Author Topic: Noah built a space ark...  (Read 1571 times)

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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Noah built a space ark...
« on: January 17, 2013, 03:48:45 PM »
...And David killed Goliath with a ray gun.

According to Ken Ham (president and founder of aig):
Quote
Many of the ancient people listed in the Bible’s genealogies lived very long lives.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2009/01/20/ancient-patriarchs-in-genesis.

There's even a chart listing the ages of the biblical patriarchs, who all lived on average (pre-flood) 900 years or so.

This got me to thinking... look at all of the great thinkers of the ancient world: Aristotle... Archimedes... Hippocrates... Ptolemy just to name a few, and the world-changing ideas and inventions they came up with during their realitively "normal" lifespans. Just imagine what they could have accomplished had they been "blessed" with even another 100-200 years of life!

So, it stands to reason that between Adam and his long-lived decendants, the collective wisdom and knowledge bequeathed from father to son over the centuries should have produced at least one world-changing contraption, right? Right??

In fact, I bet that given any invention would have been so technologically advanced that it would have appeared indistinguishable from magic to the locals! Oooops... did I say magic...? I meant miracles!

It all makes perfect sense now... there is no conflict between the religion and science!! Forget trying to prove the Shroud of Turin is real or not... what we should really be putting our efforts in to is finding the bacta tank Jesus was put in to heal his wounds after the crusifiction... I mean, crusifixion!
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2013, 07:01:22 AM »
Something similar occured to me only this morning. Why Exodus? The Ancient Hebrew were never IN Egypt ... so why make up a story set in Egypt?
Cause Egypt was the biggest baddest kid on the playground at that time.
"Our god beat the shit out of the Egyptians!" sounds a hell of a lot more impressive that "Yeah, Yahweh beat up the Arabs"[1]

But, hang on, if the Hebrew were god's chosen people ... why did the Egyptians have such a massive technological lead over them? And this ... without the help of any gods of their own. In fact, the Hebrew were literally surrounded by more advanced civilizations.
A bit of Prometheus' story shining through there? "If I make them too smart, they won't need me anymore. Then what will I do for laughs?! Better keep them dumb and subservient" ... which is, of course, an attitude we don't see ANYWHERE in modern day christianity ... *sigh*
 1. who, at the time were a tiny tribe, still pretty much in the stoneage
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2013, 10:06:35 AM »
Something similar occured to me only this morning. Why Exodus? The Ancient Hebrew were never IN Egypt ... so why make up a story set in Egypt?
Cause Egypt was the biggest baddest kid on the playground at that time.
"Our god beat the shit out of the Egyptians!" sounds a hell of a lot more impressive that "Yeah, Yahweh beat up the Arabs"[1]

But, hang on, if the Hebrew were god's chosen people ... why did the Egyptians have such a massive technological lead over them? And this ... without the help of any gods of their own. In fact, the Hebrew were literally surrounded by more advanced civilizations.
A bit of Prometheus' story shining through there? "If I make them too smart, they won't need me anymore. Then what will I do for laughs?! Better keep them dumb and subservient" ... which is, of course, an attitude we don't see ANYWHERE in modern day christianity ... *sigh*
 1. who, at the time were a tiny tribe, still pretty much in the stoneage

But the bible confirms that they (Egyptians and everyone else) had Gods that were equally as likely as Yahweh... at least until the alter lighting test that Christians will avoid at all costs today. To be sure, even Yahwehs own chosen people seemed to be continually unimpressed by Yahweh's power as they always seemed to go back to worshipping other gods. Which suggests that Yahweh was, in their minds, only as real as the other gods they were aware of. All of which the world pretty much accepts as not real.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2013, 12:21:42 PM »
But, hang on, if the Hebrew were god's chosen people ... why did the Egyptians have such a massive technological lead over them?

Except when it came to petrochemicals... y'know, lamp oil that last 7 days longer than other brand name competitors. ;)

Although I was being tongue-in-cheek with my op, you hit upon the point I was trying to make. By all accounts, the Hebrews had at least the opportunity to be the most technologically advanced society of that era. Of course, the xians would probably counter with something along the lines of "They were single-mindedly focused on spiritual matters, and god provided everything they needed to flourish" or such similar rubbish.

I actual read on another xian site that it was Noah's sons who built at least one of the great pyramids in Egypt as a place to store and preserve all of their history and knowlege in preparation of the flood. The other pyramids were just copies built long afterwards by the Egyptians. Ugh. 
&)

But the bible confirms that they (Egyptians and everyone else) had Gods that were equally as likely as Yahweh... at least until the alter lighting test that Christians will avoid at all costs today. To be sure, even Yahwehs own chosen people seemed to be continually unimpressed by Yahweh's power as they always seemed to go back to worshipping other gods. Which suggests that Yahweh was, in their minds, only as real as the other gods they were aware of. All of which the world pretty much accepts as not real.


This is also something that has irked me when they talk about how wonderful and all-powerful their god is. One inconvenient truth they love to ignore is that... according to their own mythology... even 1/3 of the heavenly host were able to be persueded by god's second-in-command to rebel against him. And they... unlike us poor humans who are supposed to rely on only faith... had undeniable proof of his existance.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2013, 12:36:52 PM »
Of course, the xians would probably counter with something along the lines of "They were single-mindedly focused on spiritual matters, and god provided everything they needed to flourish" or such similar rubbish.

Turns out that partnering with yhwh isn't a very good long term political/ economic strategy.  Since, you know, pretty much everyone in the middle east beat the shit out of the hebrews at one point or another and the Romans actually evicted them.

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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2013, 12:47:45 PM »
Turns out that partnering with yhwh isn't a very good long term political/ economic strategy.  Since, you know, pretty much everyone in the middle east beat the shit out of the hebrews at one point or another and the Romans actually evicted them.

And to add insult to injury, the Romans called them atheists to boot fot not believing in their gods.

I guess persecution helps build moral fiber in the eyes of the lord. &)
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2013, 12:58:19 PM »
Turns out that partnering with yhwh isn't a very good long term political/ economic strategy.  Since, you know, pretty much everyone in the middle east beat the shit out of the hebrews at one point or another and the Romans actually evicted them.

And to add insult to injury, the Romans called them atheists to boot fot not believing in their gods.

I guess persecution helps build moral fiber in the eyes of the lord. &)

Im pretty sure theres a verse talking about "Blessed is he who is persecuted" so when you point out these delusions it just confirms their beleifs. Sad part is they cant see through such a simple ploy to get them not to challenge themselves. It makes me cry inside  :'(

Offline Jag

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 01:51:26 PM »
This is also something that has irked me when they talk about how wonderful and all-powerful their god is. One inconvenient truth they love to ignore is that... according to their own mythology... even 1/3 of the heavenly host were able to be persueded by god's second-in-command to rebel against him. And they... unlike us poor humans who are supposed to rely on only faith... had undeniable proof of his existance.

This is an excellent point, and one I've never used. I'm stealing this and using it every chance I get - I'm not worried about the whole "sin" nonsense, but I DO promise to credit you when I use it.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 02:57:36 PM »
This is also something that has irked me when they talk about how wonderful and all-powerful their god is. One inconvenient truth they love to ignore is that... according to their own mythology... even 1/3 of the heavenly host were able to be persueded by god's second-in-command to rebel against him. And they... unlike us poor humans who are supposed to rely on only faith... had undeniable proof of his existance.

I'm curious as to what you are getting at here. I'm not sure I understand the point you are making with this. Thanks !!

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 03:01:08 PM »
I'm curious as to what you are getting at here. I'm not sure I understand the point you are making with this. Thanks !!

The point is that these individuals knew, with 100% certainty, that there existed a being who was both omniscient and omnipotent (that is, Yahweh).  It's rather difficult to imagine these individuals rebelling against someone that they know they cannot defeat or even harm in the slightest.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 03:07:01 PM »
This is also something that has irked me when they talk about how wonderful and all-powerful their god is. One inconvenient truth they love to ignore is that... according to their own mythology... even 1/3 of the heavenly host were able to be persueded by god's second-in-command to rebel against him. And they... unlike us poor humans who are supposed to rely on only faith... had undeniable proof of his existance.

I've asked the same question for some time. If Lucifer, who had direct knowledge of god, rebelled, how good is god at being perfect? If beings with direct knowledge of his existence can't stand the guy, why are some humans surprised when other humans say no?

Apparently even Lucifer knew that neither he nor god were real!
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 04:59:10 PM »
But is the "fall" of Lucifer actually even in the bible? I dont remember reading it, but do remember reading that it was actually in one of the books they voted out. This argument used to be my favorite one to use, but its like killing ants with a sledgehammer... kinda like the drinking poison verse.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 05:44:33 PM »
The point is that these individuals knew, with 100% certainty, that there existed a being who was both omniscient and omnipotent (that is, Yahweh).  It's rather difficult to imagine these individuals rebelling against someone that they know they cannot defeat or even harm in the slightest.

Who's to say they know with 100% certainty?  Perhaps Satan believed he could overpower God. There could be any of a hundred reasons Satan made the decision he did.

I really don't see this as detrimental to the Christian belief.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 05:58:46 PM »

Who's to say they know with 100% certainty?  Perhaps Satan believed he could overpower God. There could be any of a hundred reasons Satan made the decision he did.

I really don't see this as detrimental to the Christian belief.

Well, I suppose it is problem that angels have a religion based on an unseen lord too. Wouldn't be christian though. They're not going to die.

Wonder what incentivises them to believe? Bigger wings? Longer robes?
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2013, 06:13:05 PM »
The point is that these individuals knew, with 100% certainty, that there existed a being who was both omniscient and omnipotent (that is, Yahweh).  It's rather difficult to imagine these individuals rebelling against someone that they know they cannot defeat or even harm in the slightest.

Who's to say they know with 100% certainty?  Perhaps Satan believed he could overpower God. There could be any of a hundred reasons Satan made the decision he did.

I really don't see this as detrimental to the Christian belief.
Really? This is silly at this point. The angels that had been chillin with Yahweh for all eternity either werent certain that he existed or that he was "omnimax" not to mention their very being qustions christian beliefs but none of this is a concern or inconsistant with your belief system? Is there nothing you wont overlook to stay a slave to this pitiful religion?

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2013, 06:19:11 PM »
Really? This is silly at this point. The angels that had been chillin with Yahweh for all eternity either werent certain that he existed or that he was "omnimax" not to mention their very being qustions christian beliefs but none of this is a concern or inconsistant with your belief system? Is there nothing you wont overlook to stay a slave to this pitiful religion?

What?? Except for the last question you asked, this makes no sense.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2013, 06:21:25 PM »
Well, I suppose it is problem that angels have a religion based on an unseen lord too. Wouldn't be christian though. They're not going to die.

Wonder what incentivises them to believe? Bigger wings? Longer robes?

Neither does this. What are you talking about?

Offline Jag

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2013, 06:23:00 PM »
The point is that these individuals knew, with 100% certainty, that there existed a being who was both omniscient and omnipotent (that is, Yahweh).  It's rather difficult to imagine these individuals rebelling against someone that they know they cannot defeat or even harm in the slightest.

Who's to say they know with 100% certainty?  Perhaps Satan believed he could overpower God. There could be any of a hundred reasons Satan made the decision he did.

I really don't see this as detrimental to the Christian belief.

With what can only be described as direct empirical evidence of the existence and power of the lord god almighty, they chose to rebel against him - and upon hearing this asked, you respond with that? Seriously? You don't need any time at all to think about it? You just rejected it out of hand with what amounts to"we can't know for sure what the angels, existing entirely in the presence of GOD, and witness to countless godly acts from literal creation forward, did or didn't know about him."

I find myself a bit disappointed - I was hoping for better from you.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2013, 06:28:26 PM »
Really? This is silly at this point. The angels that had been chillin with Yahweh for all eternity either werent certain that he existed or that he was "omnimax" not to mention their very being qustions christian beliefs but none of this is a concern or inconsistant with your belief system? Is there nothing you wont overlook to stay a slave to this pitiful religion?

What?? Except for the last question you asked, this makes no sense.
LOL

Sure... You suggested that perhaps the "angels" did not know that either "Yahweh" existed OR that they did not know he was omnimax, and thus they rebelled. Yet these "angels" had been with Yahweh for all eternity. The suggestion shows that you will sink to unknown depths and absurdities to protect this nonsense. Not only that, the idea that youre suggesting again shows your god's imperfect and pretty pitiful track record for creation. If he existed he'd be the Mr. Magoo of creators... but of course youll come up with some excuse for such an obviously worthless diety (if he existed as his sheep describe him).

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2013, 06:30:58 PM »
I find myself a bit disappointed - I was hoping for better from you.

What were you hoping I would say?

Are you suggesting that you have answers to all of the questions that would validate your worldview?....because that is what I am inferring you expect from me.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2013, 06:33:24 PM »
Sure... You suggested that perhaps the "angels" did not know that either "Yahweh" existed OR that they did not know he was omnimax, and thus they rebelled.

Where did I suggest that the angels did not know God existed?? You need to go back in the thread to the post where the "100%" first came into the conversation because you are incorrectly following the conversation.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:35:07 PM by BibleStudent »

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2013, 06:46:37 PM »
No, you need to read again. You did not specify what the angels may not have been certain about, but that doesnt even matter because in either case your comment is absurd and embarrassing.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2013, 06:47:38 PM »
No, you need to read again. You did not specify what the angels may not have been certain about, but that doesnt even matter because in either case your comment is absurd and embarrassing.

&)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:49:12 PM by BibleStudent »

Offline Jag

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2013, 06:49:31 PM »
I find myself a bit disappointed - I was hoping for better from you.

What were you hoping I would say?

Are you suggesting that you have answers to all of the questions that would validate your worldview?....because that is what I am inferring you expect from me.

That's the danger in reading too much into a simple statement isn't it?

Perhaps I should withdraw the word hoping from my statement; it may have been misleading. In truth, I'm not sure that I could say I had any expectation of what you would say - I had no idea that you were going to participate in this thread. I was disappointed in the abrupt dismissal of your response I guess - it appeared to be pretty off-the-cuff, and shallow. Based on the posts of yours I've read so far, I'm disappointed that you were so dismissive in your reply, and in the follow up posts that you appear to be deliberately misunderstanding - maybe I'm not being fair to you, but that was my honest reaction.

I was hoping for a little more depth, for lack of a better descriptive word. No, I certainly DON'T possess all the answers to any question that could potentially challenge my world view, and I admit it freely. I even welcome the questions! The day I decide I know enough, much less ALL, is the day I sincerely hope my loved ones end my life, because I will have sunk so deep into dementia, there would be no hope of me ever returning.

Edited to add: I realized after posting that you didn't say "challenge" my world view, you said "validate". My answer may not be pertinent if I misunderstood what you were saying.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:55:48 PM by Jag »
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Offline Jag

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2013, 06:53:34 PM »
Are you suggesting that you have answers to all of the questions that would validate your worldview?....because that is what I am inferring you expect from me.

If you didn't think you had an answer, then why did you post one? Now I'm actually a bit confused - can you clarify your question please?
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Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2013, 06:54:53 PM »
I find myself a bit disappointed - I was hoping for better from you.

What were you hoping I would say?

Are you suggesting that you have answers to all of the questions that would validate your worldview?....because that is what I am inferring you expect from me.

I was hoping for a little more depth, for lack of a better descriptive word.

The Bible offers very little information about what the circumstances were or what specifically motivated Satan to rebel.

Offline Jag

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2013, 06:57:02 PM »
And that also raises no questions for you?
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Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2013, 06:57:41 PM »
Are you suggesting that you have answers to all of the questions that would validate your worldview?....because that is what I am inferring you expect from me.

If you didn't think you had an answer, then why did you post one? Now I'm actually a bit confused - can you clarify your question please?

Which question are you referring to?

Offline Jag

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Re: Noah built a space ark...
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2013, 07:01:05 PM »
It's getting hard to take you seriously.

How many questions do you see in the quote box citing you? I only see one. That's the one I'm referring to, the one in the quote box that cites your question.
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