Author Topic: Reality Is Paramount [#656]  (Read 963 times)

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Offline DL

Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« on: November 10, 2008, 10:16:30 PM »

I have recently watched the video asking ten questions designed to ‘prove’ God is imaginary. Good questions.

I am 21 and have been in college but never earned a degree yet I still consider myself an educated person I write in the spirit of philosophy not emnity the truth is what Im after and I believe I have found it but what kind of truth cannot stand up to reasonable discussion, therefore I wish to discuss my beleifs with intelligent people of a oppossing view.

Many of the questions fall under the category of ‘why do bad things happen to good people?’ Many people get hung up on this question and many of them are Christian but it is a matter of perspective, where does the asker stand in relation to God and the universe… how does one define good, and then one must ask ‘do I know better than God what is good or bad?’ That answers a few of the ten questions asked but I will answer them all.

A1: I believe that God does heal amputees but I cannot prove it so I won’t argue that point, but the question is flawed. Have you met all the amputees in the world? How do you know that some haven’t been healed. For the rest of this answer see above statement.

A2: (see above)

A3: Define innocent. From man’s perspective some might be ‘innocent’ but from God’s point of view the people mentioned in this question were not innocent. Who decides what is moral or what is right or wrong, the man or God.

A4: God operates in Higher dimensional physics (supernatural/super-reality) so what seems like nonsense or magic to man is higher laws of physics. If one looks at certain laws of physics one might say that an orbit cannot exist because objects travel in straight lines and gravity draws objects to the center of mass. Higher laws in action appear to break lesser ones.

A5: Again a matter of perspective… does God or man decide what is right and wrong for God and also man to do? (Note: God freed the Hebrews from the Egyptians and allowed only a seven year ownership of slaves for the Hebrews in Levitical law).

A6: (see above)

A7: What do you mean by physical evidence; the evidence is the accounts of the 12 and of many others. (It is possible that one might say that those accounts are not credible, or at least that they cannot be scientifically proven but then my question would be… can you give me evidence that Julius Gaius Caesar crossed the Rubicon to take Rome?)

A8: I believe Jesus will appear to me because I have asked him, I also believe that he has appeared to people in present times and will continue to do so in increasing frequency though I don’t need physical appearance to believe, I have plenty of other proof but considering it is only my own experiences and the testimonies of others I would not think that anyone would believe me so it will go unsaid unless asked specifics. First I must say that this question is one that many Christian ask and worry about; I have in fact asked this question myself to Jesus directly and have received as of yet no direct answer that one without knowledge of Higher Dimensional Physical Laws can understand. As to the very well thought out suggested prayer, the people praying cannot be going in with faith after reading what was written before the prayer was suggested, it will be out of curiosity or fear… not faith. Also two people in agreement on the supernatural level happens very infrequently, I doubt many people who saw the video could come together in full agreement on a physical and super-physical level.

A9: First off the initial shock of what Jesus said was part of what got him crucified and it is understandable for one not familiar with Old Testament law to get confused on what he said, this confusion is what freaked the apostles and the Jewish people out when he spoke of the blood. God commanded the Hebrews in the Old Testament to not drink the blood of man or animal because the life was contained in the blood, but Jesus wanted his life to be in the people therefore fulfilling the Old Testament Law which Jesus did many times and mostly in ways that seemed unorthodox at the time.

A10: (Professing) Christians divorce at higher rate than most other groups in America (not in the rest of the world). This happens because Christians screw up like everyone else and more so in America because many have no understanding of what it means to have a relationship with Jesus nor do they read what Jesus said about divorce.

These questions are born out of a misconception of ‘Christians’. Just because some one claims to be a Christian does not mean that they are one. These questions and Q10 in particular are made for religious people rather than spiritual people, the gap between spiritual people and religious people will widen and become more obvious when Christians are killed in the stadiums again (Persecution has never been a bad thing for true believers, we know what awaits us). Religious people got to church every Sunday because that is the system and the tradition of religion comforts them, these are no better off in the end. Jesus was the farthest person from religion and I Hate religion as well.

Religion is witch-craft’s twin sister. Believe it or not I have used similar questions to turn religious people from religion to spiritual reality. Spiritual reality is about God and his relation to man and less about the studious reading of the Bible although it is a useful tool. You will find most religious people will call the Bible the word of God and yet the Bible speaks of the word of God as something that is actually spoken or breathed on an individual basis not the King James Version of the Bible (The Rhema word as opposed to Logos). One can be free to know God when one is free of religion’s grasp… one is free to become a true Christian. (Religion includes any system invented by man that hinders truth this would include humanism and those holding to evolution). Free from religion one can truly meet God and will realize that every time a prayer was not answered the person themselves was probably blocking that answer.

Offline jetson

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 10:52:29 PM »
So, when are you going to actually speak to God to clear things up?  You seem genuinely confused and immature on these very important matters.  I think you should trek on over and hang out with the Buddhists for a spell.  Once you gain some self-confidence, and shed the immaturity, you can swing back in and give us all the scoop.

In the meantime, I'd stay away from spiritual stuff until you're over 30.  That way you can better explain it to yourself when you start asking the really important questions.  Like "What the hell was I thinking?"

Peace out.

Offline cwindian

Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 10:57:16 PM »
jetson,
your reply was arrogant and irrational. maybe you should go for some help . did you even read the response, it was good. Long, but good
cwindian

Offline jetson

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 11:07:16 PM »
jetson,
your reply was arrogant and irrational. maybe you should go for some help . did you even read the response, it was good. Long, but good
cwindian

Yes, and can you kindly explain how the OP was any more rational?  The response was not good.  A good response would be "I don't know."  All of the apologetic and unsupported claims about "God" are arrogant. 

Tell me what was so good about the post.

Offline cwindian

Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2008, 11:16:37 PM »
what is op?
cwindian

Offline Hermes

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2008, 11:35:35 PM »
Original Poster
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Dissenter

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2008, 06:01:50 AM »
jetson,
your reply was arrogant and irrational. maybe you should go for some help . did you even read the response, it was good. Long, but good
cwindian

Yeah I'm sort of interested to know what you thought was good about this as well.  Was it the fact that, only 5 lines in, the op had already presupposed the existence of his deity, with no rational justification whatsoever, and then used this premise to construct every argument after that?
What is above all needed is to let the meaning choose the word, and not the other way around.

   -George Orwell


Been caught making shit up again? Attend the I don't know 12 step program for help.

Offline one armed man

Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2008, 04:30:09 AM »
I wrote the 'op'.  Im open to logical discussion, not emotionalism, anger, or narrowmindedness.  I have had many expiriences with God but I would expect no one to believe me just as a jury can't trust a lone witness.  I believe the only way to prove that God exists to a skeptic is for that skeptic to have an expirience with God, but by using logic one can definitely come very near to proving God's existence teleologically. The video asks its' viewers to use their reasoning I would ask the skeptic to do the same, I believe that with an unbiased look into history, and science one can't help but find God.  I think logically and philosophically, I believe God exists and have no history of mental illness!  Something does not come out of nothing, atoms included not to mention complex lifeforms. A simple scientific observation would naturally lead to the hypothesis that nature is orderd and structured and therefore created.  It is obvious God exists... Faith answers the questions of 'who is God' and 'Can I trust God' not 'does God exist'.  I dont expect people to take my word for it so discussion is welcome, I would offer further scientific proof but fear that I may be accused of long-windedness so any one intersted feel free to respond.

PS:  The video states that Jesus is imaginary,  You can deny his deity but not his existence, there are just as many secular manuscripts refering to Jesus as there are manuscripts that refer to Thales, Socrates or Phillip of Macedon so Jesus' diety may be imaginary but not his existence.

Offline Airyaman

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2008, 06:46:55 AM »
PS:  The video states that Jesus is imaginary,  You can deny his deity but not his existence, there are just as many secular manuscripts refering to Jesus as there are manuscripts that refer to Thales, Socrates or Phillip of Macedon so Jesus' diety may be imaginary but not his existence.

Does believing in Thales, Socrates or Phillip of Macedon keep you out of the Christian hell?

You see, most Christians will tell you that if you don't believe in the Jesus of the bible (not just an historical Jesus), you will spend an eternity in hell. The bible even supports this belief in many -- but not all -- places. To go one step further, most will even tell you that you must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian.

Do you understand that belief in something simply cannot be turned on or off like a switch? Some people do want more evidence than mythology and "experience". If your god exists, why did he not take that into account? It seems Jesus was willing to return to ease the doubts of Thomas, but he doesn't want to do the same for the billions since 33 CE who have doubted.
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline jetson

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2008, 06:48:25 AM »
I wrote the 'op'.  Im open to logical discussion, not emotionalism, anger, or narrowmindedness.  I have had many expiriences with God but I would expect no one to believe me just as a jury can't trust a lone witness.  I believe the only way to prove that God exists to a skeptic is for that skeptic to have an expirience with God, but by using logic one can definitely come very near to proving God's existence teleologically. The video asks its' viewers to use their reasoning I would ask the skeptic to do the same, I believe that with an unbiased look into history, and science one can't help but find God.  I think logically and philosophically, I believe God exists and have no history of mental illness!  Something does not come out of nothing, atoms included not to mention complex lifeforms. A simple scientific observation would naturally lead to the hypothesis that nature is orderd and structured and therefore created.  It is obvious God exists... Faith answers the questions of 'who is God' and 'Can I trust God' not 'does God exist'.  I dont expect people to take my word for it so discussion is welcome, I would offer further scientific proof but fear that I may be accused of long-windedness so any one intersted feel free to respond.

PS:  The video states that Jesus is imaginary,  You can deny his deity but not his existence, there are just as many secular manuscripts refering to Jesus as there are manuscripts that refer to Thales, Socrates or Phillip of Macedon so Jesus' diety may be imaginary but not his existence.

Please, offer scientific proof.  Everything else you have posted is your personal opinion.  And yes, we can deny the existence of Jesus as there is very little archaeological evidence that he was a real person.  Do you realize how many books there are now that mention Harry Potter?

There is no "simple observation" that would lead to the "...hypothesis that nature is orderd and structured and therefore created."  If that were true, then we would all be believers and worshipers.  It is not obvious that God exists either, if it were obvious, we would not need this website.  

I think it is OK for one to have a personal relationship with a god character.  But it is not OK to project a personal god character onto others.

Offline one armed man

Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2008, 02:23:07 PM »

Does believing in Thales, Socrates or Phillip of Macedon keep you out of the Christian hell?

You see, most Christians will tell you that if you don't believe in the Jesus of the bible (not just an historical Jesus), you will spend an eternity in hell. The bible even supports this belief in many -- but not all -- places. To go one step further, most will even tell you that you must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian.

Do you understand that belief in something simply cannot be turned on or off like a switch? Some people do want more evidence than mythology and "experience". If your god exists, why did he not take that into account? It seems Jesus was willing to return to ease the doubts of Thomas, but he doesn't want to do the same for the billions since 33 CE who have doubted.

I think you know the answer to the first question. 
Personal expirience is the only way to prove God to skeptical people, it took a personal expirience before I believed.  As for the second question you ask... If God exists he is God and does not have to impress anyone with his reality Gods not selling time-shares he doesnt have to 'make' everyone believe.  The argument of using morality to say 'God did this, it's wrong so he must not exist' doenst work if God exists we cant pin him down in morality because morality is ultimately defined by God.

Offline Airyaman

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2008, 02:27:02 PM »
If morality is defined by your god and he is a mystery, then I suppose morality is a mystery as well.
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline one armed man

Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 02:35:22 PM »

Please, offer scientific proof.  Everything else you have posted is your personal opinion.  And yes, we can deny the existence of Jesus as there is very little archaeological evidence that he was a real person.  Do you realize how many books there are now that mention Harry Potter?

There is no "simple observation" that would lead to the "...hypothesis that nature is orderd and structured and therefore created."  If that were true, then we would all be believers and worshipers.  It is not obvious that God exists either, if it were obvious, we would not need this website.  

I think it is OK for one to have a personal relationship with a god character.  But it is not OK to project a personal god character onto others.

There are very simple observations that lead one naturally to God but most people choose to ignore them because they come into the observation wanting to prove God is not real because that is more comforting to them.

Will someone please answer the question of where did matter come from, energy as well, if not a Creator outside space and time then what? Dont try to use the excuse that the universe has always been there, If time exists there was a beginning point.

 "On the first day Darwin Created the crystal and on the second day the single cell organism"

Offline Hermes

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2008, 02:51:55 PM »
One armed man, check your Messages ... use the Preview and Modify buttons frequently.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline StPatrick

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2008, 05:50:55 PM »
Also, it is not true that there are many secular historians who reference Jesus.  Notable people like Philo, Pliny the Elder, and Seneca the Younger, who were around Jerusalem around the time that Jesus supposedly performed his miracles, are silent.  And the sources that do mention him, like Josephus, are dubious at best, and Tacitus proves only that Christians existed in the second century.

Additionally, you would do well to heed the advice of this picture:

If we come together and do not fight over religion, class and borders then we hold the key to a peaceful world. There are two possible futures in store; either a March of power and greed or a March of a unified human race.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2008, 06:07:03 PM »
Quote
I have had many expiriences with God

You've had experiences you labeled that way.

Other people have the same type of experiences but label according to reason, not inculcated belief systems from the bronze age.


 
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline one armed man

Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2008, 04:37:34 AM »
Quote
I have had many expiriences with God

You've had experiences you labeled that way.

Other people have the same type of experiences but label according to reason, not inculcated belief systems from the bronze age.


 

I have no problem sharing some of my experiences but considering any personal experience cant be proved I have not posted them. 
Please do not say my experiences are not reasonable without hearing them. 
If one wishes to be considered rational one must be objective.

Offline one armed man

Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2008, 05:24:54 AM »
Sorry about the quotation confusion I believe I have corrected it.

I would be interested to know the answer to my earlier question (it may not have been seen do to quoting errors) 'where does matter, energy or time come from.  It would be nice to see some theory on the subject.

You may find it very easy to poke holes in religion because it is man made but the supernatural (those dimensions higher than 3) you will find is much more real.  I believe in a God because from my observation nature makes that obvious; I believe in the God described in the Bible from experinces and faith.

As educated people you will want to have your own theories as opposed to attacking those you find uncomfortable.


It sounds as though there is a bit of anger/contempt built up between some of the people in the forum... alot of "Youre stupid", and "youre going to hell" b.s.
As for the Christians I apologize (If that means anything) we should be better than that... it is a horrible witness.  Christians have way better talking points than hell to evangelize, fear breeds more fear.  We should be telling skeptics about the love of God and allow the Spirit to judge rather than pass out damnation like we owned the key to hell.

All I am allowed to do by my creator is speak the truth as I see it and discuss the faith, in the end I cannot convince anyone but when I stand before God I can say I did everything I could to speak the truth and passed judgement on no one.

 

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 06:26:49 AM »
Quote
I have had many expiriences with God

You've had experiences you labeled that way.

Other people have the same type of experiences but label according to reason, not inculcated belief systems from the bronze age.


 

I have no problem sharing some of my experiences but considering any personal experience cant be proved I have not posted them. 
Please do not say my experiences are not reasonable without hearing them. 
If one wishes to be considered rational one must be objective.

I did not say your experiences were not reasonable, I said your labelling of them wasn't. It's an instant process for well-trained theists to say "goddidit", to confuse causation with correlation.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 06:29:03 AM by Ambassador Pony »
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2008, 01:36:54 PM »
where does matter, energy or time come from.?

I'll bite.  The truth is, we don't know. 

The Large Hadron Collider in France is going to be exploring that very question when it is operational.  They will be looking for last remaining elementary particle yet to be discovered in the standard model of modern physics.  This is physics likely a year or two beyond you if you are in a field where knowledge of quantum mechanics and general relativity is required.  The Higgs Boson, if found, would tell us much about the electro-weak symmetry breaking required for particles to gain mass.  The LHC will also be asking other very interesting questions.

Current science can take us back no further than 10-45s after the big expansion began.  That is the absolute earliest time available to modern scientific knowledge.  To assume that someone, or something created energy is a logical error.  It is also possible that it was always there, just in a different form.  Remember what happens when you ass-u-me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

Quote
You may find it very easy to poke holes in religion because it is man made

I'm glad you admit that your religion is man made.  We don't have to show you how your gods omniscience is illogical and your holy book contradictory and morally bankrupt.


Quote
but the supernatural (those dimensions higher than 3) you will find is much more real.

Your definition of supernatural is wrong.  Supernatural events are events outside the realm of natural law or phenomenon.  Extra dimensions do not fit into this category.  You are also wrong about the number of observed dimensions.  There are four.  Three spatial dimensions and time.  You should take a modern physics course.


Quote
I believe in a God because from my observation nature makes that obvious; I believe in the God described in the Bible from experinces and faith.

I don't understand this.  What observations make your specific god obvious?


Quote
As educated people you will want to have your own theories as opposed to attacking those you find uncomfortable.

As a rational, educated man of 25, I want to live my life based on the real world.  Whatever that world may be.  It would be nice if I could live forever.  Unfortunately, that is not the case.  Many find the thought that when they die, they will be dead forever uncomfortable.  I do not.

I can't wait to see your evidence that god exists.  Then we can move on to which specific religion he created.
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Offline one armed man

Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2008, 05:23:16 AM »


 To assume that someone, or something created energy is a logical error.  It is also possible that it was always there, just in a different form.  Remember what happens when you ass-u-me?

Is it not logical when one finds a structure to assume someone built it, is it not the same logic when one finds structure in nature and existence for that matter.  Science is based on assumptions of observed phenomena (existence counts as a phenomenon correct?). 
Also If time exists how can anything have 'always' been there?

Quote
I'm glad you admit that your religion is man made.  We don't have to show you how your gods omniscience is illogical and your holy book contradictory and morally bankrupt.

I do not have a religion I simply believe in the existence of God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit



Quote
Your definition of supernatural is wrong.  Supernatural events are events outside the realm of natural law or phenomenon.  Extra dimensions do not fit into this category.  You are also wrong about the number of observed dimensions.  There are four.  Three spatial dimensions and time.  You should take a modern physics course.

I would disagree.  I hypothesize that what is commonly referred to as 'supernatural' is actually higher dimensions existing in and above natural law and phenomenon. People assume that the supernatural referrs to anything outside natural law because things in the supernatural appear to break natural law, emphasis on 'appear' many things in natural law appeared to break other natural law until a higher natural law was found; such as the mystery of how protons in atomic nuclei stay together, it was mystery until strong nuclear force was discovered.
 I wont argue on what modern physics defines as dimensions except to say that dimension refers directions in space.  Physics may consist of natural law but a physics course costs lots of arbitrary currency!


Quote
I don't understand this.  What observations make your specific god obvious?

Let me rephrase to clear up any confusion.  I believe in a creator because of observations in nature.  I believe in the God of the Bible through personal experience with that God and blind faith. 
Is not existence a good enough observation to warrant the assumption of a creator? not to mention the structure of atom, DNA strand, or solar system.
I assume that because structure on Earth does not simply happen out of nothing that also structure in the universe and the universe itself does not occur out nothing.





Quote
I can't wait to see your evidence that god exists.
 

If no creator then how does existence occur?  As far as real science goes people who believe in a creator have a more comprehensive view on the universe than modern science because the theory of a creator has yet to find its equal or at least a equal that makes logical sense.
Please use your logic and tell me how the universe exists. 
(Evolution does not count not only does it not explain existence as whole but it also cannot describe life on earth logically; only by faith can I believe in evolution)
Quote
we can move on to which specific religion he created.

By the definition of religion man created it not God.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Reality Is Paramount [#656]
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2008, 07:41:13 AM »
Is it not logical when one finds a structure to assume someone built it, is it not the same logic when one finds structure in nature and existence for that matter.

No, that's not logical at all.  What does an undesigned object look like, OAM?  Unless you can tell what an undesigned object looks like, there's no rational reason to believe that you can distinguish designed objects from not-designed objects.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.