Author Topic: Male abortion rights?  (Read 2541 times)

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Offline The Gawd

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Male abortion rights?
« on: January 13, 2013, 02:28:29 PM »
Ive never seen this topic discussed except when I brought it up once on another forum. The idea wasnt met with open arms to say the least. However, since my degree is in politics and government, I always wondered how a potential father's right to an abortion could play out.

But my argument is;
If a woman can, for whatever reason, decide that she is not ready to be a mother, should a man also not have the same right? Or does the argument hinge soley on what a woman can do w/ her own body? This decision over to go through with a pregnancy or not gives a woman significant power over the (potential) "father" as well here in the states at least (Im dont have a clue how child support is in other countried).

What do you say WWGHA?

Offline Nam

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2013, 02:32:29 PM »
If they are married, I don't know. I think I would be on the fence. But not married: her decision.

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2013, 02:35:09 PM »
If they are married, I don't know. I think I would be on the fence. But not married: her decision.

-Nam
But is there not an argument for at least aborting the "parental responsibility" then?

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2013, 02:36:57 PM »
BM
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Offline Nam

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2013, 02:43:47 PM »
I have never been a potential parent, nor a parent. So, unless placed in that situation I don't think I could properly answer such a question. What I think now (if anything) would be irrelevant to what I would think then.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2013, 03:18:48 PM »
This is what is known as a slippery slope. And I speak with at least a little expertise, since both of my children were born out of what was once popularly called "wedlock". And I wasn't planning on being a father in either case. One child was born in 1979, the other in 1990, hence I ended up paying child support for something like 31 years. (I thought it was 32, but it just seemed that long). 

The first mother and I were talking about getting married, and she had confided that she had, with previous boyfriends, been trying to get pregnant for years and had been unable to do so. I took that to mean that she had biological problems and that pregnancy was unlikely. I was, of course, quite naïve in such matters. She ended up pregnant, but we found out about it only after we had already broken up.  In that instance, she was being honest, I was being careless, and I don't think I would have had any right to request either an abortion or to try getting out of child support. Her intentions were clear, my participation was voluntary and I got careless. Plus, I broke up with her. She didn't leave me.

In the second case, the woman flat out lied to me about her use of birth control. However, I wouldn't have had any way to prove that, and again, I was a voluntary participant and I knew then as I know now that birth control, even when actually being used correctly, does not always work. And I had a bad lawyer. So I had little choice about paying support even though the kid was not my idea. And had I not, the child would have grown up in more poverty than I could have consciously allowed. Mommy was a lazy b___h. He still turned out okay. As did the first one.

On the other hand, a recent case where a woman somehow "stole" semen from her old boyfriend, impregnated herself with it and that sued for support is over the top. Another recent case was a sperm donor who ended up getting sued for support and loosing. Also over the top.

Which, to me, illustrates the range of issues that are faced, morally and socially and otherwise. It is nowhere near as cut and dried as the cases where the rapist sues for visitation rights, something that is allowed in 30 states. They often win, when in fact they should just be shot.

So the issue is a hard one to parse in the face of the various realities. Certainly a woman who does not want to have a child has the right to say no. But if the couple is married, even that is not a cut and dried issue, I don't imagine. I'll stay away from that. But in the cases where the woman wants a child and the man doesn't, and those facts are made clear prior to the pregnancy, the guy should have some legal options. Not to make termination mandatory, I still leave that up to the woman. But if it is documented that he was in it just for the fun, or the love, or whatever, and not for the offspring, and especially where duplicity was involved, there should at least be discussions such as this.

I'm too prejudiced to be on the jury, however.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2013, 03:48:21 PM »
Woman's choice.  It is her body.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2013, 04:11:58 PM »
@ ParkingPlaces

I certainly agree with your conclusion about it not being cut & dry. I too, dont think I (or anyone) should have a say in what ANYONE (man or woman) does with their body. Its just not my place.

I think it raises some ethical questions as well, as you stated the quality of life of the one child wouldve been bad due to the mother had you not had to be responsible. And my situation being similar although I didnt know I was a father until my daughter was 8 months old, I would not have chosen to abort my parental responsibility. However, if given 7-8 months advance notice cant say how I wouldve reacted.

Where I find difference with your post is where you state that you were a "willing participant," I am assuming she was as well and the fact remains that though you BOTH were willing participants yet she is the only one that gets to choose whether or not you both get to be parents. I'm trying to determine whether that is equal protection under the law.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2013, 04:21:52 PM »
The key isn't that she gets to decide whether or not to be a parent.

The key is that she gets to decide what's done with(in) her own body.

Men and women share this right.  Parenthood is a separate issue.
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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2013, 04:37:49 PM »
Gawd, I think it gets down to this. As several have pointed out. It is her body. If we are going to argue for the right when it fighting efforts to outlaw abortion, we have to agree that it is also the woman's right to decide when abortion and other options (adoption, etc) are also available. I don't think anyone would argue that the male involved should certainly have a right to be heard (assuming violence was not involved), but it is still her decision.

A married woman who agreed to have children with her husband and then wants to back out after getting pregnant might be walking the line, morally. But I guess it is still her decision. I wouldn't be surprised if  there were some state laws that say otherwise, though. I dunno.

The child support thing might be separate. But again, I have too many prejudices to be the one making that decision.
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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 01:12:35 AM »
my husband had to have me sign a permission for him to get a vasectomy..if i didn't want him to have one, they wouldn't have done it. i don't understand this logic, as it's HIS body, and HIS choice to have that done, but if i wasn't ok with it, he was just out of luck. lucky for him, i was excited about it and about getting to be in the room for the procedure! doc was a jokester and asked how much i wanted him to take off lol great day!

i took his opinions into consideration when we got pregnant, but ultimately it was my decision, because if he decided to leave, he could...i'm still left with our child. when men can say they'll be there 110% of the childs life as long as the child needs, then they can have a say, but when so many women are left with the children, and it's the woman's body this takes place in, men should just keep quiet about it lol

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 02:32:24 AM »
i took his opinions into consideration when we got pregnant, but ultimately it was my decision, because if he decided to leave, he could...i'm still left with our child. when men can say they'll be there 110% of the childs life as long as the child needs, then they can have a say, but when so many women are left with the children, and it's the woman's body this takes place in, men should just keep quiet about it lol

Obviously, while pregnant a woman doesn't have the option of simply running away from her situation, but once the child is born a woman has just as much opportunity to abandon her family as a man does. It may not happen as frequently (no idea on the men vs. women family abandonment statistics), but it certainly does happen.

BTW Gawd, I'm pretty sure there was another thread here on this subject, maybe around mid 2011. I think it was started by Plethora,  in any case I remember him making some excellent points on the matter. Maybe the mods can help dig it up for you.
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Offline Tero

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2013, 10:03:01 AM »
No rights. You shoot, you pay.

It gets too complicated otherwise.

My stand: every female over 12 gets to decide. Under 12: court mandated abortion.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2013, 11:00:21 AM »
For me, this isn't too complicated, though some might not agree with part of it.  But the fact of the matter is that sex, no matter how pleasurable, is based around reproduction.  So men and women both shouldn't have sex unless they're ready to be parents.  Birth control mitigates that to a large degree, as does abortion, but they aren't cure-alls, nor should they be used as such.  The only foolproof way to not get pregnant/not cause a pregnancy is to not have sex.

However, sex is one of those things that it's easier - far easier - to talk about not doing than it is to successfully not do.  And that's where "abstinence-only" programs and the like fall short.  The biological imperative to reproduce is very strong, and trying to get people to stop having sex makes herding cats look like a restful, peaceful occupation.  So like it or not, both birth control and abortion are necessary.  And knowing that, I would rather have them be visible, but safe and legal, than not.

To get back to the original question, I believe a father's rights are dependent on his level of commitment to the relationship.  And that he has responsibility regardless of that.  If you have two people in a committed relationship, it is not reasonable to say that the woman is the only one who has any say regarding an abortion.  Or, to put it another way, we get rights because we take on responsibilities, and we lose those rights if we abrogate those responsibilities.  A man has a responsibility towards any children he fathers, even if they're not born yet; if he takes on those responsibilities, then he gets the rights that go along with.  Including the right to have a say in an abortion decision.

If he doesn't, then he doesn't.

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2013, 11:28:38 AM »

Obviously, while pregnant a woman doesn't have the option of simply running away from her situation, but once the child is born a woman has just as much opportunity to abandon her family as a man does. It may not happen as frequently (no idea on the men vs. women family abandonment statistics), but it certainly does happen.
i agree dumpster, women do still give up their babies and children from time to time, but no where near as often as you hear about men doing it, only it's got to be insanly more difficult on the woman who has had that baby inside her, felt it moving and kicking, it's not something i can accurately get across to a man who hasn't experienced it, and what it's like, but typically, not every time, but typically there's such a strong bond there that by the time the child is actually born, giving it up isn't an option. of course there are those who continue to have kids they can't take care of, who get taken away, 'to a much better place' in the foster care system that isn't already totally overloaded with unwanted children.  there will always be the exception to the rule, and i'm not saying women don't make bad choices from time to time, but i still believe it is ultimately her choice when it's something that happens to her. just as it should have been my husbands choice to get a vasectomy, not left up to me. don't get me wrong, i'm glad they valued my opinion in that situation, but i'd never make that choice for him, but i would support him in making his choice. i couldn't imagine taking away womens rights after all that has had to happen to get them.

Offline Traveler

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2013, 01:14:52 PM »
Abortion is always the woman's decision. Period. End of sentence. If she's in a committed relationship and she doesn't at least listen to her partner's opinion she's an idiot, but she still has the only final say. Her body.

Ditto with vasectomy. I think its insane that a spouse has to sign the permission slip. Of course the man should discuss it, assuming a loving relationship, but there might be reasons not to tell her. As an example, a woman who wants way more children than he, or doesn't tell the truth about her use of contraception, or where the wife is abusive.

Ditto with tubal ligation, for all the same reasons.

Sperm donors should have no obligation whatsoever. They're doing the recipient a favor, and should presumably have given up their rights and responsibilities at the door.

Rapists getting visitation rights is one of the most horrific laws I have ever heard of. It offends me that this can even be considered, much less be a matter of law. It is barbaric and stupid.

Child support is where it gets complicated for me. Personally, if I got pregnant against the will of my partner, and I chose to keep it, I'd be inclined to let him off the hook. But if he had money and I didn't, I don't know. If we both wanted to have children, he should definitely help care for the child.

I'll tell you this ... when my ex and I broke up, he wanted our dogs. I shared in the expenses of their care for the rest of their life, because we'd gotten them together and I felt responsible. We simply figured their care into our split of resources, and when an emergency came up, he let me know. I didn't mind at all, and I can't imagine that I'd do any less for a human child!!!


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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2013, 02:02:15 PM »
Ditto with vasectomy. I think its insane that a spouse has to sign the permission slip. Of course the man should discuss it, assuming a loving relationship, but there might be reasons not to tell her.
i was actually quite shocked they wanted me to sign saying i'm agreeing with his choice. they also asked that i be present in the room, not just the waiting room, but actually in the procedure room...i guess in case i changed my mind at the last second..i'm not sure. i'm glad i was there, to support him, and also to see him in the most precarious position, being that he watched me give birth to our two daughters, it was kinda nice to see the situation reversed a little..and it wasn't a major surgery or anything, back to work 2 days later. but i wasn't quiet sure why i had to sign. though there was an issue with his age at the time more than anything, they didn't want to snip someone young with 2 kids, so maybe that had something to do with why i had to say ok. we had that conversation, how would i feel if he had to ok a procedure on me, have to say, i wouldn't like it. lol i don't think it should have been my choice anymore than it should be his choice, or anyone else's choice what they want to do with their own body.
i'm sure each state has their own rules, or maybe it was just a specific docs office that does that..not sure. just know that's how it went down.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2013, 06:58:21 AM »
<sniption>
Child support is where it gets complicated for me. Personally, if I got pregnant against the will of my partner, and I chose to keep it, I'd be inclined to let him off the hook. But if he had money and I didn't, I don't know. If we both wanted to have children, he should definitely help care for the child.

<sniption>
Agree with everything. However, this is the kernal that I want to focus on. How could this play out? Personally I would find it extremely difficult if not impossible to know I had a child out there that I was not a part of her/his life. I'm sure, judging by the sheer # of children I come across w/o paternal involvement, that a segment of the population isnt like that though. Also the financial burden of children can be crushing if applied by the state. Luckily for me, my daughter's mother hasnt gone the state route and we just take care of her. I think here in IL the first child with each woman gets 20% of the father's income, after that I think its like 15% of the remaining income per child with each woman (I dated a woman that had a son whose father had like 9 kids by 4 or 5 women so I would get some of the #'s but that was years ago and I may be wrong). So for example if his 1st two children were with the same woman then he'd pay 35% of his paycheck.

 Now, on top of that, the custodial parent is the one that gets to claim the child on their income tax. So according to the government you are and arent a parent all at the same damn time. I'm doing okay now, but at 80% of what I make where I live I wouldnt be able to find affordable comfortable housing and pay my car note. Frankly the idea of that has served as a deterant from succombing to temptation  ;). Furthermore, even though I'm not the custodial parent I pay for a two bedroom apt for her, I have to buy food anyways, I pay for school (fees, supply, lunch), I have provided insurance (not any more since the family plan would be the same cost for her mother w/ or w/o my daughter on it), I buy the clothes luckily for my daughter cuz her mother's fashion sense is not sense at all, etc...

nowhere am I suggesting that child support shouldnt be provided, let me get that straight, but I am saying that it can be debilitating. I can certainly see many many problems with what I am proposing (male parental responsibility waving rights). And initially I thought it may help to bring about sexual responsibility, but on further inspection I doubt it. And I dont see a way to apply such a plan that would protect the child, mother, and father...

Offline Traveler

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2013, 12:07:12 PM »
... nowhere am I suggesting that child support shouldnt be provided, let me get that straight, but I am saying that it can be debilitating...

Yeah, this is the crux of the matter for me, and why the issue is so complicated. The financials are crushing for anyone paying for child-rearing. Who should bear that burden? I don't have any good answers. I want to say that if the woman chose to keep the child against the man's will, its her responsibility. But what if she can't afford it? The child is the one who suffers. For me, personally, if I contributed to the birth of a child, I'd consider that child my partial responsibility. If the woman lied about her condition, for instance if she said she'd had a hysterectomy, and then she got pregnant? I'd feel very differently. I would feel cheated, and not responsible at all. But on the other hand, the child carries half my dna ... yes, very confusing issue. BUT, I would think that outright deception is rare, and just a red herring. In most cases, both parties are equally responsible. For me this is a hypothetical philosophical discussion, because I never wanted children and did everything possible to prevent that happening. Never got pregnant, so never had to worry about the long term effects of these types of decisions.
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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2013, 01:44:35 PM »
Is there an egg bank for men?
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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2013, 02:46:24 PM »
Is there an egg bank for men?

I don't know of one, though they can sometimes find a surrogate. I suppose if artificial incubators are ever invented/perfected this would be a viable choice for men to have their own children.
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2013, 04:30:18 AM »
My opinion of mens abortion rights...  CONDOMS CONDOMS CONDOMS     And for the people who think abortion should be illegal... bullcrap - it should be obsolete.  There should be RESEARCH for effective birth control; EDUCATION so young kids have something better to do than screw; TREATMENT so mentally ill assholes don't rape; and GENETIC TESTING to detect and eliminate life threatening birth defects.  If all the effort that goes in to waving signs and picketing clinics went in to these things maybe we would be closer to abortion being a choice no one had to make.
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Offline plethora

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2013, 04:51:34 AM »
As somewhat stated already in previous posts... abortion is not about the rights and obligations of parents. Those come into play after birth.

The core argument for abortion is that a person has the right to full autonomy over their body. It just so happens to be our biology that women get pregnant and men don't. That's just the way it is, whether we think it's fair or not. Therefore, women are the only ones in a position to be able to decide whether they want to have an abortion or not. Neither the biological father, or any other person in the world, should have the right to decide what a woman wants to do with her body.

On vasectomies ... I had mine a couple of years ago. The doc did ask me if I was married, which I am, and then asked me if my wife was in agreement with me having this procedure done. I told the doctor "Yes, we talked about this and she is in agreement, but I don't see how that's relevant. I'm having a procedure done on my body and it's my choice." The doctor was surprised to hear this. He did say he agreed with me but that he was required to ask. Anyway, my wife didn't have to sign anything, much less be present during the procedure so apparently it's not required here in the UK.

With regards to parenting and child support ... I'll come back and post later today as I don't really have the time right now and this is a deeper, more complicated issue.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2013, 07:39:34 AM »
There is probably no one answer, and each case must be decided upon its merits. What sort of person is the man or woman? Will the birth kill the woman? Are there those women who would choose to die in childbirth even if the man did not want this - what to do with this sort of person?

What if the woman said she was infertile/on the pill? Do women intentionally become pregnant to catch a man or have them support them? What of sperm donors who now can be found liable for child support payments? What of the lesbian couple who arrange for a dupe to impregnate one of them? - This happens.

If, despite the man urging an abortion, must he have visiting rights and give support?

In the case of a casual relationship, and both were aware that this was the case, if the man is for abortion and the woman is against, should the man still have to pay child support?

What of the case of the deformed yet viable foetus? Either partner could have a wish for it to be aborted - could either one insist that it is or is not.

Imagine a couple; the woman is pregnant - in general, who is going to be most upset if the pregnancy fails? I suggest it is the woman.

Do women seek abortions without telling their partner? Should they have this ability? What sanction could there be in a case like that?

Without a doubt the woman invests a lot more biologically, without doubt, in our culture, the mother is the most important parent - if this is so; then can she be outvoted? Is it even a case of democracy? If it isn't, why even ask about fathers' rights?

In conclusion, I don't think there is one answer.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2013, 09:51:33 AM »
My opinion of mens abortion rights...  CONDOMS CONDOMS CONDOMS     And for the people who think abortion should be illegal... bullcrap - it should be obsolete.  There should be RESEARCH for effective birth control; EDUCATION so young kids have something better to do than screw; TREATMENT so mentally ill assholes don't rape; and GENETIC TESTING to detect and eliminate life threatening birth defects.  If all the effort that goes in to waving signs and picketing clinics went in to these things maybe we would be closer to abortion being a choice no one had to make.
But you see how you shifted the responsibility to the man? Two people make a choice to have sex. Theyre BOTH responsible for birth control methods. If the pregnancy continues to child birth then theyre both responsible to play some role in the upbringing whether being involved voluntarily or state mandated child support. However, only a woman can decide whether or not she is ready for parenthood, the father is along for the ride.

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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2013, 08:46:16 PM »
 i think as a man, you know that you pay to play sometimes, and you have to accept responsibility for your choices that you can be responsible for. no one forced you into the situation, you went there willingly. own it. back up the lady housing that kid, no matter what her choice might be, keeping it, getting it taken care of..just don't ditch her when she needs you there, if that's what the case may be. only a ton of different scenarios it could play out as..depending on many possible factors.

not only is labor and pregnancy in general a health concern for the mother, but so is homicide of pregnant women...i don't know the stats, look it up if you want to, but i believe it's one of the most likely times a homicide will occure between a husband & wife/ boyfriend & girlfriend...cheating spouse is right up there too...but so is pregancy.

just goes to show. girls can't win.
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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2013, 04:22:50 PM »
My opinion on the subject is that ultimately it's your body and it's your decision. At least I think that's how the law should look at it.

From a moral perspective, I don't think an abortion should be made willy nilly, I understand that at the stages of development where abortion is allowed it's not a baby in your belly but tissue that has the potential to grow into one (like all those tiny sperms and eggs that have died over the years are potential babies), but I would hope that before making the decision both partners talk about it. If the guy wants to have the child, at least the two parties can reason over it. I don't think the guy should force the girl to have the baby. If the two are going to have a relationship afterwards, I think it's even more important the two consult each other. The decision does affect both involved and I only think it's fair if one listens to the other. However, I think given some situations consulting the father isn't the best option, for example, with rape, the father being abusive and/or threatening, the father abandoning you, you being too young, health, not knowing who the father is and so on.

If I got a person I'm in a relationship with pregnant, I would hope they would consult me first before having an abortion (just as I think I should consult her before getting a vasectomy) - I would want them to make the decision themselves, but I would like to have my opinion, I think it's more of an issue of trust and caring for each other's feelings & wishes rather than trying to have equal rights over the decision. I wouldn't think it right if I could tell somebody they couldn't have an abortion as essentially I'm forcing somebody to give birth to a baby. Hence I think the law should leave the decision in the favour of the mother.
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Re: Male abortion rights?
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2013, 02:43:07 PM »
I did not read all the posts but I have a thought on the subject.

A man can not have the final word on what happens to the womans body.  But he should have the ability to waive parental responsibility and not pay child support.

Assuming that the couple has never wanted children and he had sex in good faith with her under this agreement.  He should be able to demand an abortion or no parental support.  If she wants to have the child she can make that decision knowing he is not planning on being in the childs life.

His right to waive his parental responsibility only lasts as long as it is legal and possible to have an abortion.   If he has not exercised that right by the end of the first trimester then he is now responsible for child support.  Unless the pregnancy was intentionally hidden from him.

Long and short I believe that if the man does not want children he should have more say in the matter of support.

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