Author Topic: Crazy sh it.  (Read 4433 times)

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Offline Nick

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Crazy sh it.
« on: January 02, 2013, 05:07:49 PM »
8 people were fired from IU Health Goshen Hospital in Northern Indiana for refusing to get a flu shot.  The hospital put in a new policy for everyone, even volunteers and vendors.  They stated that patients with poor immune system would be at risk otherwise.  One of the 8, a lady named Joyce Gingrich...who is an oncology nurse, said it was against her religious beliefs.  She said she was a nondenominational Christian.  Another lady who was a hospicevolunteer said she could not get a flu shot because she was God-led.

Crazy sh it, but if I'm in the hospital I don't want sick people around me.  I would think they would welcome being protected from the flu.
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Offline rev45

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2013, 06:24:35 PM »
My mother is a non-denominational Christian and a nurse and she always gets a flu shot.  Mostly for herself but for those that she works with also.  It was never an issue that I can remember in my church going days.  Why would it be?  What would be the religious hurdle in the way?  I think those nurses who were fired are just afraid of getting a shot.
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Offline William

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2013, 07:34:07 PM »
Crazy sh it, but if I'm in the hospital I don't want sick people around me.  I would think they would welcome being protected from the flu.

Exactly right Nick. 

Makes me wonder about the training the nurses got on infectious diseases - probably had to read the book of Job for theory and practice mixing saliva in the dirt ...
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Offline wright

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2013, 08:48:11 PM »
The facepalm / jawdropping thing for me about this is that some of these morons were nurses :o That is some good cognitive dissonance they've got, to get their degrees and work in their field for even a few years and still find getting a flu shot on behalf of the people they're serving untenable.

If it was in my power, I'd bar them from using any technology more advanced than what we had in the Bronze Age from now on. I feel sorry for anyone who ends up under their care, if they're so distrustful of 21st-century medicine.

Here's a link:http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/236052/158/Hospital-in-Goshen-Ind-Fires-8-Workers-Who-Refuse-Flu-Shot
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2013, 08:37:02 AM »
Any bets on whether they will sue?
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2013, 09:46:48 AM »
Any bets on whether they will sue?

No I am not that kind of sucker
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2013, 04:52:09 AM »
SOOOO you say anybody and EVERYBODY needs a flu shot?try reading the side effects for any and all vaccinations/medicine your "health provider" may want to put you on .......some scary shit there

 They could easily mask any patients at risk of the flu because of serious illness.........why don't they?

 The nurses in BC Canada are refusing here too,it is not just religious nuts avoiding the flu shots
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 04:56:21 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Nick

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2013, 08:11:30 AM »
I don't think everyone should have to get a flu shot...even though they should.  But people working in medical facilities should.  You could easily be putting others at risk and in some cases high risk of death.  Your rights in such cases should end at the hospital door.  You are not forced to work at a hospital.

Why not stop getting polio and smallpox shots also.  Who knows what is in them?  Lets bring back smoking in hospitals also.

There must be limits when your choice affects the lives of others.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2013, 08:49:51 AM »
Why not stop getting polio and smallpox shots also.

I do get your point here, and I agree with it for the most part, but just for the record, smallpox vaccinations have been discontinued; they were stopped some time ago because smallpox has been eradicated.  We're very close to wiping out polio as well, and it can safely be assumed that once it has been, polio vaccinations will also be discontinued.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 08:53:13 AM by pianodwarf »
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2013, 02:59:30 PM »
Any bets on whether they will sue?

Somehow, in America, sueing is never against someone's religion.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2013, 03:15:36 PM »
I don't think everyone should have to get a flu shot...even though they should.  But people working in medical facilities should.  You could easily be putting others at risk and in some cases high risk of death.  Your rights in such cases should end at the hospital door.  You are not forced to work at a hospital.

Why not stop getting polio and smallpox shots also.  Who knows what is in them?  Lets bring back smoking in hospitals also.

There must be limits when your choice affects the lives of others.
So after flu shots what is next ..... what happens when the government starts deciding what they can do to you,take the abortion hoops they want to make women go through in some states,is that wrong?....like mandatory drug testing or abstention from alcohol or you will be fired. There is always a line in which they will expect you to cross at one time or another,will you conform or be fired?

 What about the suggestion those at high risk wear masks? there,that is an easy inexpensive alternative.....no?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2013, 03:18:33 PM »
I don't think everyone should have to get a flu shot...even though they should.  But people working in medical facilities should.  You could easily be putting others at risk and in some cases high risk of death.  Your rights in such cases should end at the hospital door.  You are not forced to work at a hospital.

Why not stop getting polio and smallpox shots also.  Who knows what is in them?  Lets bring back smoking in hospitals also.

There must be limits when your choice affects the lives of others.
Getting the flu shot reduces your risk it does not mean you can't get the flu.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2013, 04:10:08 PM »
Masks don't always work.  You can be sick for days before signs show.  I don't understand why this is a big deal.  Kids can't start school if they don't have all their shots. It's a flu shot for Thor's sake.  Work in fast foods if you don't want to get one.  If I'm in the hospital I want them to wash their hands,use clean knives on me, and not touch my food if they are sick.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2013, 05:51:01 PM »
Masks don't always work and neither does the flu shot 100% of the time and the risks of these shots come with dangerous side effects.

 Like I asked you will you line up for the next Government mandated "shot"?...You get your bird and swine flu shots? How about the probing of women before they have an abortion they want to "mandate" before a woman can have a procedure?......YOUR NEXT,for the next big thing.....of course unless you have a penis
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2013, 06:24:08 PM »
My understanding is that there are 3 categories of people who should not get flu shots.  Chemo patients, transplant patients, and people who have had Guillain-Barre Syndrome. 

People who come in regular contact with people in any of those categories, especially the first two, really need to be vaccinated to protect chemo patients and transplant patients. 

Failure to be vaccinated means that you are putting vulnerable people at risk.  And there is no way that an oncology nurse should be allowed NOT to get the vaccine unless s/he falls into one of the rare, exempt categories.

If someone I loved were going through chemo, I would like to feel secure in knowing that all medical professionals treating my loved one had been vaccinated, and were not putting my loved one at risk. 

Offline wright

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2013, 06:24:33 PM »
Masks don't always work and neither does the flu shot 100% of the time and the risks of these shots come with dangerous side effects.

Vaccines are an incredible advance in medicine. There are certainly legitimate reasons why some individuals shouldn't get them (mostly issues with allergies and the like). But even the non-immunized minority benefit from a majority of their fellows getting vaccinated, because a given disease then has far less vectors to harbor it. The side effects of vaccines are far outweighed by their benefits.

Like I asked you will you line up for the next Government mandated "shot"?...You get your bird and swine flu shots? How about the probing of women before they have an abortion they want to "mandate" before a woman can have a procedure?......YOUR NEXT,for the next big thing.....of course unless you have a penis

Seriously, you equate a hospital's policy of immunization for its care providers with the anti-choice lobby's attempts to shame women out of having control over their own bodies?

I find your distrust of vaccines surprising, given that European diseases decimated your Native American ancestors.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2013, 09:29:42 PM »
I do not have a distrust....the issue is the making it mandatory or lose your job......I have had many immunizations over the years and except for the ones in my infancy they were all VOLUNTARY

 I do not discount the benefits of vaccinations,I disagree they should take them or be fired,it is a flu shot not a smallpox vaccination........do you understand for religious or other reasons it is a CHOICE.

 The fact that I pointed out that certain LAWMAKERS and various idiots on the fringe want to do this to women is to point out YOU may be next in this. There may come a day when your employer demand something of you against your will or be fired (mandatory drug and alcohol tests for example)will everyone you work with line up voluntarily?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 09:31:52 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2013, 09:38:40 PM »
My understanding is that there are 3 categories of people who should not get flu shots.  Chemo patients, transplant patients, and people who have had Guillain-Barre Syndrome. 

People who come in regular contact with people in any of those categories, especially the first two, really need to be vaccinated to protect chemo patients and transplant patients. 

Failure to be vaccinated means that you are putting vulnerable people at risk.  And there is no way that an oncology nurse should be allowed NOT to get the vaccine unless s/he falls into one of the rare, exempt categories.

If someone I loved were going through chemo, I would like to feel secure in knowing that all medical professionals treating my loved one had been vaccinated, and were not putting my loved one at risk.
A mask could be worn in these situations could it not? Flu vaccine is NOT 100% effective against the flu virus......it is always evolving,why do you think Influenza is still here?

 Do you see what you are saying in a FREE society,DO IT OR ELSE,if this were a disease like small pox you would be stupid not to get vaccinated.....but it is not.

 What would you do if your work demanded you did something not related to your job,and because they told you do it ,or be fired......you would want all the information first .....no?

here the CDC says it is only effective in 9 out of 10 people,so the tenth nurse would risk all patients even with the flu shot

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257984/Fears-flu-vaccine-CDC-officials-confirm-treat-cases-disease-continues-spread-rapidly.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 09:42:12 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline wright

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2013, 10:50:34 PM »
I do not have a distrust....the issue is the making it mandatory or lose your job......I have had many immunizations over the years and except for the ones in my infancy they were all VOLUNTARY


And you really see this case as an unwarranted intrusion? These are people who come into close contact with others who have compromised immune systems, or are too young to have been vaccinated themselves. That's what I find so astonishing about this incident: that nurses would balk at doing something that involves little or no risk to themselves and lowers the risk to those in their care.

I do not discount the benefits of vaccinations,I disagree they should take them or be fired,it is a flu shot not a smallpox vaccination........do you understand for religious or other reasons it is a CHOICE.

If those nurses couldn't be vaccinated for some legitimate reason, then fine. But that's not the case; they decided their religious beliefs trumped the hospital's goal of protecting patients. Let them choose employment elsewhere, then.

The fact that I pointed out that certain LAWMAKERS and various idiots on the fringe want to do this to women is to point out YOU may be next in this. There may come a day when your employer demand something of you against your will or be fired (mandatory drug and alcohol tests for example)will everyone you work with line up voluntarily?

In fact, I once had to choose between mandatory drug testing and looking for another job. I chose to be tested; I judged that an acceptable compromise.

A mask could be worn in these situations could it not? Flu vaccine is NOT 100% effective against the flu virus......it is always evolving,why do you think Influenza is still here?

The influenza viruses are notoriously mutable; that's why new vaccines are constantly needed. That fact in no way changes that vaccinations are among the best methods for controlling the spread of easily transmitted diseases like flu.

Do you see what you are saying in a FREE society,DO IT OR ELSE,if this were a disease like small pox you would be stupid not to get vaccinated.....but it is not.

What would you do if your work demanded you did something not related to your job,and because they told you do it ,or be fired......you would want all the information first .....no?

Neither Quesi or I are insisting that vaccination be made mandatory for everyone, everywhere. I do agree with her that health-care providers like the nurses in question should be. I really don't see why that's a big deal for those in professions dedicated to caring for sick people.

I just don't.


here the CDC says it is only effective in 9 out of 10 people,so the tenth nurse would risk all patients even with the flu shot

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257984/Fears-flu-vaccine-CDC-officials-confirm-treat-cases-disease-continues-spread-rapidly.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

First, the "common" flu can still kill. Even when it doesn't, it still results in suffering and losses at the individual and societal level every year. A population where the majority that can be immunized are is far better off, even with a "mere" 90% effectiveness of treatment.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2013, 11:19:49 PM »
  The Flu kill regardless of someones medical conditions,it can easily kill a healthy person in any circumstance,and SO can the flu shot. What part of being a free person DON'T you understand about this argument?

 Hep A,B,C are  easily transmittable and vaccines are available for A and B,there are other transmittable and diseases that kill,where a vaccine is available,Whooping cough as an example,very DEADLY. Should these be mandatory as well? Where does the slippery slope of Big Brother stop? These vaccines are available but not mandatory,so why the flu shot?

 You guys sure dont like your freedoms being infringed upon,but it sure is ok to infringe on others
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 11:22:36 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2013, 11:29:55 PM »
And as Nick mentioned it was EVERYBODY in the hospital MUST get it not just care providers
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2013, 11:31:30 PM »
I don't think everyone should have to get a flu shot...even though they should.  But people working in medical facilities should.  You could easily be putting others at risk and in some cases high risk of death.  Your rights in such cases should end at the hospital door.  You are not forced to work at a hospital.

Why not stop getting polio and smallpox shots also.  Who knows what is in them?  Lets bring back smoking in hospitals also.

There must be limits when your choice affects the lives of others.
Why do you think someone has a freedom while someone else does not? there are more deadly diseases than the flu,why stop at one vaccine?
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Offline wright

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2013, 12:00:06 AM »
Why do you think someone has a freedom while someone else does not? there are more deadly diseases than the flu,why stop at one vaccine?

Again, we are talking about a very specific case. It looks like the hospital in question does require that those working there be vaccinated against measles/rubella, chickenpox, hepatitus B, tetanus/pertussis, flu and be screened for tuberculosis. http://iuhealth.org/search/results/vaccination%20policy

This seems very reasonable for a health professional / student / volunteer in such a workplace. Do you really see this as an infringement of human rights? What about the rights of the patients who are there to get better?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2013, 12:00:54 AM »
The facepalm / jawdropping thing for me about this is that some of these morons were nurses :o That is some good cognitive dissonance they've got, to get their degrees and work in their field for even a few years and still find getting a flu shot on behalf of the people they're serving untenable.

If it was in my power, I'd bar them from using any technology more advanced than what we had in the Bronze Age from now on. I feel sorry for anyone who ends up under their care, if they're so distrustful of 21st-century medicine.

Here's a link:http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/236052/158/Hospital-in-Goshen-Ind-Fires-8-Workers-Who-Refuse-Flu-Shot
Why does it in your opinion need to be religious grounds they refuse the flu-shot?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2013, 12:08:25 AM »
Why do you think someone has a freedom while someone else does not? there are more deadly diseases than the flu,why stop at one vaccine?

Again, we are talking about a very specific case. It looks like the hospital in question does require that those working there be vaccinated against measles/rubella, chickenpox, hepatitus B, tetanus/pertussis, flu and be screened for tuberculosis. http://iuhealth.org/search/results/vaccination%20policy

This seems very reasonable for a health professional / student / volunteer in such a workplace. Do you really see this as an infringement of human rights? What about the rights of the patients who are there to get better?
MASKS OR FLU SHOT.........could be given to anyone at risk.....why or why not? if there are 500 employees at a hospital and the vaccine does not work in 50 of those people there is STILL a high risk no? The vaccine in best case is only 90% effective and that leaves 10% still a threat. The 10% can easily spread the flu virus nullifying your argument.

 The American ideal of going to work sick is another problem. How exactly is it not an infringement?
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Offline wright

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2013, 12:20:13 AM »
The facepalm / jawdropping thing for me about this is that some of these morons were nurses :o That is some good cognitive dissonance they've got, to get their degrees and work in their field for even a few years and still find getting a flu shot on behalf of the people they're serving untenable.

If it was in my power, I'd bar them from using any technology more advanced than what we had in the Bronze Age from now on. I feel sorry for anyone who ends up under their care, if they're so distrustful of 21st-century medicine.

Here's a link:http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/236052/158/Hospital-in-Goshen-Ind-Fires-8-Workers-Who-Refuse-Flu-Shot
Why does it in your opinion need to be religious grounds they refuse the flu-shot?

Did you read the article I linked to?

Quote
Joyce Gingerich, who was fired from her job as an oncology nurse at IU Health Goshen Hospital for refusing to get a flu shot, said she understands the hospital's position, but she couldn't get a flu shot because it would have gone against her religious beliefs, which she describes as nondenominational Christian.

"I knew that I could not compromise my personal belief system for a job," said Gingerich, who had worked at the hospital on and off since 1987. "It was really sad to leave that job. In all my years of nursing, it was my favorite."

Quote
Sue Schrock, who had worked at the Goshen hospital as a hospice nurse on and off for the past 40 years, also had her exemption application rejected. She said her decision to decline the vaccination was, in part, "God-led."

Schrock said she believes people can stay healthy by taking natural vitamins, eating well and exercising, and they don't need to get a flu shot.

"I'm a pretty quiet, spiritual person, and for me, it was a big decision, but it was something that was very meaningful for me not to have in my body," she said.

So at least two of them had religious objections, which were rejected by the hospital. This does not seem unreasonable: the hospital has to be concerned with treating patients and keeping them and other staff healthy. Non-immunized staff would present an opportunity to spread an entirely preventable sickness around.

MASKS OR FLU SHOT.........could be given to anyone at risk.....why or why not? if there are 500 employees at a hospital and the vaccine does not work in 50 of those people there is STILL a high risk no? The vaccine in best case is only 90% effective and that leaves 10% still a threat. The 10% can easily spread the flu virus nullifying your argument.

At the very least, having so many immunized vastly reduces the chances of spreading disease. By your argument we shouldn't immunize, period. That's ludicrous.

The American ideal of going to work sick is another problem. How exactly is it not an infringement?

No argument from me. I always stayed home when I was sick, and sometimes caught flack from my employer because of it (never so badly as to be fired, fortunately).
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2013, 12:24:05 AM »
so the 50 or 10% it is not effective on is not a big deal right? Not to mention the long term effects of having a mandatory flu shot.....you have the internet,do some research

 We had this fight in BC Canada.....and nurses have refused,the Government so far has backed off....they can't all be doing it for religious reason. It was the unions fighting it
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 12:26:25 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline wright

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2013, 01:04:02 AM »
so the 50 or 10% it is not effective on is not a big deal right? Not to mention the long term effects of having a mandatory flu shot.....you have the internet,do some research

 We had this fight in BC Canada.....and nurses have refused,the Government so far has backed off....they can't all be doing it for religious reason. It was the unions fighting it

So you really think vaccines are essentially ineffective, and mandating them for hospital workers and similar people is an infringement of civil liberties? That seems to be your argument. Do you consider yourself a Libertarian?

Thanks for the tip about the controversy in British Columbia. Here's a link for anyone interested:http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/b-c-nurses-union-continues-fight-over-mandatory-flu-shots-1.1039192

Agreed, it looks like at least some of those quoted in that article had objections that weren't religious. I'll be looking into this Cochrane Collaboration.

As to these supposed negative long-term effects of flu vaccination, I haven't seen (as yet) anything to change my mind about the overall benefits. That sometimes people have adverse reactions to immunization is true, but it's a very rare thing.

I doubt it'll change your mind, but here's a link to some studies about the efficacy and long-term effects of vaccination: http://www.vaccinetimes.com/scientific-evidence/vaccine-efficacy/
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Crazy sh it.
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2013, 11:11:50 AM »
We could argue all day long,and get nowhere,I happen to be on one side,you on the other. As a Canadian,can you be a libertarian? :laugh:(joke)

 If there were not long term risks,why would anybody be against it,hell there is even an American agency compensating victims of vaccination side effects

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html
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