Author Topic: Crazy sh it.  (Read 4136 times)

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Online wright

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2013, 05:56:28 PM »
12M, I'm confused. You've said before you don't doubt that vaccines work, and most of your objections seem to be that you don't like vaccination being mandatory for anyone, period. Is that a fair statement of your position?
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2013, 06:40:26 PM »
I know I am pro-vaccine. I haven't had a neighbor die of tetanus since 1954. I haven't had a friend die of polio since 1955. I have a friend who is very much alive because she received the rabies vaccine after being bitten by an infected racoon. The things that don't have good vaccines, like malaria, affected many friends who ended up in SE Asia during the war and my niece, who traveled into the jungles of South America and contracted it there. But she didn't get many other diseases because there were vaccines to prevent them.

My friend Nancy is deaf because her mother contracted Rubella, a variety of measles, when pregnant. No vaccine existed at the time. Now it does. But how many cases of that disease do we get every year because people are frickin' afraid of side-effects? And how many additional deaf kids do we get? Not many, I hope. But that number could be virtually zero.

Recent studies show that people who get rubella have face numerous health risks later in life. The chances of contracting cataracts rises from .5% to 30%. The chance of contracting diabetes rises 20 times. These are serious numbers. How many people deciding not to get measles shots know that?

To be employed in the U.S. often means that certain things will be required, like drug tests and the like. Insisting that a health care worker get a shot seems relatively mild, in comparison. At least it isn't a violation of due process. And a health care worker who has more faith in god than in medicine isn't the sort of person I want drawing my blood or administering an IV for me, because they might just decide the heck with the medicine and depend on their god to save me.

The people who were concerned with mercury in vaccine causing autism weren't any happier once the mercury was taken out of the medicine. They also ignored the fact that if their kids went out and played in the dirt, they would get exposed to many times more mercury because it is a naturally occurring mineral that is more or less everywhere. And it isn't just the pharmaceutical companies that study this stuff. It is also the FDA, which has a reputation throughout the world of being tougher than it needs to be about most everything.

Our life expectancies aren't longer just because we all go out and buy the exercise equipment advertised on the Home Shopping Network. It is longer because we have made the world generally safer, provided more consistent food supplies, learned how to keep ourselves cleaner and, probably most importantly,  because of modern medicine.

I understand the freedom argument. I understand that health care workers shouldn't be required to get shots. But I also understand that I, as a person going to the hospital to get repaired or healed, should be free to not have my health condition worsened by an ill health care worker whose transmittable disease could have been prevented.

If the KKK wants to make inoculations optional, I'm fine with that. But I, for one, would prefer to be treated competent medical professionals that understand the concept of medical risk and the consequences of infecting others. In fact I demand it. If they have no respect for the process, what respect are they going to have for me?
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2013, 06:49:59 PM »
I have been vaccinated against tetanus recently......I work with a lot of metal objects and sometimes get cut,makes sense for me to be protected,did it on my own. I looked at the risk and assessed them....took the shot.

  As far as making somebody no,two of my kids (out of 4) that were vaccinated against Whooping cough (pertussis) contracted it. So did it work?

 I also have a 4 year old grandchild who suffers from Autism,can I say it was from vaccine,I can't know for sure,was he normal before his booster ,yes.

 Can they make a safe vaccine without the risk of permanent damage,if no,why?
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2013, 06:59:32 PM »
 PP I am not against vaccines,making somebody take one against their will,then we have a problem. Religious or otherwise. You guys sound like the fear mongers who thought you get AIDS from a Gay man looking at you.

 Nurses around North America are refusing annual flu shots,for health and other reasons(religious)and the Unions are backing them up....and as Mooby pointed out to work in hospitals means mandatory vaccinations from various diseases,but I would think its more to protect the health care worker from the patient than the other way round.....why,because people lie
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 07:14:43 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2013, 07:25:46 PM »
PP I am not against vaccines,making somebody take one against their will,then we have a problem. Religious or otherwise. You guys sound like the fear mongers who thought you get AIDS from a Gay man looking at you.

 Nurses around North America are refusing annual flu shots,for health and other reasons(religious)and the Unions are backing them up....and as Mooby pointed out to work in hospitals means mandatory vaccinations from various diseases,but I would think its more to protect the health care worker from the patient than the other way round.....why because people lie

If there are definite health reasons for nurses not to get flu shots, then there may be real reasons not to do it. But saying they aren't going to get a shot simply because it against their religion seems silly.

And of course I'm sorry about your grandson and his autism, but it has been pointed out that a) autism rates are the same for inoculated and non-inoculated children and b) the effects of preventable diseases include unnecessary death and long-term disabilities. Plus the types of long-term effects I noted in my last post, such as a huge increase in the likelihood of getting diabetes. These are not trivial matters.

I am going to take a wild guess and say that something in our environment, some new factor (presumably man-made) is causing the huge increase in autism cases. Along with perhaps a wider range of behavior disorders being labeled autism. So I've no doubt that there are things we humans can do to decrease the autism rate. I just don't see the vaccine connection.

I did some googling and see that many nurses (sometimes as many as half) don't get flu shots, but they, in exchange for not getting them, agree to wear masks while treating patients. The fired nurses didn't want to do that. Is that asking too much? Are doctors and nurses given an option in the operating room? Of course not. Like I said earlier, I have a right not to get infected by the person who is supposed to be helping me get better, don't I?
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2013, 07:42:07 PM »
 I understand it is way to early to blame autism on one particular cause,but I have seen the night and day behaviour(before and after vaccination )first hand. He is a happy guy,but does not talk and 99% of his awake life is in a world all his own,wish I could visit it.

 We also have fast food,soda by the gallon,designer drugs like Ecstasy,cows being fed cows and thousands of other factors that could contribute. AS I have stated,not against vaccinations as a preventive measure,but as a child,you have no choice unless a parent objects and as a health practitioner,apparently you get fired for making a choice for yourself.

 You actually pay a tax on your vaccinations that goes into the vaccine injury fund for the American government to pay-out people injured by vaccines,how F'd up is that
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2013, 07:51:37 PM »
PP I am not against vaccines,making somebody take one against their will,then we have a problem. Religious or otherwise. You guys sound like the fear mongers who thought you get AIDS from a Gay man looking at you.

Bolds mine. That certainly sounds like a mischaracterization of everyone who's disagreed with you. Where, specifically, is a post that has that kind of tone?
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Offline stuffin

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2013, 07:57:45 PM »
General question for the board;

We know the flu is transferred via the airborne pathway and by contact with hard surfaces. With that in mind;
Why aren't all the cashiers in the country (Wal-Mart, pharmacies, supermarkets and so on) required to get vaccinated?

First off, you come within 5 - 10ft of them (airborne), plus they touch every item (contact) you bring home, then you and your family touch those items. Big time vector and I have never seen any hand sanitizers available to these workers.

In medicine they use the term infection control. I do not believe you can control (completely) the transmission of infective agents. For instance, they are saying this year's flu shot is about 65-80% effective. Everyone who takes a dump wipes their butt then pulls up their pants BEFORE washing their hands! Now your trousers, zipper and belt are contaminated, especially if your TP rips. Scratch your nuts then shake hands with that person you hate at work. One of my favorites was a doctor who was germ-o-phobic. He carried a hanky in his pocket and took it out whenever he had to open a door. He would put the hanky back in his pocket after each use. I never understood why he kept touching his germ infested hanky. I would love to culture his hanky after a day’s use.

My advice; Wash your hands and clean contact surfaces with the disinfectant wipes as much as possible. 

Apologize for rambling, I realize it is serious stuff, but I find this infection stuff is kind of stupid.




For those who like freedom of choice regarding their bodies.......

Flu shot cons:

It may not be safe for you: If you are allergic to eggs, then the flu shot could be no-go for you. Why's that? The flu vaccine is cultivated inside of chicken eggs.

Being flu-free isn't guaranteed: I know, it's a sucky thing. However, just because you get the flu shot doesn't mean you're in the clear.

Protection isn't immediate: It takes about two weeks for the vaccine to really kick in.

There could be some mercury in there: A seasonal flu shot has small amounts of mercury added as a preservative. Mercury has been linked to certain brain and nerve disorders and that fact alone may make those on-the-fence about getting the shot uneasy.

There can be side effects: Some people develop symptoms ranging from soreness and swelling at the area of injection to low-grade fever and achiness. The good news? Generally these clear up within a day or two.


There are single dose mercury free shots available, check with your provider.
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2013, 08:55:52 PM »
General question for the board;

We know the flu is transferred via the airborne pathway and by contact with hard surfaces. With that in mind;
Why aren't all the cashiers in the country (Wal-Mart, pharmacies, supermarkets and so on) required to get vaccinated?

First off, you come within 5 - 10ft of them (airborne), plus they touch every item (contact) you bring home, then you and your family touch those items. Big time vector and I have never seen any hand sanitizers available to these workers.

Cashiers typically have a lot less direct contact with people who are already vulnerable (other illness, undergoing chemo, newborns) than health care providers. It definitely would be a good idea for cashiers to use hand sanitizers regularly, but in the US at least that's usually left to the individual or their employer.

In medicine they use the term infection control. I do not believe you can control (completely) the transmission of infective agents. For instance, they are saying this year's flu shot is about 65-80% effective. Everyone who takes a dump wipes their butt then pulls up their pants BEFORE washing their hands! Now your trousers, zipper and belt are contaminated, especially if your TP rips. Scratch your nuts then shake hands with that person you hate at work. One of my favorites was a doctor who was germ-o-phobic. He carried a hanky in his pocket and took it out whenever he had to open a door. He would put the hanky back in his pocket after each use. I never understood why he kept touching his germ infested hanky. I would love to culture his hanky after a day’s use.

My advice; Wash your hands and clean contact surfaces with the disinfectant wipes as much as possible. 

Apologize for rambling, I realize it is serious stuff, but I find this infection stuff is kind of stupid.

I don't think you're making light of it. I'm just surprised a nurse doesn't see the advantage of having as many opportunities for infection as possible eliminated, including having hospital workers vaccinated when appropriate.


For those who like freedom of choice regarding their bodies.......

Flu shot cons:

It may not be safe for you: If you are allergic to eggs, then the flu shot could be no-go for you. Why's that? The flu vaccine is cultivated inside of chicken eggs.

Being flu-free isn't guaranteed: I know, it's a sucky thing. However, just because you get the flu shot doesn't mean you're in the clear.

Protection isn't immediate: It takes about two weeks for the vaccine to really kick in.

There could be some mercury in there: A seasonal flu shot has small amounts of mercury added as a preservative. Mercury has been linked to certain brain and nerve disorders and that fact alone may make those on-the-fence about getting the shot uneasy.

There can be side effects: Some people develop symptoms ranging from soreness and swelling at the area of injection to low-grade fever and achiness. The good news? Generally these clear up within a day or two.


There are single dose mercury free shots available, check with your provider.

You have some good points here, but the "mercury in vaccines" argument has been thoroughly debunked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_in_vaccines
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2013, 09:33:03 PM »
stuffin is right about hand washing, but stay away from antibacterial soaps and wipes. They appear to be creating super-germs (antibiotic-resistant bacteria) which kill more people every year than HIV/AIDS. If you are creeped out about germs, use some alcohol after washing with soap and water. But not antibacterial products.

And face it, outside of the health profession, there isn't much you can do to avoid germs. Grocery stores? How many people have handled the can of soup before you pick it up. How many folks have touched the carrot you just bought, or the potato, or the onion? Sure, you'lll wash the veggies later, but what about touching them before you wash them? How many people have pushed your cart around before you. How many people have looked at that magazine or opened the door to the dairy section.

Of course my supermarket tries to help. By offering antibacterial wipes for cart handles. I know that they have been told about how unwise that is, but they insist that customers want the wipes so they continue to offer them.

All the stores around here do that, so I can't just change stores in protest.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2013, 09:58:09 PM »

There could be some mercury in there: A seasonal flu shot has small amounts of mercury added as a preservative. Mercury has been linked to certain brain and nerve disorders and that fact alone may make those on-the-fence about getting the shot uneasy.


There are single dose mercury free shots available, check with your provider.

Quote
You have some good points here, but the "mercury in vaccines" argument has been thoroughly debunked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_in_vaccines

Sorry, didn't fully explain, just cut and pasted for general knowledge. What I was referring to with the mercury in flu shots was over time (year after year of getting mercury in vaccinations) may contribute to dementia and Alzheimer's. Jury still out but there could be a link. (and damned if I can't locate it now, will look more tomorrow).
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2013, 10:01:04 PM »
stuffin is right about hand washing, but stay away from antibacterial soaps and wipes. They appear to be creating super-germs (antibiotic-resistant bacteria) which kill more people every year than HIV/AIDS. If you are creeped out about germs, use some alcohol after washing with soap and water. But not antibacterial products.

And face it, outside of the health profession, there isn't much you can do to avoid germs. Grocery stores? How many people have handled the can of soup before you pick it up. How many folks have touched the carrot you just bought, or the potato, or the onion? Sure, you'lll wash the veggies later, but what about touching them before you wash them? How many people have pushed your cart around before you. How many people have looked at that magazine or opened the door to the dairy section.

Good points, PP. Putting antibacterial agents in so many consumer products is really starting to cost us, and many scientists / health specialists have been warning about it for decades.

And I agree with you and stuffin that trying to disinfect everything and everyone rapidly approaches a point of diminishing returns. It just seems to me that hospitals are one place where relatively stringent and comprehensive efforts to reduce spreading infectious disease are justified.

Sorry, didn't fully explain, just cut and pasted for general knowledge. What I was referring to with the mercury in flu shots was over time (year after year of getting mercury in vaccinations) may contribute to dementia and Alzheimer's. Jury still out but there could be a link. (and damned if I can't locate it now, will look more tomorrow).

Understood. Thanks, stuffin.
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2013, 08:41:25 AM »
Sorry, didn't fully explain, just cut and pasted for general knowledge. What I was referring to with the mercury in flu shots was over time (year after year of getting mercury in vaccinations) may contribute to dementia and Alzheimer's. Jury still out but there could be a link. (and damned if I can't locate it now, will look more tomorrow).

First of all, a correction: the shot does not contain mercury, it contains thimerosal, which is a molecule that has mercury as a constitutive element.  That's a very different matter.

Secondly: when thimerosal is metabolized, it does create a form of mercury, specifically, ethylmercury.  However, ethylmercury does not bioaccumulate, so it is highly unlikely to have any kind of a long-lasting effect.  (Short-term effects may be possible -- the matter has not been well-investigated.)
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2013, 06:43:14 PM »
Gee, science lessons! Thanks guys.

And as I mentioned in a earlier post, your kids get exposed directly to real live mercury every time they go out and play in the dirt. As do you, every time you go out and play in the dirt. Far more than is in vaccinations, regardless of the form.

Generally speaking, if one is going to be afraid of something, it should actually be scary. Otherwise it is a waste of time.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2013, 07:34:02 PM »
Gee, science lessons! Thanks guys.

And as I mentioned in a earlier post, your kids get exposed directly to real live mercury every time they go out and play in the dirt. As do you, every time you go out and play in the dirt. Far more than is in vaccinations, regardless of the form.

Generally speaking, if one is going to be afraid of something, it should actually be scary. Otherwise it is a waste of time.
IF we are exposed to that much mercury,It is either harmless and we have nothing to worry about,or the concentrations SO low,we have nothing to worry about

 Comparing mercury in the ground to mercury in a pure form,the liquid metal we can see and touch,is that like comparing uranium in the ground and the extracted uranium that runs a power plant? I ask what your opinion is
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2013, 07:37:54 PM »
Sorry, didn't fully explain, just cut and pasted for general knowledge. What I was referring to with the mercury in flu shots was over time (year after year of getting mercury in vaccinations) may contribute to dementia and Alzheimer's. Jury still out but there could be a link. (and damned if I can't locate it now, will look more tomorrow).

First of all, a correction: the shot does not contain mercury, it contains thimerosal, which is a molecule that has mercury as a constitutive element.  That's a very different matter.

Secondly: when thimerosal is metabolized, it does create a form of mercury, specifically, ethylmercury.  However, ethylmercury does not bioaccumulate, so it is highly unlikely to have any kind of a long-lasting effect.  (Short-term effects may be possible -- the matter has not been well-investigated.)
Is there a study to back that ? If the short term effects are not well investigated,are the long term effects? The Video I posted had the Doctor talking about studies done on people where the people who developed fevers after the shot were excluded from the study,does this make sense?
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2013, 07:53:42 PM »
Gee, science lessons! Thanks guys.

And as I mentioned in a earlier post, your kids get exposed directly to real live mercury every time they go out and play in the dirt. As do you, every time you go out and play in the dirt. Far more than is in vaccinations, regardless of the form.

Generally speaking, if one is going to be afraid of something, it should actually be scary. Otherwise it is a waste of time.
IF we are exposed to that much mercury,It is either harmless and we have nothing to worry about,or the concentrations SO low,we have nothing to worry about

 Comparing mercury in the ground to mercury in a pure form,the liquid metal we can see and touch,is that like comparing uranium in the ground and the extracted uranium that runs a power plant? I ask what your opinion is

The dosage is incredibly small. But larger than what is in inoculations. Which, as pianodwarf pointed out, contain a form of mercury that is safer than the natural stuff I'm talking about.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2013, 08:28:24 PM »
So then it is extremely safe in your opinion to play in the dirt,but less safe than getting regular injections. Where are the health risks exactly?

 As I asked mercury in a pure form is hardly the same mercury in minute trace amounts in the dirt,if it were less safe playing in the dirt than getting injections we would ALL have some form of brain dysfunction.....no?
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2013, 09:09:37 PM »
He is asking for studies NOT done by the vaccine companies.
Good luck on finding that for most drugs, not just vaccines.  Scientific studies should be repeatable, but in reality studies cost money so unless you have a financial stake or can talk someone into giving you a grant, you're probably not going to be testing every new drug that hits the market.  The video author is welcome to publish one himself, though.

However, what he fails to mention in the video is that clinical trials are done in multiple phases.  Phase 4 trials involve monitoring the population after a drug has been approved for any adverse effects that didn't appear during research.  Some doctors like to give new drugs a little lag (usually about a year) before prescribing them for this reason, unless it's a landmark drug.  But the flu shot has been basically unchanged (other than the virus strains) for ~60 years, so the odds of some new scary new adverse effect suddenly appearing are quite low.

Quote
I get you are on the Pro vaccine side.
Yes, I am very pro-vaccine.  It's almost a shame that we're so far removed from the days where vaccines didn't exist that we have the luxury of being able to condemn them.


I also have a 4 year old grandchild who suffers from Autism,can I say it was from vaccine,I can't know for sure,was he normal before his booster ,yes.
Autism shows up as a developmental delay in the first few years of life, during which children are receiving vaccines at most appointments.  Autism is often caught in screening at one of those appointments.  Anything done during the first 2-3 years of life is going to look like it's associated with autism, because that's when autism becomes observable.


as Mooby pointed out to work in hospitals means mandatory vaccinations from various diseases,but I would think its more to protect the health care worker from the patient than the other way round.....why,because people lie
Depends on the vaccine.  For something with potentially chronic effects (like Hep B), it's absolutely to protect the employee and reduce hospital liability in case of a work-related injury resulting in exposure to a potentially chronic illness.  With stuff like chicken pox, rubella, measles, flu, etc., it's more to prevent vulnerable populations that can be seriously harmed by these illnesses.


The Video I posted had the Doctor talking about studies done on people where the people who developed fevers after the shot were excluded from the study,does this make sense?
No, the claim made by the PHD in nutrition (not trained in pharmacology) doesn't make sense.  And when things don't make sense, we should investigate.

Has an acute illness and/or an oral temperature greater than or equal to 100.0 degrees Fahrenheit, within 72 hours of vaccination (This may result in a temporary delay of vaccination).

Oops, he lied.  When the woman showed up to be vaccinated, if she admitted to being sick or having a fever over 100.0F in the prior 72 hours, she was excluded or delayed.  In addition, temperature (and other vitals) was taken before the vaccine was administered to make sure she was below 100.0.  This was to ensure that if a fever did show up, they would know it was caused by the shot.

What actually happened in the study was that each woman was given a thermometer and was told to take her temperature daily for 8 days (Day 0 - Day 7).  1 person out of 120 reported fever after the first vaccination, and 1 person out of 103 reported fever after the second vaccination.  0 patients reported vaccine-associated serious adverse events within 180 days of receiving the first vaccination.  (Study Results)

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2013, 09:12:48 PM »
So then it is extremely safe in your opinion to play in the dirt,but less safe than getting regular injections. Where are the health risks exactly?

 As I asked mercury in a pure form is hardly the same mercury in minute trace amounts in the dirt,if it were less safe playing in the dirt than getting injections we would ALL have some form of brain dysfunction.....no?

The point is, unless you are playing in the dirt near a large mercury deposit that has been mined carelessly, both are very safe.

I had a friend who was invited to a small private mercury mine in Oregon, and when he got there he could see little drops of mercury puddled all over the ground. The miner told him that it was hard to extract the mercury and be nice and neat about it (it was a very careless private operation). I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want your kids playing around there.

When I was young, back in the 50's, we kids loved mercury. We used to break thermometers on purpose and play with the stuff. And I'm told it is absorbed through the skin. Of course I have no baseline to measure against when I ask if the mercury affected me negatively. I probably did it three or four times, enjoyed the metal rolling around in the palm of my hand, then threw it away.

So even in somewhat larger quantities it didn't fry me so much that I couldn't write a sentence or two about it.

If one is tempted to fear vaccines for their children because of stories they've heard, they should listen to doctors talk about the issue as well. Here is a link to a podcast I heard a year or two ago that explained the medical side of the issue. Yes the doctor interviewed is highly biased, given that he co-invented a vaccine which helps prevent rotavirus-caused diarrhea. A disease that, before 2006, killed half a million kids a year (and still kills many thousands in areas where the vaccine is not yet available). The vaccine reduces deaths by 85%.  Which I assume makes him prejudiced on this issue in the eyes of some. Nonetheless, a good podcast which gives the case for the medical side of the story.

Direct link to listen in browser:
http://ec.libsyn.com/p/9/d/4/9d4e7d657746c3a9/40-books-Offit2.mp3?d13a76d516d9dec20c3d276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d01cd803fd6ca5ea68c&c_id=3099750

Link to podcast web site with link to iTunes:
http://www.virginiacampbellmd.com/blog/2011/2/28/how-the-anti-vaccine-movement-threatens-us-all.html

Edit: changed confusing wording re: the mercury mine.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 09:14:31 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2013, 10:22:53 PM »
At no point have I said I was opposed to vaccines or vaccinations,my argument is about the choice,PP as your sig line is interesting as it also applies to the vaccination argument,where you think your right supersedes the rights of others.
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2013, 11:06:51 PM »
At no point have I said I was opposed to vaccines or vaccinations,my argument is about the choice,PP as your sig line is interesting as it also applies to the vaccination argument,where you think your right supersedes the rights of others.

Somewhere along the line I said that if half the nurses are refusing the flu shots (which is apparently the case), I trust that their reasons are good and that there must be things I don't know about the situation in general. Needless to say, I'm not impressed with the OP story, where nurses are refusing on religious grounds. I don't want to extend that choice to the operating room, however. I don't want doctors or nurses refusing to wash their hands before surgery, or refusing to wear masks while operating. Just like I don't want cops feeling free to test fire their guns in the direction of school playgrounds. Freedom is wonderful. But it doesn't apply to everything.

When it comes to kids vaccinations, I want to be sure that the parents are making their decisions based on facts, not hysteria. Now, my kids are grown, and survived their shots just fine, so I have no negative experience to draw upon. But I'm thinking that the fact that kids who get the measles have a 30 times greater risk of contracting glaucoma in the future and a 20 times risk of contracting diabetes (both being side effects that can show up in later life) is an important factor to consider. I think thato deciding not to inoculate my daughter and risk having her get her get measles 20 years later from another uninoculated child  while she is pregnant and her possibly giving birth to a deaf baby because of it is a relevant factor. That there are those that connect autism with vaccinations despite the fact that the autism rate between vaccinated and non-vaccinated children is the same seems like a no-brainer. That the onset of autism, the diagnosis of autism, happens at the same ages that vaccinations are given is coincidental.

Clearly the autism rate is going up. Clearly something is causing the problem. I assume it is environmental. I have no good reason to think it is inoculations.

Freedom is a good thing, most especially when it is used to make intelligent choices. Basing decisions related to freedom on bad info that can hurt others is not. I happen to trust the medical community when it comes to inoculating children. But I'll give nurses a pass on the flu thing, other than the religion crap that some use as an excuse.
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2013, 01:28:06 AM »
With the vaccinations,I do not object to someone(same as you) making a decision of their own after they do the research. Take it or get fired for any grounds is ludicrous,but that's just my opinion.

 As far as safety goes,I have seen the night and day effect on my grandson,until that happens to someone close you will never know. I know what he was like before and after the MMR.

 He will be lucky if he is ever a productive member of society,can I say for sure,no,will science uncover factors,maybe in the future. will it help him,no

 Thanks for your respectful response,and I apologize if I seem harsh here.
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2013, 01:36:31 AM »
Hey 12, we're talking. Not arguing. I don't think we disagree on much but it would be scarier if we agreed on everything.

There was no harshness detected or assumed. Be well, my friend, and of course I wish your grandson the best. Hopefully someone will figure it all out someday and find a way to reverse the effects. At least with science there is hope.
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2013, 10:41:01 AM »
Thanks PP and as science always finds new things,we may get answers. The thing is ,they have to be looking for the answers first.
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2013, 11:39:21 AM »
Thanks PP and as science always finds new things,we may get answers. The thing is ,they have to be looking for the answers first.

Understood. We may still be in the dark ages in some areas. And yes, money at times transcends the truth, which means there are major flaws in medicine and medical delivery. Hopefully not for long, though.
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2013, 10:30:18 PM »

First of all, a correction: the shot does not contain mercury, it contains thimerosal, which is a molecule that has mercury as a constitutive element.  That's a very different matter.

Secondly: when thimerosal is metabolized, it does create a form of mercury, specifically, ethylmercury.  However, ethylmercury does not bioaccumulate, so it is highly unlikely to have any kind of a long-lasting effect.  (Short-term effects may be possible -- the matter has not been well-investigated.)


Here is where I saw the information regarding thimerosal, all the other information appears accurate so I accepted to thimerosal stuff.
Quote
The flu vaccine contains mercury from thimerosal, a preservative added to prevent bacterial contamination. Mercury is toxic to the brain, nerve cells, arterial linings and has been linked to an increase in the risk of Alzheimer’s disease, dementia, memory loss, depression, anxiety, ADD, heart disease, hypertension and birth defects.


http://www.truestarhealth.com/members/cm_archives07ML4P1A10.html
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #85 on: January 12, 2013, 08:08:44 AM »
Here is where I saw the information regarding thimerosal, all the other information appears accurate so I accepted to thimerosal stuff.
Quote
The flu vaccine contains mercury from thimerosal, a preservative added to prevent bacterial contamination. Mercury is toxic to the brain, nerve cells, arterial linings and has been linked to an increase in the risk of Alzheimer’s disease, dementia, memory loss, depression, anxiety, ADD, heart disease, hypertension and birth defects.

http://www.truestarhealth.com/members/cm_archives07ML4P1A10.html

Again:  Thimerosal is a molecule that has an atom of mercury as a constitutive element.  It is therefore not really proper to say that the vaccine "contains mercury".  You cannot treat a molecule with an atom of mercury in its structure the same as elemental mercury, which is what the quote you give above is trying to do.

This is basic chemistry.  You cannot assume that a molecule will have the same properties as the atoms from which it is composed -- in fact, quite the contrary, that's almost never the case.  Perfect example: Hydrogen and oxygen are both gasses at room temperature and remain gasses unless cooled to extremely low temperatures.  However, if you combine two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen, they turn into another substance that is liquid at room temperature.

Also again: when thimerosal is metabolized by the body, the mercury it creates is ethylmercury, which does not bioaccumulate (the body excretes it).  Finally, even if the mercury in the flu vaccine did bioaccumulate, the amount of thimerosal in the flu vaccine is so small that being concerned about it is simply silly.  A typical flu shot contains approximately 25 micrograms of mercury.  The FDA's recommended daily limit on the intake of mercury is 0.4 micrograms per kilogram of body weight.  For a 150-pound adult, this equates to 27 micrograms of mercury, meaning that the amount of mercury in the flu vaccine is under the FDA's recommended limit for most adults.  And even if you happen to be a small woman (or a pre-teen, or whatever), and the flu shot does put you over the limit, you can compensate by staying away from fish for a few days.  Finally, if you're still worried about it after all that, there are also flu shots that are thimerosal-free, and all you have to do is ask for one.

Frankly, I think all the attention that some people pay to the mercury in the flu shot is pretty ridiculous.  Healthwise, most people should be worrying about things that are much more pressing, such as the amount of sodium and fat they're getting every single day, instead of the amount of mercury they're getting in their flu shot, which you get only once a year.
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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #86 on: January 12, 2013, 10:43:44 AM »
I was at Wal Mart today and the section with meds was full of people coughing and hacking.  I got away from it as fast as I could.
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