in paradise. They had each other and minimal knowledge of their surroundings. And a big daddy who had unnaturally high expectations of them. Especially given that they were his idea in the first place, and also given that he had not made them as perfect as their surroundings. Toss in inbred flaws and the serpent dude and it was a disaster waiting to happen. A disaster as long as Mr. God was in charge and anal about everything. Except his own ability to breathe life into dirt. Or ribs.

So it is a silly story when one tries to read it as real. Were it just another myth, like Achilles and his hell or whatever, then it would be interesting from an historical point of view. But as the impetus for a billion wrongdoings in the name of the god that couldn't build straight, it isn't much of a tale.

Toss in the kid who couldn't stay dead long enough to be really impressive, sacrifice-wise, and it just gets worse. I'm sorry, but a god has to do a lot better than that to convince me that he is real.

Added: Remember, this is the guy that let half a million people wander around in the desert for 40 years. And you want me to use his as guidance. His skill-sets are wanting. Omni big-time.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 05:19:22 PM by ParkingPlaces »
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline hickdive

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
  • Darwins +32/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2013, 05:16:38 PM »
How did I get here? By the same evolutionary and biological processes you did.

So your god is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Then why worship it?
Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6685
  • Darwins +889/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2013, 05:52:57 PM »
To take your analogy to the logical conclusion;

I need the book off that top shelf otherwise I will die, the tall person who is offering to retrieve the book for me is the one who put it out of reach in the first place and is also responsible for the illness I need the book to find the cure for.

How did you get here?
It was mans fall that put him out of reach of the divine.
Recap: God gave Adam(man) something, he lost it, God told him how to get it back, he still couldn't get it back, Jesus comes down and does what man was unable to do, he gets the prize, gives it back to man and goes back up.

I am glad you are taking this on, Bluecolor.

First, you have to show that there is "the divine" to be out of reach of. Like, if this earth is all there is to our existence, then there was no fall. We are what we are.

And second, why did god tell an ordinary man to do something if only Jesus could do it? Was god being a jerk or is there more to it?

And third, god knew that a)man would fall, and b)man would be unable to fix it himself, requiring c)the whole Jesus sacrifice thing. Anyone whould be able to see that this is messed up. But god, for reasons nobody can explain, went ahead with this really flawed plan.

A perfect plan can't have holes. But the more you think about this, the more holes you find that need explanatory patches.  (See, it wasn't real death-- it was spiritual death. Yeah. Whatever that is. Riiiight.)

And god is perfect, so his plan should not need patches and changeups and redos. Which suggests that this was not really the way things went down. Especially since there is not a bit of evidence that this actually happened.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2720
  • Darwins +221/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2013, 09:14:56 PM »
Where does it say that A&E were immortal prior to eating forbidden junk foods?
Why did God not explain properly, that the tree would give them wisdom, but also make them mortal?
Why did God tell the other animals to go forth and multiply, but A&E were supposed to not have sex, but still had genitalia?
Why are animals also mortal? How did dolphins eat from the tree? Was it during the flood?
Why didn't God make the tree a little higher, put child locks on the trunk, and point the saucepan handles inward?
Can good and evil not be taught? Does it require a tree?

The story of A&E works really well, as long as you don't do any thinking.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Bluecolour

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Darwins +5/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2013, 10:06:13 PM »
SCREWTAPE
Or do you think Moses and all the thousands of other Jews that heard this story would not have been able to identify what should have been such a gaping hole in their text?

Yes.  This.  All this talk about "spiritual death" is bullshit.  There is no such concept in Judaism.  There is no mention of "spiritual" death in the bible. There is no distinction.  It is an apologetic term, which is to say, wholly fabricated bullshit.  It had to be invented to explain these gaping holes that have been pointed out.

None of the quotes from Don Stewart, Intrepid Bible Explorer, include the words "spiritual death". They only say death.  He has to be the one to say it, because it isn't there. 

Even if the term is an apologetic construction it doesn't mean that it is recent. The entire concept of spiritual life and death can be dated back to the first century and to the teachings of Christ himself. To say that there was no such concept before then is irrelevant when debating a Christian. [Someone with views based on the teachings of Christ]

Quote
God didn't die for our sins

Also a stupid idea.  The whole jesus episode was nothing more than a puppet show played out by god, for god.  It was only necessary because god made it necessary, which makes no sense at all. 

The more parsimonious answer is, nobody expected jesus H to die, so rather than face reality, they had to concoct a story that allowed them to keep their ridiculous and demonstrably untrue beliefs. 

It is a common thing for the human brain to do.  It is a coping mechanism.  Look at every end times cult.  They have excuses.  Look at UFO cults.  They have excuses.  The phenomenon is recorded all over the place, but particularly well in one book entitled When Prophecy Fails.

Thanks for the material.
In truth every honestly intellectual Christian has considered this possibility. I'm confident you are also familiar with the counter-arguments raised against these and such other claims. This thread however is about neither of these arguments. It addresses Christianity as a structured idea and points to some apparent flaws within its construct. Even if in the end the idea is, as you say, an elaborate fabrication, I still say that this 'excuse' ties up together very nicely.

NOGODSFORME
I am glad you are taking this on, Bluecolor.

First, you have to show that there is "the divine" to be out of reach of. Like, if this earth is all there is to our existence, then there was no fall. We are what we are.

No i don't. I'm just saying that the basic idea of Christianity ties itself up. Still i like your question. I can't answer it here in this thread but i'll see what i can do about it later on.

Quote
And second, why did god tell an ordinary man to do something if only Jesus could do it? Was god being a jerk or is there more to it?

If your talking about Adam and the fruit then I would answer that Adam wasn't an ordinary man.

If your however talking about the law and the conditions for mans restoration then yes there was more to it. Mostly you could say that everything that happened from the garden until the death of Christ was just one long learning process. Man had to first understand who God was, come to terms with his condition and his inability to save himself, recognize the value of the sacrifice and a bunch of other stuff before it could actually all go down.
Granted 4000 years was still a long time but when you begin to understand how God works you'll see how this had less to do with what God was willing to give and more to do with what man was ready to receive.

Quote
And third, god knew that a)man would fall, and b)man would be unable to fix it himself, requiring c)the whole Jesus sacrifice thing. Anyone whould be able to see that this is messed up. But god, for reasons nobody can explain, went ahead with this really flawed plan.

First you need to ask yourself what exactly was Gods plan when he created the world and mankind? Then and only then can you begin to debate whether or not that plan was flawed.

Quote
A perfect plan can't have holes.

Not so. A perfect plan will merely achieve its intended results.
It's not that everything that goes on was deliberately set in motion by God. No. We do know however that whatever happens good or bad was allowed by him. Why? Because He's smarter than us. And even when something seemed so terrible that we could never imagine why it should ever happen God still saw the good that could come out of it. And for the sake of that good he spared the evils.

Quote
But the more you think about this, the more holes you find that need explanatory patches.  (See, it wasn't real death-- it was spiritual death. Yeah. Whatever that is. Riiiight.)

You think of it as holes, i think of it as complexity. God by definition is a complex being, and if the plan seemed too simple i think i would grow very skeptical. I like opening the bible and seeing things that i don't understand, it tells me that there is more to learn. In my own way i feel its God inviting me to learn more about himself. I imagine that's how scientists feel when they look into the skies and experience the vastness of space. I look into the bible and i experience the vastness of God.
In the end I'm not struggling to plug holes in a sinking ship, i'm learning. I'm maturing in how i see God and learning the way he sees me. Faith is not all about sitting dumb and meekly in the back of a sermon never asking why. There is a level of faith that gives one the audacity to demand answers. That kind of faith speaks of itself and that kind of faith cannot be denied, ever.
Just while typing this i've come into the understanding of things i could have never comprehended on my own, because i know my faith speaks out for me in questions that my intellect cannot conceive.
So i am grateful for those gaps as you call them, because they are more of a gift than those parts that i can know by just reading. They are amazing, and i understand that at this point i have probably begun to sound deranged to those of you reading but you must understand, there are just some things that i would never trade.

Offline DumpsterFire

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 383
  • Darwins +61/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • The Flaming Duck of Death!
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2013, 11:41:09 PM »
...my faith speaks out for me in questions that my intellect cannot conceive.

In other words, anything you don't understand or can't explain must be attributed to god. Very convenient. Plus, you never have to admit that there are some things you simply do not know.
Providing rednecks with sunblock since 1996.

I once met a man who claimed to be a genius, then boasted that he was a member of "Mesa".

Think for yourself.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6462
  • Darwins +769/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2013, 11:48:33 PM »
Quote
A perfect plan can't have holes.

Not so. A perfect plan will merely achieve its intended results.


If it is all a part of his perfect plan that we don't understand, why have so many christians been concerned that I might go to hell? If he is real, hell is part of his plan and presumably some of us need to do our part and go there to make the rest of you look like little angels. Literally.

The least you guys can do is stop complaining that we're not perfect. You can't say that we're flawed when he made sure those flaws happened. You've got to learn to go with the flow.

Also, you might take the time to learn how to quote properly on this forum. Check out this link:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html

We would appreciate it, and god is planning on it.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline sun_king

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 388
  • Darwins +25/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • We see things not as they are, but as we are
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2013, 12:34:37 AM »
...my faith speaks out for me in questions that my intellect cannot conceive.


Faith had spoken before in similar scenarios before. You should read about some of the explanations about how lightning originates. The common observation is that, when faith speaks where intellect is missing, its often ludicrous. Sun going to his tabernacle is one of them.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 12:36:30 AM by sun_king »

Offline Bereft_of_Faith

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 919
  • Darwins +39/-2
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 12:42:13 AM »
In the ancient world, almost all cultures practiced some form of offering or sacrifice to their gods.  The OT tells of the 'earliest'; Cain and Abel's offerings.  Sacrifice was practiced by the jews at the temple. 

The sacrifice story of jesus was concocted within that tradition, and since its roots ran from that tradition, it had the credentials to put an end to the practice.  'This human-god sacrifice (and everyone knows, we have to perform sacrifices)  is the ultimate, so  you don't need to do it again'

Sure.  It fails as a true sacrifice, but so do all cult sacrifices.  No god actually drinks the wine poured on the altar, nor eats the burnt offering of bull or sheep.  At least those had the virtue of being a sacrifice from someone, if not really to.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2720
  • Darwins +221/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2013, 01:32:27 AM »
Granted 4000 years was still a long time but when you begin to understand how God works you'll see how this had less to do with what God was willing to give and more to do with what man was ready to receive.

I don't think so. Man has always been ready to receive at an incredibly fast rate, but there is no proven revelation of God, because man is just making it up, and deciding it politically. For example, the Pharisees rejected sacrifice rather early, but had to get their reforms past a ruling Sadducee sect. The reason for the slow progress, is that those men had faith in old books, because they were old, not because they were seeking new signs from God. You can't seek new signs from God, because they are deemed to be from Satan, or fabrications. The attitude of Judeo Christian thinking is to accept old doctrine, not seek new truths.

Today there is hostility towards homosexuals, because of old books, a person called "Paul", who may have been faked, and an innate hatred of men who cannot produce a male heir. God could fix this situation rather easily, by appearing in the clouds, and saying "Gays are OK". But he doesn't; therefore gay is not OK. Instead, we get a slow political evolution, in spite of the Bible.

What I'm saying is that there is slow moral progress, because the books of "God" slow it down. The Bible was written with slavery, racism, underage child abuse, anti-homosexuality, divorce, anti-science, sacrifice, a God who sniffed animal fat, and who applauded child sacrifice. It was written to reflect exactly what priests in 650BC wanted, and then it stayed that way, because Israel was occupied by people who banished the kings, and let the insane priests rule.

Then an opportunity arose. The temple was destroyed, some Christians moved to Rome and Greece, and they got to fake up a new layer of moral doctrine, without having to be accountable to Sadduccees and Rabbis. They got their particular way, because of some arbitrary preferences in some Roman rulers, who adopted the religion, and then forced their new morality onto their citizens. Bravo! *Golf clap* We were obviously ready to receive some new bullshit at that point.

Christianity seems to evolve with a punctuated equilibrium, and brutal government force - just like Islam. Orthodoxy was enforced by government, until some brave western democratic states actually managed to scrub it from their constitutions. Now Christianity is in disarray, and threatened by Islam - which is a religion kept in orthodoxy by government force.

If it's acceptable for government to force religion on us, then God could always enforce his evolving rule on us by government, at any pace he liked.

Quote
Not so. A perfect plan will merely achieve its intended results.

Exactamundo. And that perfect plan could also include converting us to Islam, and then telling us that Christianity was just a joke, for crowd control.

Quote
God by definition is a complex being, and if the plan seemed too simple i think i would grow very skeptical.

That's why the atheist plan involves everyone seeing that the God of the Bible is fictional. That adds a layer of head-spinning complexity that is believable.
Quote
Faith is not all about sitting dumb and meekly in the back of a sermon never asking why.

Faith can be about rejecting your faith entirely, and realising that God wants you to be an atheist.

Quote
and i understand that at this point i have probably begun to sound deranged to those of you reading but you must understand, there are just some things that i would never trade.

Please state the nature of the medical emergency.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline wright

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1859
  • Darwins +79/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "Sleep like a log, snore like a chainsaw."
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2013, 02:21:27 AM »

So i am grateful for those gaps as you call them, because they are more of a gift than those parts that i can know by just reading. They are amazing, and i understand that at this point i have probably begun to sound deranged to those of you reading but you must understand, there are just some things that i would never trade.

You don't sound deranged to me. But you do sound like a Christian who can't quite admit that your thinking is compartmentalized to save you from the obvious contradictions of your religion.

You are making excuses for your supposedly omnipotent deity, because the alternative is, at present, too frightening for you. I did the same thing at one point; forgoing the myths of eternal love and eternal life is not painless or easy.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 03:13:23 AM by wright »
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: The basic idea of Christianity seems flawed
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2013, 03:57:32 AM »
It wasn't referring to a physical death, same way the 'new life' in Christ doesn't refer to a physical life.
Dead in sin, alive in Christ, born again, a new creature, new life, none of it is talking about biology. Dead in biblical sense refers to separation from the life of God. .....God didn't die for our sins because it was difficult for him, he did it because knew he could.
The entire concept of spiritual life and death can be dated back to the first century and to the teachings of Christ himself.

If everything in Eden is talking about the spiritual death of man and not a physical death.....

...why did Christ have to die a physical death to redeem mankind?  Surely dying a spiritual death would have made more sense?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?