Author Topic: Why abortion is Wrong...  (Read 9115 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2013, 10:36:37 AM »
I'm sick of this attitude that having an abortion is 'no big deal'.

For you, it may be a big deal.  For others, it isn't.  Why is that a problem for you?

Why is the idea of getting an abortion a big deal to you? 

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2013, 11:08:38 AM »
Honestly, a decision about abortion between two people in a committed relationship isn't going to be a matter of one person or the other making a choice and the other having to live with it.  That is a really good way to destroy such a relationship.  Ultimately, it is going to be a decision that the two of them have to share.  If there isn't such a relationship (whether it's a one-night stand, sperm donorship, or rape), then there's no real argument for it being anyone's choice but the mother's.

As far as whether it's a casual decision...I don't think it is.  Because, you see, a fetus may be nothing more than a bundle of differentiated cells at that time, but it will eventually grow into another human being.  That isn't something that I can ignore, or pretend to myself that it doesn't matter because it isn't currently a human being.  That particular batch of cells will only ever get that one shot at becoming a human being, and I don't think that can be disregarded.

I'm not going to tell other people what they should think about this issue, but that's what I think.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2013, 11:20:14 AM »
I'm not going to tell other people what they should think about this issue, but that's what I think.

...and that's the best answer to this topic. No one should prescribe what a woman should ultimately do, whoever they are. Especially if they are men in dresses!
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Online natlegend

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2013, 02:39:12 PM »
Are you f@#king serious?

Yes.  I'm serious.

Why are other people's feelings about it a problem for you? 

I don't see abortion as a big deal, provided it was an unintended or unwanted pregnancy.  I can imagine situations where it would be a big deal.  The situation you shared strikes me as a cut and dried, easy as it gets decision.  I cannot see myself even thinking twice about it or agonizing over it for a moment.  But for you it was not that. 

I'm not pissed off at you or other people who see it differently.  I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

You don't have to answer.  My intent was not to upset you or make you feel bad. 


All I can say is, each to their own. For me, it's something I never wish to experience. Ever.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 02:55:36 PM by natlegend »
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2013, 02:49:55 PM »
Are you f@#king serious?

Yes.  I'm serious.

Why are other people's feelings about it a problem for you? 

I don't see abortion as a big deal, provided it was an unintended or unwanted pregnancy.  I can imagine situations where it would be a big deal.  The situation you shared strikes me as a cut and dried, easy as it gets decision.  I cannot see myself even thinking twice about it or agonizing over it for a moment.  But for you it was not that. 

I'm not pissed off at you or other people who see it differently.  I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

You don't have to answer.  My intent was not to upset you or make you feel bad. 


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Offline Quesi

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2013, 03:28:18 PM »
Are you f@#king serious?

Yes.  I'm serious.

Why are other people's feelings about it a problem for you? 

I don't see abortion as a big deal, provided it was an unintended or unwanted pregnancy.  I can imagine situations where it would be a big deal.  The situation you shared strikes me as a cut and dried, easy as it gets decision.  I cannot see myself even thinking twice about it or agonizing over it for a moment.  But for you it was not that. 

I'm not pissed off at you or other people who see it differently.  I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

You don't have to answer.  My intent was not to upset you or make you feel bad. 


All I can say is, each to their own. For me, it's something I never wish to experience. Ever.

I certainly cannot speak for all women, and I personally have never had an abortion, so I cannot even speak from personal experience.  But I have accompanied friends to abortions, and I have discussed upcoming abortions (and past abortions) with friends in very different circumstances, and at very different times in their lives.  Some include the scared high school senior, who doesn't want her parents to know.  The torn college student, who wanted to have kids, but not no, not yet.  The middle aged professional with kids in college, who was shocked to find that she could still become pregnant.   The loving mom of 3 who thinks maybe it would be great to have one more kid, but who is advised by her doctor that the health risks, given a serious pre-existing condition, would make a pregnancy dangerous to her. 

Abortion is an invasive medical procedure.  It is nasty.  And there are hormonal changes going on in many pregnant women, that amplify emotions.  And, whether the woman considers the pregnancy to be an unwanted "thing" growing in her body, or the potential child that she wants but can't have, it is a highly emotional experience for most women.

And then there is the question of who to tell, and who not to tell.  The fear of being judged.  The decision of who to bring with you to the procedure.  And finally, there are the "what ifs" that happen years later. 

As a young woman, fresh out of college, I thought that I was pregnant.  I was not ready to have a kid, but I talked about it with my boyfriend, and we decided I would have the baby.  It turned out that I was not pregnant.  But even now, I count the years of how old that child would be, and ponder how different my life would have been if I had become a mother so young.  And when I think back, 99% of me is so relieved that I have had the life that I have had.  And 1% of me is wistful.  Many (most?) women who have abortions count on their fingers too.  The child would be 7 now.  17 now.  Can you imagine, me, with a child that age?

And then there is the aftermath.  If a young woman has an abortion, and then years later, tries to become pregnant and miscarries, she will probably fear/wonder whether the earlier abortion has impacted on her ability to carry a child to term.  Or if she gives birth to a preemie after a previous abortion, she might blame herself for the pain that her newborn is going through. 

Perhaps, for some women, the decision to have an abortion is not a big deal.   But not for anyone I know.   

Offline Bagheera

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2013, 05:07:53 PM »
The abortion debate is one that seems to be getting louder and louder in today's society... This is my take... Abortion is wrong, in all cases except if it is endangering the life of the mother. From a religious or secular view I believe that the very Idea that this is still something we debate is rather sick. Am embryo, a fetus is not just a living thing, it is the embodiment of human potential. From the moment it is created it has the potential to be a great person. To think, to create, to love, to be loved. It has the potential to change the world, and taking that away is just sick and frankly a crime against the species as a whole. A human being is the most powerful thing in the known universe and cutting it off before it gets a chance is just not right. Please tell me I am wrong.

You can extend that argument to all human life, from the embryonic to the very old.

Here is my non-religious take on abortion. It is the birthright (apologies) of the human species:

-that something unseen less real than something seen;
-that something smaller is not worth as much as something that is bigger;
-that the ability to communicate makes someone human, and without that ability humanity is in doubt

Those are part of the elements of being human that make abortion more acceptable than infanticide. Also, from the standpoint of pregnancy/childbirth itself:

-childbirth is still dangerous
-enforcing pregnancy reduces women to the role of incubators

And is the big one from modern cultures:
 
Maintaining the survival of the fetus at all costs essentially means controlling the bodies of two living things when the one hosting the other is fully capable of  making decisions about its own body and all that is in it.

And that's pretty much it. Note that I haven't provided my opinion on whether I think abortion is wrong, although you may infer what you will from my opinions about why abortion is not looked on as murder by many. Note that I haven't touch on the whole argument about resources and the poor, because it is pretty much accepted that, unless under extreme circumstances, killing an infant child is horrible, yet terminating a pregnancy is less bad.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2013, 06:22:19 PM »
.. And finally, there are the "what ifs" that happen years later. 

As a young woman, fresh out of college, I thought that I was pregnant.  I was not ready to have a kid, but I talked about it with my boyfriend, and we decided I would have the baby.  It turned out that I was not pregnant.  But even now, I count the years of how old that child would be, and ponder how different my life would have been if I had become a mother so young.  And when I think back, 99% of me is so relieved that I have had the life that I have had.  And 1% of me is wistful.  Many (most?) women who have abortions count on their fingers too.  The child would be 7 now.  17 now.  Can you imagine, me, with a child that age?
..
Perhaps, for some women, the decision to have an abortion is not a big deal.   But not for anyone I know.

Yes, perhaps that's true in this day and age, but with greater education comes greater solace in making a correct choice.

Because you can live in only one reality, you can't get a good idea of the ramifications of previous choices.  But a well studied individual can know that any other previous choice would preclude all of the following choices. If you had been pregnant and had carried the baby, your entire life would have been different. You may have died in labor, you may have had a defective baby, but what is more likely, the children that you have now, wouldn't have been the same children you could have had then. Even if they looked alike with the same birthday, they would have had a vastly different mother and household and would not be the children you see today.

Would you exchange your current child for the previously possible child? In most instances that is what you would be doing. Women are pretty good today in stopping to have children and limiting the overall number of children they have. So basically any child birthed today is one less than you would have tomorrow.

In a similar light, do you sit back and pine away for the "what if's" of choosing a different husband?

Some do perhaps, but friends will generally consul them to forget that and look only at the commitment you have. The idea of bemoaning a previous lover is looked down on today and pushes against social mores. Hopefully someday women will see that choosing when to progenate is a choice that is taken soberly and with planing and not a luck of the draw, oopsie kind of choice.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2013, 08:55:48 AM »

Abortion is an invasive medical procedure.  It is nasty. 

Only if the choice is in-clinic abortion, I would think?  Using the pill or the shot to prevent continued pregnancy seems like a much easier choice (although it has time limits).  I have read about the emotional toll on women who choose the pill, and I'm sure it's no joy ride.  I would hope that advances such as the pill make it far less intrusive and nasty.

Offline godzilla

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2014, 08:00:18 PM »
I am pro life, probably one of the few here. At least Gallup says I am one of 19% of Atheists that claim to be pro life.

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2014, 08:14:02 PM »
Pretty sure most atheists are "pro-life" - though that says nothing about their stance on abortion.  Did you mean "anti-choice"?  Because that's more descriptive most times.
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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #69 on: January 04, 2014, 12:57:24 AM »
I am pro life, probably one of the few here. At least Gallup says I am one of 19% of Atheists that claim to be pro life.

"pro-choice" does not equate to "anti-life". That's asinine.

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Offline Mooby

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #70 on: January 04, 2014, 08:08:56 PM »
Pretty sure most atheists are "pro-life" - though that says nothing about their stance on abortion.
Not quite.  "Pro-life" is a movement that covers several different "life issues," including abortion, the death penalty, euthanasia, assisted suicide, IVF, and embryonic stem cell research.  In each of these cases, those who identify as "pro-life" tend to take the position that the action leading to death is unethical and thus should be outlawed.  Maybe it's possible for someone to be pro-life on all those issues save abortion (there certainly those who are anti-abortion yet pro death penalty who claim to be "pro-life"), and I'm certainly not Lord of the Labels.  But I do think it shows a fair bit of ignorance to hand wave and say that most people are pro-life,[1] just as it shows a fair bit of ignorance to hand wave and say that evolution is "just a theory."  We should endeavor to use terms with proper meaning, not to twist them into the meaning that is most convenient for us.

Quote
Did you mean "anti-choice"?  Because that's more descriptive most times.
I fully admit to being anti-choice in many areas, which usually takes the form of me wanting punishment for those who make those choices anyways. 

For instance, I am against giving people the choice to rob banks, stores, or other people.  I am against giving the average person the choice to purchase a nuclear warhead, regardless of how much they really want it.  I am against giving people the choice to see how fast their car can drive through neighborhoods where small children may be playing.  I am against giving people the choice to randomly walk around sucker punching other people for fun.  I am against the choice to murder one's coworker to remove competition for a promotion.  I am against the choice of a child and adult to engage in a sexual relationship together.  I am against the choice to purchase another human being as property.  I am against the choice to kill an unwanted child after birth and yes, as it happens, I am against the choice to do it before birth too.[2]

 1. Presumably with the implication that not actively wanting to kill other people is all it takes to qualify.
 2. Before you point out the blatantly obvious, I would like to note that "anti-choice" does not describe a defined movement but rather an adjectival criticism (and really a straw-man criticism at that) of the anti-abortion position.
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Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #71 on: January 04, 2014, 11:36:42 PM »
I am against the choice to kill an unwanted child after birth and yes, as it happens, I am against the choice to do it before birth too.

Could you define child in the context of that sentence?
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2014, 12:38:43 AM »
Sure, let's go with "Human organism before puberty."
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2014, 12:43:18 AM »
I'm pro-life and pro-choice, with certain limitations, those limitations being rape, incest, life-threatening complications, and terminal defects, such as Anencephaly.

Abortion isn't "wrong", it just needs checks and balances, like everything else in life.
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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2014, 02:11:30 PM »
<snipped>

My only point, Mooby, was that the term "pro-life" and its implication that those who do not share the opinions of "pro-lifers" regarding abortion are "anti-life" is misleading at best.

At worst it is dishonest polemic language.  No wonder you approve.
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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2014, 02:19:53 PM »
<snipped>

My only point, Mooby, was that the term "pro-life" and its implication that those who do not share the opinions of "pro-lifers" regarding abortion are "anti-life" is misleading at best.

At worst it is dishonest polemic language.  No wonder you approve.

Well, from my understanding of what Mooby said is that "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are movements not abstract terminology. I don't get how "pro-choice" even signifies "anti-life" unless one focuses on the choice of death rather than also the choice of life but then one would have to consider that a fetus is life rather than not.

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Offline Mooby

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2014, 03:18:21 PM »
My only point, Mooby, was that the term "pro-life" and its implication that those who do not share the opinions of "pro-lifers" regarding abortion are "anti-life" is misleading at best.

At worst it is dishonest polemic language.  No wonder you approve.
I did not invent the term, nor have I explicitly approved it or disapproved of it.  I consider myself pro-life because my views on abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, assisted suicide, embryonic stem cell research, and IVF are all consistent with positions of the pro-life movement.

Thank you for calling me dishonest, though.  I find that ad hominems are the best way to show confidence in my views, and clearly you agree.
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Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2014, 03:25:17 PM »
Sure, let's go with "Human organism before puberty."

So would gametes count?
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2014, 03:56:26 PM »
So would gametes count?
No, gametes are not organisms as animals do not undergo alternation of generations.Wiki
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2014, 05:36:33 PM »
I did not invent the term, nor have I explicitly approved it or disapproved of it.

"Explicitly" being the operative word.  Wouldn't want to be open and honest, would we?  That's a deadly sin.

I consider myself pro-life because my views on abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, assisted suicide, embryonic stem cell research, and IVF are all consistent with positions of the pro-life movement.

That is approval of the term.  You are using it to self-describe.  Will you be honest about that?  Of course not.

Thank you for calling me dishonest, though.  I find that ad hominems are the best way to show confidence in my views, and clearly you agree.

The slime just pours out, doesn't it?  Typical of you.  Then again, as you've said, that'll be taken as a compliment.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #80 on: January 05, 2014, 07:06:05 PM »
"Explicitly" being the operative word.  Wouldn't want to be open and honest, would we?
I'm pretty sure that answer was both open and honest.

Quote
That's a deadly sin.
No it's not.  Go look up the deadly sins.

Quote
That is approval of the term.  You are using it to self-describe.
No it's not.  There are plenty of atheists who describe themselves as such while openly disapproving the term.  Joss Whedon self-describes as a feminist while openly disapproving of it as well.[1]  So no, there is no binding force that makes one approve of the terms they use.

That being said, as I already told you, I neither explicitly approve or disapprove of the term "pro-life."  There's no grand conspiracy to why that is; I just haven't gotten my panties in a wad about it enough to care one way or the other.  To me, the word is as neutral as "cat" or "banana" or "potato", and if you want to twist it to assume that those who consistently assume positions on life issues that allow for the killing of a human as "anti-life," that's your problem.  I agree with the positions of the movement, and I have no objections to the term.

Thank you for calling me dishonest, though.  I find that ad hominems are the best way to show confidence in my views, and clearly you agree.
The slime just pours out, doesn't it?  Typical of you.  Then again, as you've said, that'll be taken as a compliment.[/quote]
Another ad hominem?  Your confidence must be growing with each successive post.  Thank you for establishing that you agree with my position.

I must appear really weak now; two posts and I haven't even called you any names.  Quelle horreur!
 1. I'm inclined to agree with him.
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #81 on: January 05, 2014, 08:14:41 PM »
It seems to me that many of the people who call themselves pro-life are really just pro-birth.  They are the same ones who are complaining about funding for medicaid, "Obamacare", contraception, food stamps, unemployment, etc.  They are so consumed with making sure these fetuses are born but don't care about what happens to them and their families afterward or making sure they are wanted in the first place.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #82 on: January 05, 2014, 08:18:24 PM »
It seems to me that many of the people who call themselves pro-life are really just pro-birth.  They are the same ones who are complaining about funding for medicaid, "Obamacare", contraception, food stamps, unemployment, etc.  They are so consumed with making sure these fetuses are born but don't care about what happens to them and their families afterward or making sure they are wanted in the first place.

I think it was Barney Frank (although I'm not sure, so don't hold me to that) who said that Republicans seem to believe that life begins at conception and ends at birth.  He's so right.
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #83 on: January 05, 2014, 08:33:56 PM »
Abortion should not be illegal.  Abortion should be obsolete.  There should be no unwanted pregnancies. Kids should be educated on sex and contraception and no means no.  Contraception should be affordable, available and effective.  There should be genetic testing for people to avoid becoming pregnant if they are at risk for defects that they can't deal with.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline albeto

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2014, 01:01:57 AM »
I think it was Barney Frank (although I'm not sure, so don't hold me to that) who said that Republicans seem to believe that life begins at conception and ends at birth.  He's so right.

At least we know life begins at masturbation.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2014, 09:06:35 AM »
I think it was Barney Frank (although I'm not sure, so don't hold me to that) who said that Republicans seem to believe that life begins at conception and ends at birth.  He's so right.

At least we know life begins at masturbation.

Quote
If they’re a male baby, they may have their hand between their legs.

So, I suppose this f*cktard is ok with aborting female fetuses...    :o
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why abortion is Wrong...
« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2014, 10:56:31 AM »
The abortion debate is one that seems to be getting louder and louder in today's society... This is my take... Abortion is wrong, in all cases except if it is endangering the life of the mother. From a religious or secular view I believe that the very Idea that this is still something we debate is rather sick. Am embryo, a fetus is not just a living thing, it is the embodiment of human potential. From the moment it is created it has the potential to be a great person. To think, to create, to love, to be loved. It has the potential to change the world, and taking that away is just sick and frankly a crime against the species as a whole. A human being is the most powerful thing in the known universe and cutting it off before it gets a chance is just not right. Please tell me I am wrong.

An aspiring politian has the potential to be the president of the united states, yet because he or she is not the president they are not entitled to the same benefits and priviledges of the president.

What abortion is is a woman acting on her desire NOT to continue with a pregnancy and in some cases relieving herself of the obligation to dedicate herself to the support of another life for a large portion of her own. With this in mind the moral question many don't ask is should others have the right to say she cannot end her pregnancy except for certain reasons. For those that say she should not have this right the question becomes WHY NOT and what reasons are the exceptions.

This issue has been way oversimplified and reduced to the false dilemma that squarely focuses on the assumed right for the unborn to get a chance to be born all the while ignoring other issues like the quality of life for not only the prospective baby but the mother as well. We should ask the question of WHY yet again as it relates to the issue of the unborn having the priviledge and later the responsibilites of life. No one seems to want to admit this as we tend to want to operate in absolutes as our human brains find comfort in that, but the case can be made that the value of human lives are relative. Yes, this means all lives do NOT hold the same value. Before anyone gets upset at this declaration, I challenge you simply look at the world around you today and historically to see if lives have ever been values equally.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 11:22:31 AM by Truth OT »