{no subject} [#2733]

[pianodwarf]

So.. I just watched you video... It was rather 'interesting'...

I'm sure you have had plenty of negative feedback in the past, so might I just highlight... This isn't negative it's constructive ...

As a Christian myself.. I'm 15.. I think that your rationalisation that your existence on this earth is no no reason is a bit random ... You think you live for no reason .. :L ... And can I ask for some of your scientific explanation that God does not exist ?? Because science is beginning to explain and has begun to explain that the world was created by a form .. And not just a bundle of rocks .. But however .. I do believe that you have a right to your opinion.. Unlike you, in which it doesn't seem you like me to have my own opinion .... :L

It's interesting that you are targeting Christians ... Might I ask why ? You ask .. Why does God not listen to your prayers .. Or why does he not act .. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but Christian teaching is that of hears every prayer .. He may not choose to act because he works in mysterious ways .. but he does act and he does SPEAK to Christians every day .. He has put on my heart to end this email ...

I know the devil has a hold on your thoughts .. He had a hold on mine too... Ha had a hold on everyone's ... So that's why I want to help you and not mock you ... Just because something is hard to believe .. Doesn't mean it's not real .... If you were told tomorrow that a collision between rocks created a whole world and humans and animals .. Would you believe it ... You might be confused that in fact I would .. Why couldn't God have caused it ??

I would like the opportunity to answer some of your questions ... But please be kind to my belief in Christ as I hope I have been kind to you ..

Regards ..
[name removed] (and yes.. You have the right to believe whatever you wish .. So do I )

Sent from my iPad

[Nick]

It is not our job here to prove that God exist.  Can you prove unicorns don't exist?

The world was created by form?  What is that?

God's mysterious ways...that one covers His ass a lot.

The devil does not exist.

[Nam]

So.. I just watched you video... It was rather 'interesting'...

People who usually say "interesting", really didn't understand what they read and/or saw. Just to note.

I'm sure you have had plenty of negative feedback in the past, so might I just highlight... This isn't negative it's constructive ...

If you say so.

As a Christian myself.. I'm 15.. I think that your rationalisation that your existence on this earth is no no reason is a bit random ...

You do realize many of us are former Christians. i, myself, am a former Southern Baptist.

You think you live for no reason ..

I live because I am alive. That's a reason. So, you're incorrect; facetiousness with/out standing.

... And can I ask for some of your scientific explanation that God does not exist ?

Can I ask for scientific evidence on how it does? See how that works?

Because science is beginning to explain and has begun to explain that the world was created by a form .. And not just a bundle of rocks .. But however .. I do believe that you have a right to your opinion.. Unlike you, in which it doesn't seem you like me to have my own opinion ....

Did we come to your website and state this?

It's interesting that you are targeting Christians ...

No it's not. we each live in areas that are highly populated by one religion over another, and most--including the one(s) who created the literature, grew up in such religion. see how that works?

You ask .. Why does God not listen to your prayers .. Or why does he not act .. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but Christian teaching is that of hears every prayer .. He may not choose to act because he works in mysterious ways ..

The last part: nonsense.

but he does act and he does SPEAK to Christians every day .. He has put on my heart to end this email ...

Evidence? And that last part isn't evidence.

I know the devil has a hold on your thoughts ..

evidence? and i thought you weren't going to be negative (smilies in front of mocking s doesn't make what you say less negative), saying we don't think for ourselves but some "demon" does is negative.

He had a hold on mine too... Ha had a hold on everyone's ... So that's why I want to help you and not mock you

Too late.

... Just because something is hard to believe .. Doesn't mean it's not real ....

Nor does it mean it is real.

If you were told tomorrow that a collision between rocks created a whole world and humans and animals .. Would you believe it ... You might be confused that in fact I would .. Why couldn't God have caused it ?

If there's conclusive evidence, perhaps.

-Nam

[Irish]

You think you live for no reason

That's not it at all.  Atheists live their life with a purpose; it's just a different purpose than yours that isn't governed by belief in a deity but by volition.  An atheist is free to construct the meaning of his life around whatever he finds important or worthy.

And can I ask for some of your scientific explanation that God does not exist ??

You assume that God exists and then ask me to attempt to prove that wrong.  In the same way I can assume that dragons exist and I have one chained in my garage and ask you to prove me wrong.  See the problem?

Ignoring that dilemma there are plenty of reasons to think gods do not exist.

It's interesting that you are targeting Christians ... Might I ask why ?

Christianity is the largest religion in the world.  It's the easiest way to establish a new norm to target the largest current norm.  Also it's a regional thing.  The religious followers in the United States and most of Europe are largely Christian. If we were in the Middle East we'd be talking about Islam[1].  If we were in India we'd be talking about Hinduism.

You ask .. Why does God not listen to your prayers .. Or why does he not act .. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but Christian teaching is that of hears every prayer .. He may not choose to act because he works in mysterious ways .. but he does act and he does SPEAK to Christians every day .. He has put on my heart to end this email ...

But that's not the whole point of the message.  The whole point reads that a deity answering prayers (or not answering) and the absence of a deity appear to be the exact same, summed up in a quote I like: "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."

It's not just simply that God either answers prayers with a "yes", "no", or "wait and see" but that these choices that God appears to answer prayers with has the exact same look as random chance.  The fact is you could pray to any god or any inanimate object and you would receive the exact same responses to your prayers.  Sometimes things would go your way and you assume a "yes" answer has been received. Sometimes things do not go your way and you assume a "no" answer or a "wait and see" answer has been received.  But these responses can come from any object or deity you pray to.

If you were told tomorrow that a collision between rocks created a whole world and humans and animals

I don't have to be told that. What you're describing (very poorly) is accretion from our early solar system that built the planets we see today and evolution, a very sound and well built scientific theory; though the rocks colliding had nothing to do with evolution.

Why couldn't God have caused it ??

Because gods don't exist.

1.	And we would be stoned or beheaded for being heretics

[Astreja]

I'm sure you have had plenty of negative feedback in the past, so might I just highlight... This isn't negative it's constructive ...

No; it's negative.  Just watch yourself with a critical eye.  (Since your eyes seem to be a bit myopic on the subject of religion, you can borrow Mine for a couple of minutes.)

You think you live for no reason...

False!  You almost certainly do not possess the ability to read minds, and telling other people what they think is rude.  If you disagree, we can test your abilities in a laboratory.  Until that time, STFU about what we think, as you really don't have a clue in that regard.

He has put on my heart to end this email ...

And yet you keep going for a few more paragraphs.  If your god does exist, I suspect it's rather unhappy with you for being such a poor listener.

I know the devil has a hold on your thoughts

False!  You "know" no such thing.    You believe it.  Stop confusing faith for knowledge.

So that's why I want to help you and not mock you ...

You want to help Me?  Heeheeheeheehee!  Cool story, bro (or sis, as the case may be).

Listen up, you superstitious little pissant, and listen very, very well.  I read the Bible for the first time nearly 50 years ago, and it was quite obvious even then that it was just an old storybook.  No Garden of Eden (and, alas, no Talking Snake™ either).  No worldwide flood.  No Exodus.  No miraculously-born rabbi walking on water, turning water into wine or coming back from the dead.

And if you've ever uttered the Sinner's Prayer (IMO, the real "Mark of the Beast"), I think you should be fucking ashamed of yourself for letting this "Jesus" character die in your place for your own bad behaviour, and even more ashamed of being a follower of a god that would eternally torture anyone for anything unless they say "Yes" to a human sacrifice.

That's right, kid.  You are reverencing a supposed human sacrifice.  You've thrown your humanity and your morality into a pit of fetid  pig excrement, and you're dancing around at the edge, encouraging others to throw their better selves into the same pit.

Just because something is hard to believe .. Doesn't mean it's not real ....

Indeed.  So why are you not worshipping Athena instead of Jesus?  The ancient Greeks named the city of Athens after Her and built the Parthenon in Her honour.

I would like the opportunity to answer some of your questions ... But please be kind to my belief in Christ as I hope I have been kind to you. ..

No, I will not be kind to your beliefs; and no, you have not been kind to us.

I do hope, though, that someday you gain the maturity to turn a critical eye to the barbaric nonsense you've been taught, and enjoy a long, healthy and happy life with both feet planted firmly in reality.

[Tonus]

I know the devil has a hold on your thoughts ..

But please be kind to my belief in Christ as I hope I have been kind to you ..

I have come to be mystified by what some Christians regard as kindness.

Other than that, it's mostly a stream-of-consciousness spurt of thoughts without any reasoning behind them.  Having been raised in a religious household, it pains me to see someone so young wound up so tightly in a net of religious indoctrination.  Hopefully such rigid and baseless teaching will have the effect it had on me, leading me to eventually realize that it was all a con.  All I can suggest is that you continue to read sites like this one and keep trying to answer the difficult questions.  In time you might break free from the grip of religion.

[Tero]

The science is a bit thin. Rocks? Right. Even god needs carbon.

[grant]

That's gotta be the most obvious post where some troll is trying to talk like a 15 year old.

Haha. Fail.

[pianodwarf]

So.. I just watched you video... It was rather 'interesting'...

Glad you enjoyed it.  Which one did you see?

I'm sure you have had plenty of negative feedback in the past

That's putting it mildly.  We routinely receive things like death threats and people telling us that they are going to pray for our deaths, that we are going to spend all eternity being ass-raped by demons and that they can't stop laughing at the prospect.  Nice religion you've got there.

I think that your rationalisation that your existence on this earth is no no reason is a bit random

Who said that existence on this earth has no reason?

You think you live for no reason

And who said that?

And can I ask for some of your scientific explanation that God does not exist ??

There isn't any, per se.  However, as science discovers more and more about the world around us, things that used to be considered supernatural are increasingly being discovered to be natural.  The existence and behavior of the sun, for example, used to be considered supernatural, something done by a deity or deities, but we now know that that is not the case.  It's known as the "god of the gaps".  As science continues filling those gaps, god gets pushed further and further out of the way, and if science ever comes up with naturalistic explanations for everything, which is not a terribly farfetched notion, then god won't fit in anywhere at all.

Because science is beginning to explain and has begun to explain that the world was created by a form

Citation needed.

I do believe that you have a right to your opinion

Very gracious of you.

Unlike you, in which it doesn't seem you like me to have my own opinion

Who said that?  You're spending a lot of time putting words into our mouths.

It's interesting that you are targeting Christians ... Might I ask why ?

Because Christianity is the most common and influential religion in most Western cultures.  In America, in particular, the Christian Right is extremely powerful, and they are constantly striving to create laws that will compel everyone, Christian or not, to abide by Christian rules of behavior.  The state of Arizona, for example, is currently contemplating a bill that would forbid atheists from graduating from high school.  North Carolina recently introduced a bill attempting to establish a state-sanctioned religion, although I believe it has since been withdrawn.  Several states either have, or have considered implementing, taxpayer-funded voucher programs to allow schoolchildren to attend religious primary and secondary schools (and they attempt to exclude all private schools that are not run by some branch of Christianity).  The list goes on.

You ask .. Why does God not listen to your prayers .. Or why does he not act .. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but Christian teaching is that of hears every prayer

Yes, we're well aware of that.  That's kind of the point, which brings me to:

He may not choose to act because he works in mysterious ways ..

"You can pray for anything, and if you have faith, you will receive it."  --Matthew 21:22 (New Living Translation).  In other words, on this point, you're just plain wrong.

but he does act and he does SPEAK to Christians every day

"And here is my evidence:"

I know the devil has a hold on your thoughts

How do you know that?  Are you really so egotistical in your religious beliefs as to assume that anyone who does not share them is being deceived by an evil supernatural force?  Did it ever occur to you that it just may be possible that we're atheists because our reason has led us to that position?

So that's why I want to help you and not mock you

If an atheist were to tell you that you were deluded, and that he was going to try to "help you" by convincing you to become an atheist, how would you feel?  That's probably the same way atheists feel when you say this to them.

... Just because something is hard to believe .. Doesn't mean it's not real

Perfectly true -- there's a lot of seriously bizarre stuff in modern physics, for example.  The difference between that and deities, however, is that there is evidence for the seriously bizarre stuff in modern physics.  Deities?  Not so much.

.... If you were told tomorrow that a collision between rocks created a whole world and humans and animals .. Would you believe it

What you are attempting to describe here is the accretion process by which Earth (and the other planets) were formed.  And yes, I do believe it, because the evidence supports it.

... You might be confused that in fact I would .. Why couldn't God have caused it ??

She could have.  But again: where's the evidence?

I would like the opportunity to answer some of your questions

Please feel free to use the link in the email you received yesterday to join the forum and engage us.

Sent from my iPad

Not pertinent, but just an FYI: leaving in the default signature on your iPad makes you look rather... I'm not sure what the word is that I'm looking for.  But I do recommend you change or remove it.

[screwtape]

And can I ask for some of your scientific explanation that God does not exist ??

Sure.  But help me out.  Give me the scientific explanation that Odin does not exist, then just replace Odin with God.

... the world was created by a form .. And not just a bundle of rocks

I have no idea what that even means.

I do believe that you have a right to your opinion.. Unlike you, in which it doesn't seem you like me to have my own opinion

We're not talking about opinions. We are talking about verifiable facts.  Either there is a being that fits the description of "god" or not.  Either it created the universe, or it didn't.  Opinions are irrelevant.

And the opinions of xians are a problem because they, like all religious people, want to make my country into a theocracy, or, at the very least, base policy on their religious beliefs. 

It's interesting that you are targeting Christians ... Might I ask why ?

Because in north America xianity is the dominant religion.  Is this leading up to you getting all butt-hurt and crying about persecution and martyrdom?  I hope not, because I hear it all too frequently.  Here's a chart to illustrate it for you:
http://amptoons.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/christian_oppression_pie.png

He may not choose to act because he works in mysterious ways

You're 15.  That is old enough to know that is a non-answer.  "Nuclear power works in mysterious ways" would be an utter bullshit explanation.  "Antibiotics work in mysterous ways" is a bullshit answer.  To explain anything with "it works in mysterious ways" is another way of saying "I don't know".  So just be honest about it and say "I don't know". 

On this point, you lose.

If you were told tomorrow that a collision between rocks created a whole world and humans and animals

What the hell are you even talking about?

 

[Magiicmiles]

@st, apologies, I stuffed up the password reset on magicmiles. Can you reset again?

[Aaron123]

So.. I just watched you video... It was rather 'interesting'...

I can't help but be bothered by the mispelling of "your".

I think that your rationalisation that your existence on this earth is no no reason is a bit random ...

"Existence on Earth is no no reason"?  I'm messed up by the bad grammar.

You think you live for no reason .. :L ...

We are alive due to various biochemical reactions, if that's what you're asking.

And can I ask for some of your scientific explanation that God does not exist ??

It's up to you to demostrate that a "something" exists.  It's not up to us to demostrate that a "something" does not exist.

Because science is beginning to explain and has begun to explain that the world was created by a form .. And not just a bundle of rocks .. But however .. I do believe that you have a right to your opinion.. Unlike you, in which it doesn't seem you like me to have my own opinion .... :L

Is... he trying to say that we think that the Earth was created by a bunch of rocks fusing together?  It's hard to respond when the other guy's comments comes off as a bit incoherent.

It's interesting that you are targeting Christians ... Might I ask why ?

Christianity tends to be what we're most familar with.

You ask .. Why does God not listen to your prayers .. Or why does he not act .. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but Christian teaching is that of hears every prayer .. He may not choose to act because he works in mysterious ways .. but he does act and he does SPEAK to Christians every day ..

Sure, they SAY that, but that's not what's actually happening.

He has put on my heart to end this email ...

Better call a surgeon to get that heart back in your chest!

I know the devil has a hold on your thoughts .. He had a hold on mine too... Ha had a hold on everyone's ... So that's why I want to help you and not mock you ...

There is no such thing as the devil.

Just because something is hard to believe .. Doesn't mean it's not real ....

True.  That's why we have this thing called "evidence".

If you were told tomorrow that a collision between rocks created a whole world and humans and animals .. Would you believe it ...

Not without evidence.

You might be confused that in fact I would .. Why couldn't God have caused it ??

Sounds like you're saying you're gullible and easily manipulated.  That'll cost you a lot of problems later in life.

[Emily]

I do believe that you have a right to your opinion.. Unlike you, in which it doesn't seem you like me to have my own opinion .... :L

I've seen all the videos and I don't remember a single one saying that you don't have the right to your own opinion. It would be wrong for someone to forcibly withhold your right to an opinion, because lets face it, it's your right. But just because it's your opinion doesn't make it factual, and just because someone is questioning your opinion doesn't mean they are telling you not to hold that opinion, but rather to change that opinion.

Personally, I like it when opinions change, but I also like it when opinions change when presented by fact that go against that opinion. Don't take it too personally when your opinion can't hold up the the facts that scrutinize your opinion or if someone holds an "opinion" (IE based on facts) more correct than yours.

It's interesting that you are targeting Christians ... Might I ask why ?

Probably because the author of the videos is American and the majority of religious people in America are Christians. If the author had been raised in a predominately Muslim country he's focus on the Koran and Allah.

You ask .. Why does God not listen to your prayers .. Or why does he not act .. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but Christian teaching is that of hears every prayer .. He may not choose to act because he works in mysterious ways ..

Have you seen the video for the best optical illusion in the world It claims god does answer prayers, but with the answers "yes, no or wait". Then uses a logical explanation to support each answer.

I know the devil has a hold on your thoughts

That's your opinion, not a fact. ..

If you were told tomorrow that a collision between rocks created a whole world and humans and animals .. Would you believe it ...

That would sound pretty silly.

Why couldn't God have caused it ??

If you can prove he did then I'd consider worshiping him. If can you prove without a doubt that god caused it I'd accept it; however it wouldn't worship him for it.

I would like the opportunity to answer some of your questions ... But please be kind to my belief in Christ as I hope I have been kind to you ..

Join the forum.

(and yes.. You have the right to believe whatever you wish .. So do I )

Thank you, and I agree. But with me I have seen no reason to believe in your god. Your opinion for me to believe in your god is going to get you no where.

[Dante]

But please be kind to my belief in Christ as I hope I have been kind to you ..

Why? Why should anyone be kind to your beliefs? Do you have any good reason? If so, I'd like to hear it.

Regards ..
[name removed] (and yes.. You have the right to believe whatever you wish .. So do I )

Sure, you have a right to believe whatever you want to believe. But please, for the love of Thor, don't try to make laws and moral judgements on other people based on your belief in magic sky fairies.

[Chronos]

So.. I just watched you video... It was rather 'interesting'...

I'm sure you have had plenty of negative feedback in the past, so might I just highlight... This isn't negative it's constructive ...

As a Christian myself.. I'm 15.. I think that your rationalisation that your existence on this earth is no no reason is a bit random ... You think you live for no reason .. :L ... And can I ask for some of your scientific explanation that God does not exist ?? Because science is beginning to explain and has begun to explain that the world was created by a form .. And not just a bundle of rocks .. But however .. I do believe that you have a right to your opinion.. Unlike you, in which it doesn't seem you like me to have my own opinion .... :L

I do not have an opinion, but I do have logic.

If I were to think a god exists and I decided to be a believer, it would be my opinion that the Christian religion best represents the method of access to that god. I could also choose Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Scientology, etc. Any of those religions would represent my opinion. Opinions are typically based upon your personal preferences, your predisposed beliefs or just whatever meets your fancy.

However, it is not an opinion that caused me to be an atheist. It was a realization. I do not choose to believe in any of the religions offered because none provide any evidence that they are correct, nor are the claims for their gods logically possible. There is not a scientific explanation for why your god cannot exist, but merely a logical explanation. Science is used to describe nature and how we interact with it. The only value of science in this discussion is that discoveries showed that the claims about our nature made by religious leaders purporting to represent their gods are incorrect. In the most basic example, we can demonstrate with our scientific discoveries that the common Christian claims that this planet is only about 6,000 years old are false.

The user manual for each of these religions provides nothing even remotely logical -- not to mention scientific -- yet there have been published many rational, logical explanations for why the gods depicted by all of these religions cannot exist. Or, at the very best, if they once existed they no longer do. An excellent example is The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

It's interesting that you are targeting Christians ... Might I ask why ?

The website was created by an American, and in America religious thoughts, theologies and associations are most often Christian. I am not sure if you are an American, but site statistics show that you most likely are. Regardless of your origin, you should ask yourself a very important question: Why do you identify as a Christian? Did you examine every other religion in the world and determine that Christianity best represents your world view? Or, are you surrounded by Christians and just decided to go with the flow? Did you just conclude that since everyone around you is a Christian that these people must be right?

What about a 15-year-old growing up in Saudi Arabia? That 15yo will become a Muslim because everyone else around him/her is also a Muslim. Of what other religions will that 15-year-old see or know? Probably none.

What other religions have you experienced at age 15?

You ask .. Why does God not listen to your prayers .. Or why does he not act .. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but Christian teaching is that of hears every prayer .. He may not choose to act because he works in mysterious ways .. but he does act and he does SPEAK to Christians every day .. He has put on my heart to end this email ...

"He" hasn't put any heart into my response to you. I am responding to you completely of my own volition and kindness.

Yes, Christian apologetics say that god will chose which prayers he will respond to and which ones he won't. This means that your god is a god with personal volition (much like you are a human being with personal volition). This is a very important point in understanding how god is illogical. The cycle of pray, wait and miraculous response, logically demonstrates that god has already pre-planned everything and what you do (or don't do). It requires the absence of personal volition, yet you imbue your god with volition because you recognize that you have volition. Yet, if god knows all, god cannot have volition. It is impossible to be all-knowing and then decide to do something differently. This conundrum is critical to understanding why there are people who do not follow your faith, nor many of the other faiths that are available.

Worse, it is a very good way to show that the god you are worshipping is not fair or just. A prayer that goes unanswered means that your god is ignoring you; there is no other alternative. What kind of evil is it to have a god that supposedly created you and holds you in high regard and then proceeds to ignore you? Still, even worse is examining the prayers that you believe your god did answer. I'm sure you view answered prayers as those with positive outcomes. I'm sure that Osama bin Laden prayed that the planes would make it to the World Trade Center without interruption. Were his prayers answered? I'm sure he would think so. Why would a benevolent god answer positively to such a prayer?

I know the devil has a hold on your thoughts .. He had a hold on mine too... Ha had a hold on everyone's ... So that's why I want to help you and not mock you ...

The devil is no better defined than god. But you should consider who created the devil: god. If god created all, then god created anything that you identify as good and evil. Why would a god who is supposedly benevolent create something evil? To create evil or evil things and then promote yourself as the savior of mankind is evil in and of itself.

Of course, at 15-years-old, I cannot assume that you have had sufficient life experiences to recognize this. I hope it stays in the back of your mind so that you can recognize it at the appropriate time.

Just because something is hard to believe .. Doesn't mean it's not real ....

I agree. Just because the universe was not created by your god doesn't mean that the universe we have is any less real.

If you were told tomorrow that a collision between rocks created a whole world and humans and animals .. Would you believe it ... You might be confused that in fact I would .. Why couldn't God have caused it ??

Merely colliding rocks did not create the world we have nor the beings on it. That, however, is a very nicely simplified way of dismissing the larger reality of the processes that forged the sun, planets, and amino acids.

Might a god have caused it? Perhaps, but it is illogical to presume that that particular god has any current care or interaction with the universe it created. It most likely dropped this one at the very moment of creation for the purpose of creating dozens, hundreds or millions of others.

I would like the opportunity to answer some of your questions ... But please be kind to my belief in Christ as I hope I have been kind to you ..

Just to let you know ... whenever a Christian comes along and says but please be kind to my belief in Christ as I hope I have been kind to you is a code-phrase for please do not make me disbelieve in Christ because my sole purpose here is to make you believe in Him, not the other way around. I hope I am wrong in your case, but statistics show I'm not.

[Graybeard]

You think you live for no reason ..

Why do you think (a) you live (b) polio virus exists?