Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself

[Mrjason]

I don't really understand the  premise of an earthly existence in the context of the above.

Ok so earth many be the quality control testing ground in gods angel production but why does he doubt his own work if he is all powerful/knowing etc?

If god wants to get people to heaven quicker why not cut out the middle man and create a new class of angel so we're already in heaven?

Am I getting the wrong end of the stick here?

[Anfauglir]

If god wants to get people to heaven quicker why not cut out the middle man and create a new class of angel so we're already in heaven?

There is a particular state of being that one must be in, in order to enter heaven (apparently).  Earthly life, as you say, is apparently the way that this state is attained.

However, it would be entirely possible for an omnipotent god to create life, in that particular state of being.  It could create them standing at the gates of heaven, and with whatever memories or experiences they needed to have.  They could further be created with "free will", and with no conception that any of their memories were not really obtained.

An omnipotent god could do all that - to say it could not do so is to suggest there are things god is unable to do.

There is further the argument that a loving god could do nothing other than that.  If a god could make it so that EVERY being it creates got immediately into heaven, it would have to be a particularly callous or indifferent god to instead choose a method of creation that would ensure billions would NOT enter its heaven.

A loving god would create us all in a fit state for heaven - the fact that this does not happen means god is NOT all loving.

The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.

[magicmiles]

The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.

Couldn't an omnipotent God also create mankind for reasons that fall outside your consideration of the possibilities?

[Azdgari]

He covered that one, magicmiles.  It falls under the "not loving" category he mentioned.

[magicmiles]

No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.

[Mrjason]

Anfauglir, cheers for your reply. It makes sense to me.

[Mrjason]

No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.

I think Anfauglir's response was based on what has been said in the bible.
 
Is there a part where god says "I've got a big secret, but I'm not telling you"

If so why bother with all of the rest of it?

[magicmiles]

Actually, I haven't read the entire thread so I probably shouldn't have commented at all. Shame on me.

[Mrjason]

Actually, I haven't read the entire thread so I probably shouldn't have commented at all. Shame on me.

The possibilities that Anfauglir offers are based what we have been told in the bible.
Yes maybe this is flawed human logic but why would some things be made abundantly clear and other issues seem to be obscure.

I'd still be interested to hear your take on why this is.

[Azdgari]

No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.

This makes no sense as written, mm.  Did you mean to say something else?  You're saying here that Anfauglir didn't cover the "something other than what we can think of" category...because it was one of the possibilities he mentioned?  If he did, then wouldn't that mean that he did cover that possibility? 

[Anfauglir]

The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.

Couldn't an omnipotent God also create mankind for reasons that fall outside your consideration of the possibilities?

I don't know - could he?

An omnipotent god would be able to create mankind in the state I outlined - where every single creation was entirely suited for heaven, and where nobody suffered or was tormented for eternity.

That has not happened, so if an omnipotent god exists, I can only see the other option as being that it is not loving.  If you wish to argue that there is an omnipotent, loving god, then you'd need to explain why a loving god, who was capable of ensuring nobody ever suffered, instead chose an option where many millions did.

[Azdgari]

^^ And why you, as a human, took it upon yourself to judge it to be good/loving.

[lotanddaughters]

The existence of an earthly realm means god is either not loving, or not omnipotent - or perhaps both.  Or, alternatively, that there IS no god.  Either way, there seems little reason to worship such a being.

Couldn't an omnipotent God also create mankind for reasons that fall outside your consideration of the possibilities?

I don't know - could he?

An omnipotent god would be able to create mankind in the state I outlined - where every single creation was entirely suited for heaven, and where nobody suffered or was tormented for eternity.

That has not happened, so if an omnipotent god exists, I can only see the other option as being that it is not loving.  If you wish to argue that there is an omnipotent, loving god, then you'd need to explain why a loving god, who was capable of ensuring nobody ever suffered, instead chose an option where many millions did.

Yeah, MM, and before you say, "It's because God gave us free will because He doesn't want a bunch of robots mindlessly worshipping Him", remember that if this is true, then because of "free will" there will be raping and killing in Heaven. You can't have your cake and eat it too, Motherfucker.

[pianodwarf]

You can't have your cake and eat it too, Motherfucker.

That's too far over the top.  Tone it down.

[junebug72]

Yes, I'm sure that IS what you want.  It means that you can ignore all the hard questions that you've been asked.  Sorry, Junebug, it doesn't work that way.  You've made statements, you need to either explain them, or retract them.  Here are my questions again.....

So you are on record as saying that death is a GOOD thing, because - in your view - it transports people faster to be with god.

That is NOT what I said, that is YOUR interpretation of what I said,I am very sorry that I am having trouble articulating what I mean so that it is understood the way I meant it. I'm not trying to avoid any questions, but there are so many. I will have to admit I was overwhelmed.

So given that is the case, why should I feed the starving?  Why should I help the next person in want that I see?  If it gets them faster to god - to somewhere "much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED" - then why should I be so evil as to feed them?  Better surely to let them die and speed them to the paradise you are sure exists?

Because that is not caring about others. The answer you're referring to was why God don't feed starving children, He wants us to help each other and my point is that when we don't God is there to relieve that person of their suffering.

You also didn't actually answer my question about your son.  You waffled around the issue, but didn't actually answer the direct question I asked.  You picked up on one aspect, to avoid answering the main point - so I've removed the diversion, so it is clear exactly what I am asking.

When your son was hooked on drugs, it was a path that would lead him swiftly to "somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. (He would be) with God".  So....(w)hy did you take that evil action, denying him entry to a glorious place, free from the world of greed and united with god?

I welcome your questions Ang, I thought I answered your question, I'm sorry you didn't like my answer. I have never said that humans should not help humans, this pleases God. Just like I have said repeatedly WE should feed the hungry, WE should Love and Protect our children, and WE should stop hurting each other. How could I have pleased God if I had denied my son that precious LOVE that saved him from a life of despair, because to me the drugs would not have hurt him nearly as bad as a mother that didn't care.

It's okay for god not to help - you say - because it gets people to him sooner.  If you honestly and truly believe that, WHY do you try to help them live a little longer in this terrible world?  Why not just cut ALL aid now, and speed them to heaven?  Think how happy they will be!  How can we dare deny them that?  How can we even keep them from it for a day?

That is not what I said and you know it.  God's heart breaks infinity times ours every time we lose a child or one of us is murdered or raped or molested,etc.. I understand that it is best for mankind to eliminate these problems without God's "physical" help. I also understand that we need His spiritual guidance to show us the way.

[Astreja]

I understand that it is best for mankind to eliminate these problems without God's "physical" help.

If it's up to us to solve our problems, and your god either cannot or will not help in any substantive way, then your god is superfluous.

Why worship it at all, Junebug?  It's not behaving in a respectworthy manner if it refuses to use its powers for people who desperately need help, and whose circumstances preclude timely rescue by humans.  Worshipping such a do-nothing god really isn't very satisfying at all.

[Anfauglir]

It's okay for god not to help - you say - because it gets people to him sooner.  If you honestly and truly believe that, WHY do you try to help them live a little longer in this terrible world?  Why not just cut ALL aid now, and speed them to heaven?  Think how happy they will be!  How can we dare deny them that?  How can we even keep them from it for a day?

That is not what I said and you know it.  God's heart breaks infinity times ours every time we lose a child or one of us is murdered or raped or molested,etc..

No.  I DON'T know it Junebug.  You said very clearly that

God is the cure for death, those children aren't dead they are somewhere else much more glorious than here. Saved from this world of GREED. They are with God.

  (I note that when you responded you ensured this quote was removed, so I've put it back in).

So why on earth does god's heart break when someone dies?  You've said that dying is NOT a bad thing to god - my heart never breaks over something I think is good.

(god) wants us to help each other and my point is that when we don't God is there to relieve that person of their suffering.

But again, why bother?  If we do nothing, they die, god steps in, and straight off to eternal happiness.  Are you honestly trying to tell me that another day of slightly-releived pain and hopelessness is BETTER than spending that day in heaven?

What you SEEM to be saying is that people need to suffer, because (in some fashion) this is a Good Thing for the people that help them.  Me, I'm not that selfish.  I'm prepared to take the hit myself, to not polish my soul that little bit, if by doing so I prevent some poor soul from reaching Heaven as soon as they can. 

But let's assume your god's heart DOES break every time someone is raped, or murdered, or whatever.  I find that very hard to believe.  He is an omnipotent being, and if he didn't want those things to happen, they would not happen.  But as you point out, he DOES want them to happen - because if they didn't, people like you wouldn't get to be a liiiiitle bit better for helping them.  So god allows those people to continue to suffer for YOUR benefit, Junebug.  Like I say, I'm not that selfish to want people to suffer on my account.

I wonder....does your god in some way engineer suffering, so that others can help them?  He certainly allows suffering to continue, so its not a big stretch to suggest that he maybe nudges some people into suffering.  But either way, what you need to consider is this.

Your son suffered so that YOU could help him and reap the benefit.  And this was good in your god's eyes.

Like I say - I'm not that selfish.

[magicmiles]

No, he hasn't. It's easy to tell he hasn't, because it was one of his possibilities.

This makes no sense as written, mm.  Did you mean to say something else?  You're saying here that Anfauglir didn't cover the "something other than what we can think of" category...because it was one of the possibilities he mentioned?  If he did, then wouldn't that mean that he did cover that possibility? 

It did to me at the time. Now I'm too tired to work out what I meant.

Anyway, as I said, I shouldn't have entered this thread at all.

[junebug72]

Never thought about it much until I started talking in this forum.

That's a good thing.

  Actually God is the same now as He has always been,a loving devoted Creator.

I wish we could make you begin to look at how much more amazing creation is w/o god, but with possible random processes and alot of time.

.......... of what bad religion has done to society.

It's not the beginning that makes me cling to God, it's the end. Yes being in awe of existence, is how I know God's there, but the comfort of having a Grand Master of Truth and Knowledge, to guide me through the process is the ultimate motivation.

 

[Anfauglir]

Whoah - way to dodge the questions!  Seems to be a common theme with you Junebug.  I note you ducked out of the other thread when things got too hard for you.  Sorry, but you are NOT going to be allowed to dodge and prevaricate, not when you keep making assertions of fact.

I just wanted to let you know I checked out that other thread and I don't see what you're problem with me leaving that conversation is. I answered all the difficult questions.

Did you now?  Funny, didn't see an answer to my last post.  Specifically:

I wonder....does your god in some way engineer suffering, so that others can help them?  He certainly allows suffering to continue, so its not a big stretch to suggest that he maybe nudges some people into suffering.  But either way, what you need to consider is this.

Your son suffered so that YOU could help him and reap the benefit.  And this was good in your god's eyes.

Like I say - I'm not that selfish.

[fides]

Okay I know this may sound stupid, but can you elaborate more as to how thats contradicting? I`m not disagreeing, I just literally don`t understand Dx

[Azdgari]

You may have to be a bit more specific...it's been quite a few pages.  Do you mean the opening post?