Author Topic: A JW at my door.  (Read 1024 times)

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Offline Star Stuff

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A JW at my door.
« on: January 23, 2013, 10:05:53 PM »
I had an interesting, yet fully predictable experience today.  While outside my house on the street (watching the tree company work), I noticed two individuals with brief cases walking door to door.  I assumed that they were Jehovah Witnesses and would be coming to see me too.  So I went into my house and grabbed my copy of the book “The God Virus” by Darrel W. Ray, and went back out to the street.

As I continued to watch the tree-men, the two individuals pulled up in their car and one got out with case in hand.  We chatted briefly about the trees and such, and finally I asked the ~60 yr old guy, “What can I do for you?”  It turned out that I was correct in my assessment, as he went into his little JW speech about the bible, Jesus, end times, and the usual nonsense.

I asked him why he believed what the bible had to say about anything.  He mentioned the prophesies which had come true.  I asked him about the list of prophesies that didn’t come true, and about the claimed prophesies of other religions.  We went back & forth for a while, and I rolled the dice by suggesting that the only reason that he believed all this nonsense was that was born & raised as a JW.  I was correct, as he admitted that he had indeed been raised within this group since birth, and I tried to explain that that is the same reason that Hindus are Hindus, Muslims are Muslims, and Catholics are Catholics, etc.  He denied this and insisted that he had looked at the evidence.

Sensing this lie, and knowing how JWs are taught & trained to never look at or read any other material other than their own, I asked him a straight forward question.  I asked him how he would view a person (let’s call him “Trevor”) who held a particular wild belief (for example, that astrology is true and the best way to lead our lives), yet Trevor utterly refused to look at or consider any evidence that was to the contrary – how would he view Trevor?  The JW started to wriggle, so I brought him back (repeatedly) to the simple question.  I asked if he would view Trevor as being intellectually honest, or intellectually dishonest.  He continued to writhe and twist like a slippery eel.  After some time of this avoidance, I felt like I was going to have to put him into a head-lock and force the little weasel to answer the question, but I finally got him to agree that Trevor’s position was not a tenable or respectable one.

During our entire conversation, our JW friend kept looking at the end of the book which I had tucked under my arm with incredible interest.  He was very curious about it's presence.  I said that I was glad that he viewed our hypothetical friend Trevor as dishonest.  I then pulled out my book and offered it to him to read.  I said that he knew where I lived and that he could return it at any time.  He went into the fully predicted state of refusal to take it.  It was my hope that a light would go on in his brain and that he would see that he was doing the very thing which he just minutes ago agreed was untenable, but he just wagged his head and said that he didn’t need to read it, that he was convinced of his beliefs.

I found this to be utterly disgusting, and I felt a certain level of contempt for not only this individual, but the cult which had utterly pickled his mind.  I asked him why his beliefs were so delicate that they couldn’t stand a little critical inquiry.  He just wriggled more and began to walk back to his vehicle.  I was so angered by the level of dishonesty, that I said in a loud voice:  “You’re a coward!”



Just had to vent/share.


So does this level of intellectual dishonesty really piss you off as much as it does me? 






« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 10:26:02 PM by Star Stuff »
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Offline Nam

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2013, 10:12:39 PM »
It doesn't piss me off but I find it pathetic on his part since he's, basically, trying to give you a book to read yet he finds offensive that you're trying to give him a book to read.

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Offline desmodia

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2013, 10:15:29 PM »
Yes, it pisses me off, but it also makes me sad. So much of human behavior follows that pattern, whether it's religion we're talking about, or politics, or opinions about various ethnic groups or behavioral quirks. Mom/Dad do a good job of impressing our brains with deeply held beliefs that we take to be true, and far too often there's no critical thinking about it.

I admire your interaction with the JWs. Haven't had a religious visitation in a long time but am ready for it when it happens! I can only hope for Mormons...
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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2013, 10:15:42 PM »
It would piss me off, except it is actually pseudo-intellectual dishonesty. At best.

Most lifelong JW's have never learned enough to know anything. They drive me batty too but, more so than most believers, they are victims. Of victims. Who are victims of victims of victims, ad infinitum. Well, actually just back to 1879, when that version of christianity started. But you get the idea.

You did the right thing though. Latent memories of occasional thoughts may have been sparked. You may get a thank you note someday. I hope so.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline wright

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2013, 10:25:30 PM »
I'm not as pissed off as you, but that's because I didn't have to be there and experience such blatant hypocrisy first-hand. Like PP said, you may have planted a seed; they probably don't run into such strong assaults on their conditioned responses very often.
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Offline Nick

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2013, 10:29:42 PM »
If I tree falls in the neighborhood and a JW is not there to hear it...does it make a nosie?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2013, 10:45:50 PM »
Even if the JW was there, he wouldn't hear it. Being as it is the truth and all.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Traveler

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 11:49:37 PM »
I love the way you handled it, and there's a very real chance that your words will haunt him. Whether he'll break through his shell is unknown, but at least you tossed the seed. Brava!!!
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2013, 11:53:21 PM »
I have to say my experience with JW's was totally different. It could've been just the particular one I dealt with most, I dunno. But one of my closest friends growing up was a JW, I of course Methodist/Baptist and every now and then he'd try to get me to go to the Kingdom Hall... I may have gone once, cant remember.

Anyways he knew texts of their bible, my bible, and the Koran. What is so awesome about this though is I made my transition to atheism between 18-20 (about a decade ago)... This good JW friend of mine actually made his transition over the past few years and runs things past me to see if I agree. But I can generally get any extra biblical text from him... He's supposed to get me the apocrypha soon...

I have given him Karen Armstrong and Dawkins.

But he's the type of person that likes to actually know shit so my experience may be somewhat skewed. I always assumed JW's knew their texts at least.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 12:00:15 AM »
They're a tough nut to crack, because like I said, part of their "culture" is to avoid exposure to any other material.

There is hope though, as some do wake up:

http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/

http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/


(just Google ex JW)
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Offline Willie

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2013, 12:44:33 AM »
They're a tough nut to crack, because like I said, part of their "culture" is to avoid exposure to any other material.

There is hope though, as some do wake up:

http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/

http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/


(just Google ex JW)

I know two ex JW's. Both atheist.


Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2013, 01:51:28 AM »
I have a personal, let us say 'dislike' for JWs due to the fact that my 1st girlfriend... who was raised in this cult but was no longer a member of their church... said she would still refuse a life-saving blood transfusion due to her inability to shake off all of the BS she had been fed. I've had a particular disdain for them ever since.

I had my own run-in with two JWs around three years ago. Up until then, I would just not answer the door when they would come a'calling... but after just finishing reading David Mills' "Atheist Universe", I was feeling a bit cocky with seeing just how well I would be able to go toe-to-toe with them.

It was an older man in his 50's and his "padawan": a kid that looked no older than 18-19.

I started right off the bat stating that I was an atheist, and that I would make them a deal: they would get 5 minutes to give me their best sell, then I would get 5 minutes to explain my position that all religions were man-made mythologies.

David Mills' book almost point-by-point laid out every argument he made in "proving" that god exists and how to successfully counter each and every one. The highlight for myself was catching him misquoting the 2nd law of thermodynamics (he left out "in an isolated system" that entropy can only increase in our universe), and my reponding how there exists "open" systems within the universe (sun and the earth, for example) that allows for order and evolution to take place.

Long story short, the kid actually watched slack-jawed as I confidently and easily rebuked every one of his talking points and finished... just as Star Stuff... with my predicting that had he been born and raised in the Middle East to Islamic parents and surrounded by friends of similar faith, he would be on my porch right now praising Allah and handing out copies of the Koran instead of The Watchtower.

He finally stated that "We would just have to agree to disagree." before wishing me a good day and leaving. I had hoped that I was able to get that poor kid to at the very least not blindly accept what was being drilled in to his head, but somehow I doubt it.

(edited for grammar)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 01:54:23 AM by Disciple of Sagan »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2013, 04:48:36 AM »
.....JWs are taught & trained to never look at or read any other material other than their own.....

So does this level of intellectual dishonesty really piss you off as much as it does me?

Completely.  I simply can't grasp how anyone can claim to have made a reasoned choice when they have deliberately only looked at one side of an argument.

I can see that people do it through laziness, or ignorance, or indoctrination, and it makes me angrysad - but like you, I go angryangry when they try to portray that refusal to consider the other side as some kind of virtue.  It isn't - its stupidity of the worst kind, and thoroughly thoroughly dishonest.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2013, 05:41:32 AM »
I think the problem is that if one is raised in s JW household leaving the faith is a serious business as it is highly likely that all your family and friends will disown you at once. That would mean starting a brand new life away from them all. That is a tough call and a good reason why they don't do thinking.

We haven't see any sign of JWs of Mormons for a while now. I quite like it being peaceful. I suppose when the weather is more conducive to walking the streets some will be back though. Just in case, where can I find a list of unfulfilled prophecies from the bible?
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Offline Nick

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2013, 09:33:21 AM »
I don't know what is wrong.  I have been waiting for one forever.  I get the reading material stuck in my door which means they were there but I keep missing them.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2013, 09:44:48 AM »
I can see that people do it through laziness, or ignorance, or indoctrination, and it makes me angrysad - but like you, I go angryangry when they try to portray that refusal to consider the other side as some kind of virtue.  It isn't - its stupidity of the worst kind, and thoroughly thoroughly dishonest.

Yes.  And added to the dishonesty, Jws are the worst listeners I've ever met.  While I find that most people now-a-days (is now-a-days a word?) are terrible listeners, the JWs seem to have this down to an art form.  That too makes me angry.

Kinda funny when you think about it; the religionist engages in high levels of dishonesty, goal-post moving, lies, delusion, disregard for evidence, abandonment of logic, rational & critical thinking, and then not listening.....and they have the audacity to turn around and say"  "Why are you atheists so angry?"
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2013, 09:47:33 AM »
I think the problem is that if one is raised in s JW household leaving the faith is a serious business as it is highly likely that all your family and friends will disown you at once. That would mean starting a brand new life away from them all. That is a tough call and a good reason why they don't do thinking.

Yes, it's kinda like a "light" version of the punishment of death for apostacy in Islam.  These built-in tactics for keeping the flock together are pathetic and tissue-thin.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 10:04:51 AM by Star Stuff »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2013, 09:50:18 AM »
Kinda funny when you think about it; the religionist engages in high levels of dishonesty, goal-post moving, lies, delusion, disregard for evidence, abandonment of logic, rational & critical thinking, and then not listening.....and they have the audacity to turn around and say"  "Why are you atheists so angry?"

Or even better, when they ask why we're so closed-minded.   &)
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Offline Quesi

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2013, 09:54:23 AM »
Hoping nogodsforme comes to comment on this thread. 

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2013, 10:03:41 AM »
Or even better, when they ask why we're so closed-minded

I wish I could inject this video into everyone's brain who goes on about being "open minded".

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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2013, 11:34:36 AM »
Yes.  And added to the dishonesty, Jws are the worst listeners I've ever met.  While I find that most people now-a-days (is now-a-days a word?) are terrible listeners, the JWs seem to have this down to an art form.  That too makes me angry.

Kinda funny when you think about it; the religionist engages in high levels of dishonesty, goal-post moving, lies, delusion, disregard for evidence, abandonment of logic, rational & critical thinking, and then not listening.....and they have the audacity to turn around and say"  "Why are you atheists so angry?"

The guy I delt with did listen politely while I rebuked his arguments, but what cheezed me was the patronizing smile that was plastered on his face. I think he knew he had to keep up the charade of being calm in his convictions in front of the kid despite the fact that not once did he attempt to counter-argue any of my points or the facts provided to back them up.

I must admit to receiving a... ummmm... pleasant tingling sensation twixt my nethers from the encounter. I do declare that I look forward to receiving more gentlemen visitors in the future... :-*
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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2013, 12:35:29 PM »
They were at my door Saturday morning too.  Started talking about how loving god is for making
for making this world and saving us. I mentioned the starving kids and a loving god wouldn't let that happen.  It was our sin they said. blah blah.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 01:34:19 PM by bgb »
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2013, 12:40:54 PM »
They were at my door Saturday morning too.  Started talking about how loving god is for making
for making this world and saving us. Mentioned the starving kids and a loving god wouldn't let that happen.  It was our sin. blah blah.


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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2013, 01:01:21 PM »
Or even better, when they ask why we're so closed-minded

I wish I could inject this video into everyone's brain who goes on about being "open minded".



Ohhhh, why didn't you show that video to Wayne? thanks for sharing with the rest of us though.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2013, 01:01:55 PM »
Mentioned the starving kids and a loving god wouldn't let that happen.  It was our sin. blah blah.

Or to be more precise, it was Adam & Eve's sin the rest of humanity "inherited". Kinda like how if my grandfather was arrested for a crime, my father, myself and every one of my descendants 'till the end of time would be born a criminal. &)
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Offline Nick

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2013, 01:25:05 PM »
So the whole Earth is one big penal colony because of Adam ane Eve.  Damn, why did Adam leave his 1st wife, Lillith?  Bet she would not have eaten the apple.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 01:29:27 PM by Nick »
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Re: A JW at my door.
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2013, 01:30:05 PM »
Mentioned the starving kids and a loving god wouldn't let that happen.  It was our sin. blah blah.

Or to be more precise, it was Adam & Eve's sin the rest of humanity "inherited". Kinda like how if my grandfather was arrested for a crime, my father, myself and every one of my descendants 'till the end of time would be born a criminal. &)

That is literally the way they do it in North Korea. If you are convicted of a crime, you, your children and your grandchildren are all destined to go to jail. If your sentence is life, so is theirs. Granted, it isn't forever like god, but the theme is similar.

Don't tell the right wingers in America. They hate it when someone else does it even better then them.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.