Author Topic: Why abortion is Wrong...  (Read 7830 times)

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Offline Mooby

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2014, 06:27:48 PM »
If you don't care about something, why talk about it?
I care about the pro-life position.  I don't care about the term.

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In effect, you're putting the onus on pregnant women - that if they can't find a way to cease being pregnant without having an abortion, then they must carry the pregnancy to term.
Is not the onus on the pregnant woman to seek an abortion as well?

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The best solution in my opinion is not to focus on trying to make abortions illegal, but to eliminate the circumstances that drive people to pursue them.  In short, coming up with a way to prevent fertilization from happening (except in the situations where it's wanted), and to come up with a feasible artificial womb.  At the risk of repeating myself, it seems to me that putting some of that money that currently goes towards trying to make abortions illegal towards dealing with the preconditions that make abortions possible would be a far more effective and elegant solution.
That skirts the issue of whether abortion itself is wrong.  Imagine if someone subbed words like "rape" in for abortion: "Rapists are going to rape anyways, so instead of fruitlessly working to punish rapists we should focus at least some attention on dealing with the preconditions that make possible."  If something is wrong, then it needs to be dealt with and to sidestep the issue by focusing on discouraging the wrongdoing while not condemning it does not address that.

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the only person who bears responsibility for your lack of discretion is you.
I'm not the one whining about discretion: you are.  If discretion is of value to you, then you should exercise that value with yourself.  Applying your invisible rules to me and then smugly pointing out that I failed to meet your subjective standards as if I should somehow care is just a silly waste of your time.

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I specifically brought up abortion, stem cell research, and other things along those lines.
And then followed with a general claim based on those examples.

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When you say you're opposed to IVF, what do you mean?  Seems to me that there's a difference between, say, using gametes to make a fertilized egg for scientific purposes, and using gametes to make a fertilized egg for purposes of artificial insemination.
I'm opposed to both as they reduce human life to something to be manipulated in a lab.  Destroying that life or putting it in a freezer is more grievous than implanting it.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #117 on: January 10, 2014, 05:46:08 PM »
Am I correct in assuming, Mooby, that you find laws that make abortion illegal to be morally right, regardless of the actual consequences? You do realize that in Romania when abortion was illegal, maternal and child mortality (along with real human suffering) actually increased, when compared to neighboring countries that allowed legal abortion and contraception during the same time period?

I can't help but wonder if you would be able to remain steadfast in your views if you were a low-income Romanian man and your 36 year old wife was pregnant for the 14th time in as many years. She is constantly pregnant from the time you first get married, and with a new infant and several toddlers the two of you can barely keep enough food in the house, let alone clothe and properly care for the growing family.

Of those 9, two babies die of neglect and malnutrition, three babies are, in desperation, left in underfunded orphanages. And that still leaves you with four children to try to raise. With an exhausted wife, sick and old before her years--who may even die trying to give birth to her last child.[1]

If she was an average female of that time and place, she might endure two stillbirths and three miscarriages in order to produce 9 living children. Your family life consists of births and deaths and drudgery.

Then, when your daughters become teenagers, they get to embark on their cycle of endless pregnancies, too, maybe starting as young as 14. Whether they want them and are suited to be parents or not. Who cares about their health, or their education? Who needs a career? Women are just walking incubators anyway, destined by their biology to have short lives defined by constant childbearing, maybe cut even shorter by having too many children too close together.

That is what is so galling about the "choose life" anti-abortion, anti-contraception viewpoint-- people who promote this don't really seem to care much about the amount of actual suffering and death. It is like real human lives on earth don't mean anything as long as the possible fantasy future in heaven is secure. 

Every fertilized egg should be preserved, at all costs, even if that practice results in far more real earthly suffering and death on the part of babies, children and their parents. How is this "choosing life"? :P
 1. Or, who may die trying to not be pregnant yet again.....in order of deadliness to the woman, normal pregnancy is more dangerous than legal abortion. An illegal, unsanitary, possibly self-induced abortion is the deadliest of all.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #118 on: January 10, 2014, 05:56:18 PM »
Nogods, the anti-choicers[1] folks can always say "well, one can always abstain from sex..."

Never mind that this is a remarkably stupid move from a policy-making perspective, as the policy-makers cannot decide for other people to stop having sex.
 1. And those who wish abortion to be illegal really are accurately described as "anti-choice" in that context, as they wish to negate a woman's choice.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #119 on: January 10, 2014, 06:14:23 PM »
^^^Yeah, the "just don't have sex" population policies work so well. Especially for teens and young married couples who are at their horniest and most fertile. Thanks, Mother Nature!

A fertile woman only has to have sex once to get pregnant and have a baby every year, if it was at the right time of her cycle. Abstinence would have to be 100%, forever, with no slip-ups at all, to prevent pregnancy. Human beings are remarkably good at making babies--and now we have gotten pretty good at keeping them alive for the most part. That's why there are 7 billion of us here, in spite of everything.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #120 on: January 10, 2014, 08:57:26 PM »
One could even say that we've evolved to reproduce effectively.  Just like every other organism on Earth.

This is unlikely to get traction with the divine-genesis-of-Humanity crowd, of course.
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #121 on: January 11, 2014, 09:38:33 PM »
Imagine if someone subbed words like "rape" in for abortion: "Rapists are going to rape anyways, so instead of fruitlessly working to punish rapists we should focus at least some attention on dealing with the preconditions that make possible."  If something is wrong, then it needs to be dealt with and to sidestep the issue by focusing on discouraging the wrongdoing while not condemning it does not address that.


Actually while I am not for letting rapists off the hook I am all for studying the conditions which lead one to become a rapist and figuring out ways to prevent future rapists from developing.


It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #122 on: January 11, 2014, 10:19:10 PM »
There are a lot of thing you could sub "rape" in for that would sound a lot worse as a result.  All this demonstrates is that we find rape to be wrong.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #123 on: January 11, 2014, 11:02:30 PM »
I care about the pro-life position.  I don't care about the term.
You're probably in the minority, then.  I suspect a lot of people like considering themselves pro-life because of how the term makes them feel, rather than because of any principles.

Quote from: Mooby
Is not the onus on the pregnant woman to seek an abortion as well?
If you don't understand the difference between finding a doctor to perform an already-understood medical technique, and inventing a working artificial womb (never mind figuring out how to transfer the fetus to it), then there's little point in continuing to converse with you.  If you do understand it, then do not try to equate the two.

Quote from: Mooby
That skirts the issue of whether abortion itself is wrong.  Imagine if someone subbed words like "rape" in for abortion: "Rapists are going to rape anyways, so instead of fruitlessly working to punish rapists we should focus at least some attention on dealing with the preconditions that make possible."  If something is wrong, then it needs to be dealt with and to sidestep the issue by focusing on discouraging the wrongdoing while not condemning it does not address that.
Actually, given that rape still occurs over 200,000 times per year in the USA alone despite having been a felony for decades, it seems that trying to deal with it by punishment isn't actually working all that well.  Declaring that it's morally wrong doesn't seem to have worked out that well either.  And while the incidence of rape has gone down over the past two decades, it has not gone down due to punishing rapists, but by educating people and taking preventative measures before someone has the chance to commit rape.  If it's working with rape, then it seems to me that it would work with abortion as well.

Quote from: Mooby
I'm not the one whining about discretion: you are.  If discretion is of value to you, then you should exercise that value with yourself.  Applying your invisible rules to me and then smugly pointing out that I failed to meet your subjective standards as if I should somehow care is just a silly waste of your time.
No, you're just the one who's trying to act as if you didn't do anything wrong, and trying to act like I'm to blame because I gave you the 'opportunity' to be indiscreet.  Well, that's exactly the same kind of flawed logic that people use to rationalize away committing crimes.  Granted, what you did is nowhere near as serious as that, but the fact remains that you're responsible for your own behavior, and trying to blame me for it simply is not going to fly.

EDIT:  Here, I'll give you a non-crime example.  Let's say that you draped your arm over someone (male or female, it doesn't matter), because they didn't do anything to stop you.  You don't see anything wrong with this because, say, you were raised to think that physical contact with other people is nothing to be worried about.  But they start complaining about it because they didn't appreciate you doing it to them.  See the problem?  I'm complaining because you acted in a manner which I find objectionable, specifically so that you know I find it objectionable and will know not to do it in the future.  Your response is essentially, "well, I did nothing wrong, and I'll do it again if you let me, so if you don't like it, be more careful next time."  Or at least that's how it's coming across.

Now can you see why I'm continuing to complain about it?  The way you're acting says to me that you'll act exactly the same way in the future regardless of what I say now.  That's both rude and offensive of you.

Quote from: Mooby
And then followed with a general claim based on those examples.
And when you tried to apply that general claim to me, as if I should have defended your generalized claim as well as my specific ones, you committed a straw man fallacy.

Quote from: Mooby
I'm opposed to both as they reduce human life to something to be manipulated in a lab.  Destroying that life or putting it in a freezer is more grievous than implanting it.
While I don't agree, the purpose of this particular question was to figure out why you were opposed, and you've covered that.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 11:12:39 PM by jaimehlers »

Online xyzzy

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #124 on: January 11, 2014, 11:04:44 PM »
I was going to say something about evolution, but Azdgari already did.

So instead I'll just add that it's like hearing a conversation where someone says: "See that thing that you are really, really, really good at? The thing that you were practically designed to do as if your survival depended on it?"

"Well, we don't want you to do that. And, just for grins, we're going to do all that we can to remove the most effective methods, and do all that we can to make it as hard as possible for you not to do that thing that many of you want to do more than anything else".

"Just [don't] do it".
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #125 on: January 11, 2014, 11:30:29 PM »
Am I correct in assuming, Mooby, that you find laws that make abortion illegal to be morally right, regardless of the actual consequences?
No, as I said I'd consider an exception when two life issues conflicted.  Like, if both are likely to die then we may have to save the mother and let the fetus die.

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Every fertilized egg should be preserved, at all costs, even if that practice results in far more real earthly suffering and death on the part of babies, children and their parents. How is this "choosing life"? :P
More than this?



Actually, given that rape still occurs over 200,000 times per year in the USA alone despite having been a felony for decades, it seems that trying to deal with it by punishment isn't actually working all that well.  Declaring that it's morally wrong doesn't seem to have worked out that well either.  And while the incidence of rape has gone down over the past two decades, it has not gone down due to punishing rapists, but by educating people and taking preventative measures before someone has the chance to commit rape.  If it's working with rape, then it seems to me that it would work with abortion as well.
So we should legalize rape first, then look for another solution?

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No, you're just the one who's trying to act as if you didn't do anything wrong, and trying to act like I'm to blame because I gave you the 'opportunity' to be indiscreet.
I didn't do anything "wrong."  I think you may be confusing an exaggerated reply to something I found silly with things that actually matter.  Again, if you want to apply Jaimehlers' Rules of Forums to your own posts, go right ahead.  I'm not interested in playing the game where you make a post with the intention of getting me to break an invisible rule that doesn't matter so you can claim I broke an invisible rule that doesn't matter.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2014, 03:00:55 PM »
The rude Pundit combines two of my favorite topics: abortion and Israel

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2014/01/hey-anti-choicers-by-your-own-logic.html
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You might have heard over the Christian holiday season that the great and noble and never-wrong-no-matter-what nation of Israel decided to pay for all abortions approved by a government medical council (of two doctors and a social worker, one of which must be a woman) for all women between the ages of 20 and 40. They can get those abortions for any reason: health, financial, inconvenience to a marriage.

Toss that around in your noggin for a moment. One of the things that gets anti-choice and/or evangelical nutbags all frothing at the mouth is the idea that a single penny of government money might, in some minuscule way, be used to make abortion more accessible. Right now, a House committee is considering the stupidly-named "No Taxpayer Funding of Abortion Act." You may as well name your committee "The He-Man Woman Haters Club," Rep. Trent Franks. The purpose of the bill is to say that Affordable Care Act funds cannot be used on any insurance plan that includes abortion coverage, even if that coverage has to be purchased as a separate rider and no Obamacare subsidies are used on it, because apparently saving money in one place makes buying abortion coverage easier. (While we're focused on just this aspect of it, it's actually a pretty savage piece of legislation.)

...
continues

sweet merciful jesus, I love the rude pundit.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #127 on: January 12, 2014, 04:30:42 PM »
So we should legalize rape first, then look for another solution?
I didn't say that.  In any case, the two situations are not analogous.  As we've discovered, merely outlawing rape doesn't keep people from committing it, just as outlawing alcohol didn't keep people from drinking it, just as outlawing drugs hasn't kept people from using them, and just as abortion being previously illegal didn't keep women from seeking out people who would perform it.  It's clear that merely trying to outlaw something isn't enough to stop people from doing it - you have to do something about the reasons why they want to do it.

So, what are pro-life groups doing to try to eliminate the perceived need for abortions?  I mean, since outlawing abortions wouldn't stop them from happening.

Quote from: Mooby
I didn't do anything "wrong."
No, you did something that offended me, and I'm telling you so you don't do it again.  This is especially important because I've caught you doing things like it several times now, meaning you may not even think about doing it.

Quote from: Mooby
I think you may be confusing an exaggerated reply to something I found silly with things that actually matter.
You don't get to decide whether something you said or did you offended someone.  I can accept that you didn't mean to, but only if you indicate that you understand that it's something you should avoid in the future.

Quote from: Mooby
Again, if you want to apply Jaimehlers' Rules of Forums to your own posts, go right ahead.  I'm not interested in playing the game where you make a post with the intention of getting me to break an invisible rule that doesn't matter so you can claim I broke an invisible rule that doesn't matter.
I'm not playing games here.  When you do something that is offensive, it matters to the person you offended.  You don't get to declare that because it doesn't matter to you, that the other person should just shut up about it.  Which, you might note, is exactly what you're trying to do now.

Indeed, it's not just that you did it this one time.  You did practically the same exact thing not long after - except that instead of merely asking me what else I meant, you assumed I meant other things and then tried to act like I was changing my view when I clarified what I meant, I have to assume that this was deliberate and intentional on your part - an attempt to use my words against me so you could discredit my position without actually challenging it.  I find that offensive, and I'm not willing to tolerate it.

And you did something very similar in this very post by asking me if I thought we should legalize rape before taking preventative measures against it - a leading question where I have to answer very carefully to avoid giving you further openings to take advantage of what I say.  For someone who purportedly doesn't like it when people make posts to try to play "gotcha", you sure don't have a problem doing pretty much the same thing yourself so you can indirectly undercut their argument.

Also, you didn't respond to the following section of my post.

If you don't understand the difference between finding a doctor to perform an already-understood medical technique, and inventing a working artificial womb (never mind figuring out how to transfer the fetus to it), then there's little point in continuing to converse with you.  If you do understand it, then do not try to equate the two.
Do you understand the difference between the two, and that you shouldn't try to equate them?  This is not a rhetorical question.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #128 on: January 12, 2014, 05:26:45 PM »
The rude Pundit combines two of my favorite topics: abortion and Israel

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2014/01/hey-anti-choicers-by-your-own-logic.html
Quote
You might have heard over the Christian holiday season that the great and noble and never-wrong-no-matter-what nation of Israel decided to pay for all abortions approved by a government medical council (of two doctors and a social worker, one of which must be a woman) for all women between the ages of 20 and 40. They can get those abortions for any reason: health, financial, inconvenience to a marriage.

Toss that around in your noggin for a moment. One of the things that gets anti-choice and/or evangelical nutbags all frothing at the mouth is the idea that a single penny of government money might, in some minuscule way, be used to make abortion more accessible. Right now, a House committee is considering the stupidly-named "No Taxpayer Funding of Abortion Act." You may as well name your committee "The He-Man Woman Haters Club," Rep. Trent Franks. The purpose of the bill is to say that Affordable Care Act funds cannot be used on any insurance plan that includes abortion coverage, even if that coverage has to be purchased as a separate rider and no Obamacare subsidies are used on it, because apparently saving money in one place makes buying abortion coverage easier. (While we're focused on just this aspect of it, it's actually a pretty savage piece of legislation.)

...
continues

sweet merciful jesus, I love the rude pundit.

Women between the ages of 20 and 40?  That is just weird. 

I would argue that women who fall outside of those age groups, on either side, might be those who might be most likely to be unable to adequately provide for a child's needs, and most personally at risk.

While there are certainly many women who have given birth in their teens, and many women who have give birth in their 40's, who have been spectacular moms, the reasons for having an abortion in those age groups are really significant.

Teen moms are sometimes (often?) emotionally unprepared to face the demands of parenthood.  They are less likely to be financially capable of providing for a child, both in the short term, and over the course of the child's lifetime, if they drop out of school to raise the child.  And they are more likely to put other life priorities of the needs of their child.  And, are less likely to have access to funds to pay for an abortion.

Older women are more like to have high risk pregnancies, that put their own health at risk.  And they are also exponentially more likely to have a child with special needs, such as down syndrome.  Down syndrome people need a lifetime of support, and may live well into their 40's, 50's or even 60's.  For a woman in her 40's to embark on a journey into parenthood which could require 40 or 50 or 60 years of parental care if often not a wise choice.  For the woman.  For the child.  Or for the society. 

What on earth was the Israeli government thinking when it came up with these age restrictions? 


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #129 on: January 12, 2014, 05:40:36 PM »
The rude Pundit combines two of my favorite topics: abortion and Israel

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2014/01/hey-anti-choicers-by-your-own-logic.html
Quote
You might have heard over the Christian holiday season that the great and noble and never-wrong-no-matter-what nation of Israel decided to pay for all abortions approved by a government medical council (of two doctors and a social worker, one of which must be a woman) for all women between the ages of 20 and 40. They can get those abortions for any reason: health, financial, inconvenience to a marriage.

Toss that around in your noggin for a moment. One of the things that gets anti-choice and/or evangelical nutbags all frothing at the mouth is the idea that a single penny of government money might, in some minuscule way, be used to make abortion more accessible. Right now, a House committee is considering the stupidly-named "No Taxpayer Funding of Abortion Act." You may as well name your committee "The He-Man Woman Haters Club," Rep. Trent Franks. The purpose of the bill is to say that Affordable Care Act funds cannot be used on any insurance plan that includes abortion coverage, even if that coverage has to be purchased as a separate rider and no Obamacare subsidies are used on it, because apparently saving money in one place makes buying abortion coverage easier. (While we're focused on just this aspect of it, it's actually a pretty savage piece of legislation.)

...
continues

sweet merciful jesus, I love the rude pundit.
I wonder if the conservatives who support continued funding to Israel[1] with knee-jerk regularity because god, would consider cutting off funds. Because abortion. I am sure that heads are exploding even as we speak.
 1. Don't get me started. They have about $30,000 per capita yearly income. They have fewer than 7 million people. They are a middle class country with modern infrastructure and national health care. And we still give them about 3 billion a year in foreign aid money, more than any other single country. So they can build up one of the top ten military forces in the world and finance a theocratic police state. Other countries try that sh!t and we invade their a$$es!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #130 on: January 14, 2014, 05:54:39 PM »
Women between the ages of 20 and 40?  That is just weird. 

This is the age group most fit to serve in the Israeli Army... just sayin'
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2014, 09:01:04 AM »
... and finance a theocratic police state.

I do not think it is theocratic.  But it is apartheid for sure.

Back on topic now...
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2014, 05:35:46 PM »
... and finance a theocratic police state.

I do not think it is theocratic.  But it is apartheid for sure.

Back on topic now...

Okay, I take back the theocratic part--discriminating against non-Jews and having preferential immigration policies, benefits, etc. for Jewish people isn't the same as rule by some form of Judaic law. But yeah, it is undemocratic and very like apartheid.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #133 on: January 28, 2014, 08:25:14 AM »
Ross Douthat - conservative opinionator ar the NYTimes and all around jughead - wrote a piece trying to examine what went wrong with marriage amongst the proletariat.  His solution is for conservatives and liberals to compromise.  Conservatives would have to acknowledge their approach to crime - mass incarceration - sucks donkey balls and they would have to start a jobs program for the poor, a form of wealth redistribution.

The liberals would have to cop to the (alleged) fact that stable marriages prevent poverty and society is falling apart because of lewd and lascivious movies.  And to support marriage they should stand behind a ban on abortions after the first trimester.  He gives some reasons and very little data.   Suffice it to say, it is a stupid argument.

Over at Slate, there is a rebuttal by William Saletan:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/saletan/2014/01/27/ross_douthat_s_case_against_contraception_is_reproductive_choice_too_dangerous.html
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...When you look at the totality of the argument, what stands out most strikingly is that none of it is about protecting unborn life. All of it is, in Douthat’s words, about “the power Roe v. Wade gave women over reproduction.” It’s not an argument against killing babies. It’s an argument against empowering women to separate sex from parenthood.

...

It is very good.  You should read it all.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #134 on: January 28, 2014, 10:06:03 AM »
Well, I agree with him on mass incarceration. And since he's already admitted it sucks, lets change it. As for empowering women, he can crawl back into whatever cave he crawled out of and meditate on why he's a cruel and sexist pig.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #135 on: January 28, 2014, 10:25:16 AM »
What I find funny is that if he really honestly believes mass incarceration to be a piss-poor policy, then why not promote action on that directly instead of offering it as some sort of trade item to liberals?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #136 on: January 29, 2014, 06:38:27 AM »
What I find funny is that if he really honestly believes mass incarceration to be a piss-poor policy, then why not promote action on that directly instead of offering it as some sort of trade item to liberals?

When you are a conservative, you have to save face or join The Borg.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #137 on: January 29, 2014, 05:38:23 PM »
What went wrong with marriage? People are still getting married in the US.  Some are even of the opposite sex.  ;)

I read both articles, and it seems that "marriage"  is referring to some kind of primitive prehistoric relationship, one former virgin female in the cave, pregnant all the time, with one virile male out clubbing bears and dragging home the meat. When did this become the model of how human families in the 21st century should be formed? What is marriage for, anyway?

The conservative writer seems to think that his "walk down the aisle and then have monogamous sex with one person forever" version of marriage was always practiced, everywhere, right up until the 1970's when Norman Lear produced All in the Family.

People watched the teevee, see, and then, inspired by what they saw on Love, American Style,  started having random sex, getting divorced and aborting fetuses right and left. Poverty rose, prisons filled and social chaos resulted. So, to reduce social chaos, we should make people have babies they don't want, and force them to marry people against their will. And sit them down to watch reruns of The Waltons.

Wait, WTF?

If you look at how marriage really worked in different times in history, it always reflected economic reality, prevailing technology and social conditions. Until the 1800's most poor people never got formally married in most countries. They had informal/formal community sanctioned long-term hookups, because they had no property and nobody official cared who they had sex with.[1]

Babies came and kids were cared for more or less communally-- as they still are in most parts of the world. Death was common; kids died a lot; many women died having kids; most men died before their younger wives. So lots of people ended their lives with a different person than they started out with. The phrase "till death do us part" meant when, not if.

So, people are not getting married nowadays in the same way as in previous eras. Well, what has changed? Lots of things, all of them pretty positive.

1) We live in cities, not on subsistence farms, therefore we don't need to breed our own labor force to survive. The kids we do have can go to school instead of starting work at age 12 or 14. Fewer kids per family is better for women, and for the planet.

2) We finally stopped punishing unmarried people [cough women cough] for having sex. Contraception makes pregnancy more of a conscious choice for a woman than an accidental few minutes that then determines the rest of her life.

3) Child death rates have fallen; now social conditions are stable enough to have fewer kids-- most of them won't die.

4) Life expectancy is way up, so the idea of marrying at 18 and staying with that person until death (maybe 70 years or more) makes a lot less sense.

5) Women can earn a decent living and support themselves-- without having to cook and clean and have sex with a man who has a good job.

Clearly, the stats on single parent families being worse off are true. But that is mainly because two adults generally earn more and have more resources than one. If the conservatives really wanted to help kids (hah) it should not matter whose kids they were or how they got made.

They should get out of people's bedrooms and support all families regardless of marriage status or sexual orientation. They should be all about family allowances, daycare and after school programs, higher minimum wages, national health care and all that liberal sh!t that they consistently vote against. Then maybe I might give a damn about their faux concern for women and children.

Rant over. For now. 
 1. Of course, cultures always decided whether same sex nookie or polygamy was officially allowed or not....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #138 on: January 29, 2014, 06:38:50 PM »
It seems like the mentality, "We should go back to the 50's. Times were more peaceful then." Which is a load of shit. And it's mainly white men who say that: women knew their place, non-whites knew their place, you could beat your wife and not get into trouble for it. Sleep with anyone you wanted, and your wife couldn't (or by social standards of women being paid next to nothing an hour, and raising their children in a "proper" Christian home, and the church basically ran your (as in women) social life etc.,) divorce their husband because where would they go? What about the children? etc.,

It's all a figment of a reality that either never existed to begin with or only existed in parts, and even the reality of that isn't so much of a reality.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.