Author Topic: Origins  (Read 2667 times)

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Offline Davedave

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Re: Origins
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2008, 11:31:02 AM »
Yeah, right....The cosmos has the attributes of God...

moG,

The cosmos has one leg up on God that I think is at least worth entering into the record here.  We all agree that we can experience its existence.  If something has to have the attribute of eternal existence, demonstrably existing right now is, to me, an important piece of information.

Offline PingTheServer

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Re: Origins
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2008, 11:03:52 PM »
For those that do not understand exactly what abiogenesis is:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhWds7djuWo
[/youtube]

You can also read about the Miller-Urey experiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-urey_experiment

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The experiment used water (H2O), methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3), and hydrogen (H2). The chemicals were all sealed inside a sterile array of glass tubes and flasks connected in a loop, with one flask half-full of liquid water and another flask containing a pair of electrodes. The liquid water was heated to induce evaporation, sparks were fired between the electrodes to simulate lightning through the atmosphere and water vapor, and then the atmosphere was cooled again so that the water could condense and trickle back into the first flask in a continuous cycle.

At the end of one week of continuous operation, Miller and Urey observed that as much as 10–15% of the carbon within the system was now in the form of organic compounds. Two percent of the carbon had formed amino acids that are used to make proteins in living cells, with glycine as the most abundant. Sugars, lipids, and some of the building blocks for nucleic acids were also formed.

Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: Origins
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2008, 08:45:39 AM »
^

DonExodus2 is my favorite biologist on YouTube.
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Offline moG

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Re: Origins
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2008, 12:37:31 AM »
For those that do not understand exactly what abiogenesis is:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhWds7djuWo
[/youtube]

You can also read about the Miller-Urey experiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-urey_experiment

Quote
The experiment used water (H2O), methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3), and hydrogen (H2). The chemicals were all sealed inside a sterile array of glass tubes and flasks connected in a loop, with one flask half-full of liquid water and another flask containing a pair of electrodes. The liquid water was heated to induce evaporation, sparks were fired between the electrodes to simulate lightning through the atmosphere and water vapor, and then the atmosphere was cooled again so that the water could condense and trickle back into the first flask in a continuous cycle.

At the end of one week of continuous operation, Miller and Urey observed that as much as 10–15% of the carbon within the system was now in the form of organic compounds. Two percent of the carbon had formed amino acids that are used to make proteins in living cells, with glycine as the most abundant. Sugars, lipids, and some of the building blocks for nucleic acids were also formed.

1)Are you presupposing that the primitive atmosphere contained no free oxygen?
Why?
2) So they had some organic soup...Ever seen a dead cat?
3) Even if you had all the blocks you still have to arrange them in the correct order.
4) Even if you had all the blocks and arranged them correctly there must be a preprogrammed sequence of operation.
5) Even if you had everything in 3 & 4 you still don't have the source of animation (life) as is made evident by the dead cat......
1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Origins
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2008, 04:40:46 AM »
1)Are you presupposing that the primitive atmosphere contained no free oxygen?
Why?

The notion that the prebiotic atmosphere contained little or no free oxygen is not a 'presupposition'.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB035_1.html

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2) So they had some organic soup...Ever seen a dead cat?

I am not sure what the relevance of this is.

Quote
3) Even if you had all the blocks you still have to arrange them in the correct order.

Are you presupposing that, at the level of basic self-replicating systems, there is only one "correct order"?

Quote
4) Even if you had all the blocks and arranged them correctly there must be a preprogrammed sequence of operation.

I'd put it to you that the 'preprogrammed sequence of operation' is already provided: it's called 'chemistry' and 'physics'.

Quote
5) Even if you had everything in 3 & 4 you still don't have the source of animation (life) as is made evident by the dead cat......

I'm not sure what the relevance of this is, either. If we're talking about abiogenesis, we are talking about simple self-replicating systems. We're not talking about anything nearly as complex as a modern cell, let alone a multicellular eukaryotic life-form with a complex set of organs that will cease to function when these organs fail. Even your dead cat is teeming with life: the cat may be dead, but entire colonies of decay bacteria are doing very well on the corpse, thank you.

I don't know what your idea of abiogenesis is, but it sounds more like you think of it as a sorcerer animating a golem than what scientists are actually suggesting, which is rather more mundane.
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Offline moG

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Re: Origins
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2008, 08:05:59 AM »
Quote
5) Even if you had everything in 3 & 4 you still don't have the source of animation (life) as is made evident by the dead cat......

Quote
I'm not sure what the relevance of this is, either. If we're talking about abiogenesis, we are talking about simple self-replicating systems.

If all you are talking about is simple self replicating systems as defining the term "life" according to the science of abiogenesis, then you clearly define life according to a parameter which is alien to the parameter    of the definition of life that I hold to be the truth.Included in your parameter are such things as computer programs and self replicating robots.

don't have time to finish... will be back later
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Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Origins
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2008, 08:15:29 AM »
Quote
5) Even if you had everything in 3 & 4 you still don't have the source of animation (life) as is made evident by the dead cat......

Quote
I'm not sure what the relevance of this is, either. If we're talking about abiogenesis, we are talking about simple self-replicating systems.

If all you are talking about is simple self replicating systems as defining the term "life" according to the science of abiogenesis, then you clearly define life according to a parameter which is alien to the parameter    of the definition of life that I hold to be the truth.Included in your parameter are such things as computer programs and self replicating robots.

don't have time to finish... will be back later

That's not what I said. Let's try this again.

As far as abiogenesis is concerned, "life" isn't part of the process it attempts to describe, it is the result of it. Once you have life, abiogenesis is no longer relevant - it's done and dusted. The processes by which abiogenesis is achieved would, therefore, involve non-living material. The generation of simple self-replicating molecules is one such process that would be required in order for life to arise from non-living material, which is why I said that in talking about the processes involved in abiogenesis, we're talking about things like that. Northing so complex as a modern prokaryotic cell, let alone a cat! What we're talking about is, in a large part, organic chemistry and biochemistry. How we get from things like ammonia and methane and sulfur and iron to things like fatty acids, peptides, nucleotides, proteins and nucleic acids. Bilipid layers, vesicles, and so forth.

Once you have exchanges of gases and nutrients and by-products with an external environment, once you have growth, movement and reproduction, and responses to changes in the external environment, all contained within the same system - in other words, life* - then you're no longer in the field of abiogenesis, but rather you're into the field of living things - even if that living thing is a life-form far simpler than any extant life-form on this planet today. The field of abiogenesis sets out to explain how such characteristics could appear in nature.

Put it this way. Abiogenesis is in the realm of organic chemistry and biochemistry. Living things are in the realm of biology. Evolution is in the realm of biology - it's not in the realm of organic chemistry. Biochemistry straddles the two because it is essentially complex organic chemistry: it explains in detail how the processes within living cells work - and also may tentatively explain how they arose in the first place.

* Characteristics of life as stated by biologists: feeding, movement, growth, reproduction, respiration, excretion, response to stimuli.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 08:41:04 AM by Deus ex Machina »
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Offline moG

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Re: Origins
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2008, 11:00:01 AM »
Quote
That's not what I said. Let's try this again.

As far as abiogenesis is concerned, "life" isn't part of the process it attempts to describe, it is the result of it. Once you have life, abiogenesis is no longer relevant - it's done and dusted. The processes by which abiogenesis is achieved would, therefore, involve non-living material. The generation of simple self-replicating molecules is one such process that would be required in order for life to arise from non-living material, which is why I said that in talking about the processes involved in abiogenesis, we're talking about things like that. Northing so complex as a modern prokaryotic cell, let alone a cat! What we're talking about is, in a large part, organic chemistry and biochemistry. How we get from things like ammonia and methane and sulfur and iron to things like fatty acids, peptides, nucleotides, proteins and nucleic acids. Bilipid layers, vesicles, and so forth.

Once you have exchanges of gases and nutrients and by-products with an external environment, once you have growth, movement and reproduction, and responses to changes in the external environment, all contained within the same system - in other words, life* - then you're no longer in the field of abiogenesis, but rather you're into the field of living things - even if that living thing is a life-form far simpler than any extant life-form on this planet today. The field of abiogenesis sets out to explain how such characteristics could appear in nature.

Put it this way. Abiogenesis is in the realm of organic chemistry and biochemistry. Living things are in the realm of biology. Evolution is in the realm of biology - it's not in the realm of organic chemistry. Biochemistry straddles the two because it is essentially complex organic chemistry: it explains in detail how the processes within living cells work - and also may tentatively explain how they arose in the first place.

Very good explanation of your position.
I will get back to you on it...
1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Origins
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2008, 11:11:06 AM »
bm
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline moG

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Re: Origins
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2008, 11:15:59 AM »
bellicose misanthrope?
1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Origins
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2008, 11:18:20 AM »
bellicose misanthrope?

I wouldn't say that about you. The words ignorant and uneducated would have to be in there somewhere.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline moG

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Re: Origins
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2008, 11:25:47 AM »
Since no one is omniscient the terms "ignorant" and "uneducated" apply to everyone in some sense. : 8) 
1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Origins
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2008, 11:28:14 AM »
Since no one is omniscient the terms "ignorant" and "uneducated" apply to everyone in some sense. : 8) 

I'll plead guilty to that. I know sweet FA about the history of art or baseball, for instance.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Origins
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2008, 12:25:30 PM »
Since no one is omniscient the terms "ignorant" and "uneducated" apply to everyone in some sense. : 8) 

Agreed. But, about the same things one claims knowledge of?

That would be how I mean it.   

Not about your last few post across the board, though. It's like you took your meds all of a sudden.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline moG

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Re: Origins
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2008, 06:44:32 PM »
Yeah, right....The cosmos has the attributes of God...

moG,

The cosmos has one leg up on God that I think is at least worth entering into the record here.  We all agree that we can experience its existence.  If something has to have the attribute of eternal existence, demonstrably existing right now is, to me, an important piece of information.

I believe that God will reveal Himself to you.The greatest miracle that God works is the salvation of the unbeliever.I know that the Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth.

Gen 1 NKJV Bible
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

It also states that the present day heavens and earth will be destroyed.

Re 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

God will create a new heavens and earth.Rev 21:1-5
1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Davedave

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Re: Origins
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2008, 06:58:53 PM »


FLOP!!!!

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Origins
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2008, 06:59:37 PM »
Bwahahahahaha!!!
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.