Yahweh and apologetics on conjoined twins?

[The Gawd]

I havent seen this addressed anywhere.

How many souls?
Why he would put a soul (or souls) into the body and not bother to fix the problem?
How does this reflect on intelligent design and the designer?
How does one get baptised and not the other?
If one is a believer and not the other, how does this coincide with the idea that jesus put (whatever they postulate that he puts) in their heart or brain (if shared)?
and other such questions....

[Anfauglir]

Supplemental......what if one is saved and the other is not.  What happens in the afterlife?

[Bluecolour]

I havent seen this addressed anywhere.

How many souls?
Why he would put a soul (or souls) into the body and not bother to fix the problem?
How does this reflect on intelligent design and the designer?
How does one get baptised and not the other?
If one is a believer and not the other, how does this coincide with the idea that jesus put (whatever they postulate that he puts) in their heart or brain (if shared)?
and other such questions....

>How many minds? 1=1, 2=2
>I personally don't think he puts anything into the body.
>I don't see why it should.
>This has nothing to do with their body.
>Once again, nothing to do with their body.

The fact we even say 'they' and not 'he' or 'it' should answer a lot of questions. If their condition doesn't confuse us why should it confuse an omniscient god. What personally gets me though is the cruel way that one has to die so the other might live, but i guess that's just a reflection of life in general.
Also a lot of Christians differentiate between the body, the spirit and the soul, which i think for questions like this warrants a looking into.

[The Gawd]

>How many minds? 1=1, 2=2

But the issue is that two people or parts of people ultimately SHARE one body. Question is still unanswered.

>I personally don't think he puts anything into the body.

Ah, but he must. I'm pretty sure other One True Christians postulate that he DOES infact insert a soul into the body, or else youre stuck with the notion that each cell in the body has its own soul. Then you run into problems of the souls when cells come together. Perhaps you could revisit your belief on souls.

>I don't see why it should.

So you dont see how conjoined twins designed that way would reflect on the designer? Perhaps buildings that collapse under their own weight dont reflect on their designer either... I doubt you feel that way, but perhaps Im wrong.

>This has nothing to do with their body.

Not sure I specified that this thread is about the body only. Can you point that out, then possibly address the question?

>Once again, nothing to do with their body.

See above.

The fact we even say 'they' and not 'he' or 'it' should answer a lot of questions. If their condition doesn't confuse us why should it confuse an omniscient god. What personally gets me though is the cruel way that one has to die so the other might live, but i guess that's just a reflection of life in general.
Also a lot of Christians differentiate between the body, the spirit and the soul, which i think for questions like this warrants a looking into.

Not sure I said your god was confused, I asked how the certain tenants of christianity deal with these issues. And I'm sorry, but a god that puts two people in one body is confused... at best. The bottom baseline is much more bleek. As for the cruelty of it all, you much start at the top with the designer that created the design. As for how humans deal with attempting to fix the faulty and neglegent design I dont have the scienific answers. I can however speculate on some issues that may arrise from not seperating them. Say they are left together and one dies, from a massive blow to the head, what do you do? A problem may be that no one has ever described or defined a soul, they simply assert it. Maybe we need your view on everything about the soul: What it is, where it is, when it comes into being, how two people with one body would somehow have two souls, etc.

[edited to fix some grammar and add questions of the soul]

[The Gawd]

One brain one soul, no?

[wheels5894]

Well this is an interesting question. Of course conjoined twins are, in fact, two separate zygotes that have fused during development. A result of this is that some parts of the body are shared. Pairs that are luck merely share a bit of breast bone, perhaps. Sadly, though, more often there may be only one gut or one liver and surgeons are stuck with deciding which child gets the organs and which is unlucky and dies. I think we would mostly agree that it is better to attempt a separation and have one live than let both die - a quite probably outcome as the body systems are strained if two bodies are relying on them. Yet I am not os sure this is a big problem for souls as souls are handed out to zygotes and not to babies.

No, the big problem with souls is identical twins - twins formed when the zygote divides and splits. In that case the two resultant babies are exactly alike in terms of genes but all started from one zygote and, as mentioned above, one soul.

So, how does the extra soul get into the mix?

[Bluecolour]

One brain one soul, no?

No. One mind, one soul. Two minds, two souls.

Once again the fact that two people[1] share one body says nothing about the state of their souls.[2]
If i was possessed by a devil there would in effect be two 'souls' inside my one body. It would not make me the same entity with it any more than two cars parked in the same garage makes them the same car. The twins are two different people. They know that and call each other sister, their mother recognized that and gave them different names. If one curses we wouldn't look at both and say 'bad girl', nor would we punish the other for the actions of the one. Why? Because they are not one, they are two. Two souls tied together in one body.

No, the big problem with souls is identical twins - twins formed when the zygote divides and splits. In that case the two resultant babies are exactly alike in terms of genes but all started from one zygote and, as mentioned above, one soul.

So, how does the extra soul get into the mix?

If the body is divisible then the soul is also divisible.
Eve is actually the first clone since she was made from the rib of Adam. Her flesh came from the flesh of Adam and her soul came from his soul.

1.	notice that we are in fact calling them two people
2.	my definition of the soul is different from yours. I don't believe in an immortal soul i believe in an immortal spirit. To prevent confusion i will address you using your own terms, therefore soul/spirit/ghost same thing

[wheels5894]

If the body is divisible then the soul is also divisible.
Eve is actually the first clone since she was made from the rib of Adam. Her flesh came from the flesh of Adam and her soul came from his soul.

how do we know this?

[Bluecolour]

^Are you asking as a Christian or as an atheist?

[The Gawd]

No. One mind, one soul. Two minds, two souls.

So youre saying that the mind is seperate from the brain? Thats interesting, do you have some sort of study to support that or is it just an assertion?

Once again the fact that two people[1] share one body says nothing about the state of their souls.[2]

1.	notice that we are in fact calling them two people
2.	my definition of the soul is different from yours. I don't believe in an immortal soul i believe in an immortal spirit. To prevent confusion i will address you using your own terms, therefore soul/spirit/ghost same thing

and what is a soul to you then? What is a spirit to you? How do they differ? How did you come about this knowledge?

If i was possessed by a devil there would in effect be two 'souls' inside my one body. It would not make me the same entity with it any more than two cars parked in the same garage makes them the same car.

What is a "devil"? where do they come from? How would you tell between a "devil" and your soul or spirit? How would you know this "devil" was in you? What tells you that you can have a "devil" and a soul and/or spirit in your body at the same time? If you had two cars parked in a one car garage I would be inclined to ask you how, especially if they were invisible cars with no evidence of their existence.

The twins are two different people. They know that and call each other sister, their mother recognized that and gave them different names. If one curses we wouldn't look at both and say 'bad girl', nor would we punish the other for the actions of the one. Why? Because they are not one, they are two. Two souls tied together in one body.

How would you ground one from TV and not the other? How would you give one a spanking and not the other?

Youre making a lot of assertions here. Where do you get this information on souls, spirits, and devils? We are privy to the same information, no? How can you have a personal definition of a soul/spirit that is not shared by other Christians?

[Anfauglir]

Supplemental......what if one is saved and the other is not.  What happens in the afterlife?

Hello Bluecolour.....what's your take on my question?

[wheels5894]

^Are you asking as a Christian or as an atheist?

neither. You are the one who said the soul would be split so, tell me, how do you know?

[Anfauglir]

^Are you asking as a Christian or as an atheist?

neither. You are the one who said the soul would be split so, tell me, how do you know?

I think what he meant is "are you asking as someone who will accept an answer on someone's say-so without evidence, or someone who requires that an answer be verifiable, especially on matters of potentially high importance"?

[wheels5894]

I am just wanting know how the poster got to this conclusion. Whether it will sound sensible or not is something I'll have to wait to hear.

one thing we do know, however, is that this is not going to be a biblical answer.

[Bluecolour]

^
Numbers 11:17  And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

Numbers 11:25  And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
John 20:22, Acts 8:17, 1 Corinthians 12:11, and everywhere else it said that a spirit was given or shared out.

Supplemental......what if one is saved and the other is not.  What happens in the afterlife?

Hello Bluecolour.....what's your take on my question?

Hello. Once again this has nothing, really nothing to do with their souls or being born again. Read my previous post about the two cars.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


THE GAWD

So youre saying that the mind is seperate from the brain? Thats interesting, do you have some sort of study to support that or is it just an assertion?

No, I'm simply saying that the twins are TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE!

How would you ground one from TV and not the other? How would you give one a spanking and not the other?

What did you imagine my answer to this statement would be, and how would it have related to this topic?

Youre making a lot of assertions here. Where do you get this information on souls, spirits, and devils? We are privy to the same information, no? How can you have a personal definition of a soul/spirit that is not shared by other Christians?

From verses like this:
Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 Corinthians 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Matthew 12:18  Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

And yes you are privy to the same information, I just don't think you were looking for an answer as much as you were looking for a reason to argue.

[wheels5894]

Numbers 11:17  And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

Numbers 11:25  And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
John 20:22, Acts 8:17, 1 Corinthians 12:11, and everywhere else it said that a spirit was given or shared out.

I take it, Bluecolour, that the above verses are intended to be the source of your claim that, for identical twins, the soul divides. If this is the case, then I don't think the verses really help at all. They are talking about the Holy Spirit which is given to all present. I don't know where you got the translation - I though it seemed  a bit odd and so I looked for the NIV which is usually fairly good. What I got was was from Bible Gateway

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

I think you will agree that is a lot clearer and, oddly, misses out the words in your version that suggest a spirit shared out. I don't think these verses help us with souls at all.

[Anfauglir]

Supplemental......what if one is saved and the other is not.  What happens in the afterlife?

Once again this has nothing, really nothing to do with their souls or being born again. Read my previous post about the two cars.

I take it you don't believe in bodily resurrection then?

[The Gawd]

No, I'm simply saying that the twins are TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE!

What did you imagine my answer to this statement would be, and how would it have related to this topic?

From verses like this:
Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 Corinthians 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Matthew 12:18  Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

And yes you are privy to the same information, I just don't think you were looking for an answer as much as you were looking for a reason to argue.

You didnt simply state they were two different people. You said, "two minds, two souls" and later clarified that the brain was different from the mind in the case of conjoined twins sharing a portion of the head AND brain.

As for my examples of grounding and spanking, they go to show that as much as you want to, in black and white, assert that these "people" (as opposed to person) sharing one body can easily be discrened between each other isnt exactly true... as my examples point out.

Your verses dont answer a single question that I asked in regards to your assertions. They, like you, make assertions with no definitions, descriptions, nor telling us how they work or what they do, etc.

So I ask again, where did you get your information on souls, demons, and spirits (and all my other questions from before)? And I wouldnt be able to "argue" as you put, if you would down my points or answer my questions to a satisfactory degree. If you cant answer those questions maybe you should re-assess your positioning.

[Bluecolour]

I think you will agree that is a lot clearer and, oddly, misses out the words in your version that suggest a spirit shared out. I don't think these verses help us with souls at all.

Were you expecting a verse that said 'and in identical twins the spirit is likewise shared'. The verses merely lend support to the claim i made: that the spirit is divisible (can be shared between more than one individual). I was trying to transfer this point as simply as was possible. If you want to go into the metaphysical explanation then yes, one spirit shared out among many people is still one spirit, Just like one cake shared out between seven people is still one cake.

Most movies portray spirits as entities that must leave one body in order to enter another. This is not the biblical depiction. If you try to understand the bible with that mental imagery then it won't make sense.
A spirit can pass from one person into another and still be in both. This is what i was demonstrating with the verses above. The Holy Ghost is less like Casper and more like the Ebola or the Common cold. The same goes for any ghost.
I mentioned that Eve was the first clone. Scientifically, if we are to believe the story, she was Adams twin. When Jehovah formed her He didn't have to make another spirit to put in her and He didn't have to breathe life into the new body He created. The life of the second was taken out of the first life, the spirit of the second out of the first spirit.
I'm just trying to get this across in the simplest way possible, please let me know at what points I'm not being clear. Also you might to have to describe what you personally imagine a human soul to be like if i am to understand your position.

Supplemental......what if one is saved and the other is not.  What happens in the afterlife?

Once again this has nothing, really nothing to do with their souls or being born again. Read my previous post about the two cars.

I take it you don't believe in bodily resurrection then?

I don't know enough to be sure on the matter. I suspect the people who believe would tell you that they come back with 'perfected bodies'. I however am very skeptical on this issue. Immediately someone mentions bodily resurrection to me this verse comes up in my head:
1 Corinthians 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God...
Even still i'm not sure. Do you have any personal views or experience on the matter? Also do you think that the belief in bodily resurrection is a fundamental part of Christianity?

Your verses dont answer a single question that I asked in regards to your assertions. They, like you, make assertions with no definitions, descriptions, nor telling us how they work or what they do, etc.

There is a reason i mentioned the soul/spirit thing in passing.

As for my examples of grounding and spanking, they go to show that as much as you want to, in black and white, assert that these "people" (as opposed to person) sharing one body can easily be discrened between each other isnt exactly true... as my examples point out.

Do YOU think of these twins as one person?
If you don't then you will likewise understand why i said that having a brain and having an individual mind are not the same thing.
If you actually do think these two girls are just one person and have no individual identity apart from one another, then we really don't have anything meaningful to discuss.

[wheels5894]

Sorry, Bluecolour, I really don't go with your bible verses which are more about the giving of the holy spirit and not about souls at all. I presume if god has been dishing out souls to zygotes, he has been doing so since the dawn of time so would not have started just at the time of Jesus.

Do YOU think of these twins as one person?
If you don't then you will likewise understand why i said that having a brain and having an individual mind are not the same thing.
If you actually do think these two girls are just one person and have no individual identity apart from one another, then we really don't have anything meaningful to discuss.

I do think that each of the girls is a separate person since they will have separate bodies (we hope) and a brain each. It is the brain which produces the person by the effect of the chemical and electrical activities which produces the mind - and immanent  property of the brain.

Where I differ is that I do not consider there is any soul or a god to hand them out due to lack of evidence of either.

[Bluecolour]

The first verse i put up was from the book of Numbers, way before the time of Christ. And you misunderstand me if you think i'm advocating the idea that God is 'handing souls out' to unborn fetuses.

Still i understand your argument for lack of evidence and i won't go any further with this. I do hope you find your evidence though.

[Graybeard]

I take it you don't believe in bodily resurrection then?

I don't know enough to be sure on the matter. I suspect the people who believe would tell you that they come back with 'perfected bodies'. I however am very skeptical on this issue. Immediately someone mentions bodily resurrection to me this verse comes up in my head:
1 Corinthians 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God...

Strange that you should have found that verse but not what the following verses say:

1Co:15:47: The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co:15:48: As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co:15:49: And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[your verse]1Co:15:50: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co:15:51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co:15:52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[Anfauglir]

I take it you don't believe in bodily resurrection then?

I don't know enough to be sure on the matter. I suspect the people who believe would tell you that they come back with 'perfected bodies'. I however am very skeptical on this issue. Immediately someone mentions bodily resurrection to me this verse comes up in my head:
1 Corinthians 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God...
Even still i'm not sure. Do you have any personal views or experience on the matter? Also do you think that the belief in bodily resurrection is a fundamental part of Christianity?

Greybeard has handled the scriptural cherry-picking, so I won't go there.  What I will say (in answer to your last point) is that its pointless for me to make assumptions about what any particular "Christian" believes, because I've heard so many conflicting answers from so many people who allegedly all follow the same holy book.

So it might be useful if you state exactly what you DO believe is the situation in the afterlife.  You seem sure that two souls housed in the same body can be independantly saved/punished....so what DOES happen to that saved soul in the afterlife? 

[The Gawd]

@blue

I believe we got sidetracked. The point was that your god apparrently puts souls in bodies at some point in the human making process. Depending on WHEN the soul is put into the body has many implications. Now, you have not stated when the soul enters the body, but when is VERY important and conjoined twins highlight this problem for those who believe in souls. Why? There has to be a point at which the soul is inserted into a "person" if not, the only explanation for your soul would be that each cell has a soul but no one that Ive heard of suggests this. Moving the time period back creates a situation where the soul inserter could hypothetically undo the conjoinedness of the the two zygotes. However the soul inserter does not do this. That, despite your disagreement, DOES in fact say something about the soul inserter, and it is not good.

If you dont think there is a soul inserter then you have the problem of how the soul gets there, because if it comes naturally then it is subject to our investigation, and we havent been able to identify this soul.

As for whether I consider conjoined twins one or two people, it depends on the situation. Do they pay for two airline seats if they take up only 1? If one gets punched in the belly, does the other feel it? Its not as cut and dry as you want to make it seem. Of course I consider each brain its own person or personality, but in the actual application or in reality there are circumstances where they will be considered one.

[Bluecolour]

back @ The Gawd
I didn't say that my God put souls in bodies. Never at any point in this or any other conversation did i once say that the persons soul was put in them by God or any other special process. So you when you start mentioning soul insertion and cells having souls i really have no idea what you are talking about.
If the twins are two different people then they are two different souls.
??????

[The Gawd]

But you have to account for the soul blue. You dont want to investigate that topic because it is problematic in the case of these twins. If there is a soul it has to come from somewhere. You dont believe that individual cells have souls so that means it is introduced to a body later which in turn means someone was neglegent in allowing these twins to proceed as is.

[wheels5894]

back @ The Gawd
I didn't say that my God put souls in bodies. Never at any point in this or any other conversation did i once say that the persons soul was put in them by God or any other special process. So you when you start mentioning soul insertion and cells having souls i really have no idea what you are talking about.
If the twins are two different people then they are two different souls.
??????

I wonder, BC, are we all at cross purposes here? I think people have an idea what a soul is but I'm not sure if you have the same idea. Could you give us a quick definition of the word 'soul' are you are using it, please?