Noah built a space ark...

[BibleStudent]

And that also raises no questions for you?

We all have questions that cannot be answered with respect to our beliefs, but that doesn't mean we should simply abandon them because of it.

[pianodwarf]

The point is that these individuals knew, with 100% certainty, that there existed a being who was both omniscient and omnipotent (that is, Yahweh).  It's rather difficult to imagine these individuals rebelling against someone that they know they cannot defeat or even harm in the slightest.

Who's to say they know with 100% certainty?

How could they not?  Yahweh is supposed to be the creator of everything that exists, including the ones who were supposedly contemplating rebellion.  For the rebels not to be certain about the situation they were in would be like Stephen Hawking thinking that he could win a fistfight with Mike Tyson.  Hawking would never think such a thing; it would, indeed, be so obvious to him that it would simply never even occur to him to think about it.

Perhaps Satan believed he could overpower God.

Perhaps Hawking believed he could overpower Tyson.  (See how ridiculous the analogy is?)

There could be any of a hundred reasons Satan made the decision he did.

The only ones I can think of, within the framework of the mythology, are either that Satan is indescribably stupid, or he is extremely mentally ill (that is, completely out of touch with reality).  Nothing else makes sense to me.

I really don't see this as detrimental to the Christian belief.

Obviously, or you wouldn't be a Christian.

[BibleStudent]

It's getting hard to take you seriously.

How many questions do you see in the quote box citing you? I only see one. That's the one I'm referring to, the one in the quote box that cites your question.

You're not following the conversation correctly. My first post asked what the point of the initial comment about Satan's rebellion was. I never posited that I had THE answer nor even implied it. At best, I offered speculation as to what the circumstances were and that was rather clear. No one has yet offered a good reason for giving any weight to the comments made in the last paragraph of post #3.

[BibleStudent]

The point is that these individuals knew, with 100% certainty, that there existed a being who was both omniscient and omnipotent (that is, Yahweh).  It's rather difficult to imagine these individuals rebelling against someone that they know they cannot defeat or even harm in the slightest.

Who's to say they know with 100% certainty?

How could they not?  Yahweh is supposed to be the creator of everything that exists, including the ones who were supposedly contemplating rebellion.  For the rebels not to be certain about the situation they were in would be like Stephen Hawking thinking that he could win a fistfight with Mike Tyson.  Hawking would never think such a thing; it would, indeed, be so obvious to him that it would simply never even occur to him to think about it.

Your analogy actually makes a very good argument for the speculation I offered. Using your thought process, it would seem to make more sense that they did not know they were incapable of over powering God. I am puzzled as to why you are so convinced they had to know they were defeated before they rebelled. What specifically compels you to believe they had to know this?

[pianodwarf]

Using your thought process, it would seem to make more sense that they did not know they were incapable of over powering God. I am puzzled as to why you are so convinced they had to know they were defeated before they rebelled. What specifically compels you to believe they had to know this?

They knew Yahweh was omnipotent.  That being the case, the thought of rebellion should never have even entered their minds, anymore than it would enter your mind to visit the wreck of the Titanic by swimming to the bottom of the ocean.  Such a course of action is so completely and utterly impossible that you would, quite literally, never even think of it.  Unless, as I said, you were extremely mentally ill.

[BibleStudent]

They knew Yahweh was omnipotent. 

Why do you continue to insist on this without explaining why you are so certain that "they knew?" Why is not possible that they were unaware of God's omnipotence?

[pianodwarf]

They knew Yahweh was omnipotent. 

Why do you continue to insist on this without explaining why you are so certain that "they knew?" Why is not possible that they were unaware of God's omnipotence?

What makes you think that it was possible they were unaware of it?  After all, it's blindingly obvious to you, a mere mortal.  So much so that it probably never even occurs to you to wonder whether there is anything Yahweh can't do.

[BibleStudent]

What makes you think that it was possible they were unaware of it?  After all, it's blindingly obvious to you, a mere mortal.  So much so that it probably never even occurs to you to wonder whether there is anything Yahweh can't do.

Should I take that to mean you have no answer to the question I asked?

[Nam]

BibleStudent,

You can't be this stupid. Or perhaps you can. The only one making sense to you is you. Which is sad, and a bit pathetic. I mean, here we have angels who, seemingly, have been with god for countless years yet they seem to have less information than humans do.

Idiotic.

-Nam

[Disciple of Sagan]

This is also something that has irked me when they talk about how wonderful and all-powerful their god is. One inconvenient truth they love to ignore is that... according to their own mythology... even 1/3 of the heavenly host were able to be persueded by god's second-in-command to rebel against him. And they... unlike us poor humans who are supposed to rely on only faith... had undeniable proof of his existance.

I'm curious as to what you are getting at here. I'm not sure I understand the point you are making with this. Thanks !!

Hey, BibleStudent. While others in my absence have already answered your question more succinctly than perhaps I can manage at the moment (just got home from work... 1:30 am here... and already feeling a nice buzz from a shot of NyQuil), I'll give it a shot.

In a nutshell, I find it difficult to reconcile the notion of a supreme, perfect creator deserving of both adoration and worship when right from the get-go, your god was being disobeyed by and rebelled against by his own creations, (i.e. lucifer/satan, 1/3 of the angels and Adam and Eve who... just as myself, pianodwarf and others have stated... had direct evidence of god and his omnipotence. He created the whole universe and everything in it after all).

From a purely psychological point of view, these previously-mentioned entities... and every other human being who had direct knowledge of god's existance and what he commanded of them (remember, in the OT he was constantly interfering in human affairs)... would have to be insane or suicidal to risk his divine wrath. It just doesn't make sense. Add the "fact" that 99.999999% of the world population was so "wicked"... even after being given a warning to repent... that god felt the need to commit genocide either points to 1) the ultimate mental disconnect in our species' history for ignoring the blatantly "obvious" (i.e. god's existance and omnipotence), 2) your god was never as wonderful or worthy of worship as your bible led you to believe, or 3) it's all nothing more than mythology.

Hope this clarifies things. Have a good night.

[pianodwarf]

Should I take that to mean you have no answer to the question I asked?

I've already given you one: it's common knowledge that Yahweh is omnimax.  To suggest that Satan and all of his followers did not know that is simply silly at best and disingenuous at worst.  I'm not sure which one you're being right now.

[Jag]

You're not following the conversation correctly.

No BibleStudent, that's not at all how I see it.

What I DO see is that you are establishing a pattern: I ask you a question, you respond with a question WITHOUT answering what I asked you; I answer your new question, followed by asking the initial question again; you still avoid answering the initial question - see our exchanges in the "Why I raised my kids without God" thread for an example what I'm referring to, or just look at your posts in this thread. In case you are unclear on how conversations work, let me tell you now, we're not having one. The behavior I describe looks like it applies to every person with whom you're engaging.

I'm asking you very clear and simple questions, you're pretending that you don't understand, and I'm not taking you seriously anymore. If you can't engage with the least little shred of authenticity, why bother even posting?

And to be clear, obvious, and fair: I don't expect or want an answer to that last question. In case you're confused by that simple statement - I'm saying I'm not actually interested in why you bother posting, so don't waste any time or energy posting a non-answer or asking for clarity, because I've lost all interest in trying to engage with you on any level of intellectual honesty - you seem only interested in dodging, and we already have Wayne for that. I sincerely hope that's clear enough for you to understand.