Adam's 1st wife

[Nick]

Ha, man, God just can't get anything right.  Even from the beginning.  Just saw a program where I learned that Adam had a 1st wife before Eve.  Part of Jewish folklore I guess.  Anyhow, her name is/was Lilith.  She was not obeying Adam so God sent 3 angels to set her straight.  That did not work so she was banished for refusing to make herself subservient to Adam.  To be more direct...she refused the missionary position with him during sex.

Now she has to remain on Earth forever as punishment and is a kind of demon.  Maybe that is how Cain and Able reproduced?

Why don't we hear more about Lilith from our Christian friends?  She sounds like the kind of woman Rush Limbaugh would love to tear down on his show.

[3sigma]

She was not obeying Adam so God sent 3 angles to set her straight.

No wonder they couldn’t set her straight.

[Mooby]

Why don't we hear more about Lilith from our Christian friends?

Because she is not part of Christian scripture?

[Jag]

In my experience, christians are largely unfamiliar with the story of Lilith, and are more than a bit shocked when they hear it.

Then the hardliners get really offended. That can be fun.   

[kitten]

i'm not shocked...sometimes the first one doesn't work out so well...especially when she likes it from behind more than missionary...which apparently was jesus' thing..couldn't handle a strong black woman..yeah, i said it...is it true..possibly..as much as anything said in the bible was true...
and yes jag, i agree, offending others is often times a lot of fun lol

[Sarevok]

Care to show me where in the Christian bible (since you refer to "Christian friends") it talks about Lilith and the 3 angels?

I just did a search of the whole bible (NIV) and wasn't even able to find the name Lilith.

[Nick]

It is my understanding it is part of Jewish folklore.  Don't know what that means.  Put Adam's 1st wife in search and see what comes up or Lilith.  I'm pretty sure it's not in the bible.  But myth is myth so who knows where it came from.  Maybe the Old T is like the New T and some parts were taken out over time.

[Quesi]

My understanding is that Lilith helps explain the first contradiction in Genesis - you know - Man and woman created at the same time, then woman created from man's rib. 

So the ancient rabbis had a problem with this, and they drew on some ancient texts and decided that Lilith was made at the same time as Adam, but that it didn't work out.  Then Eve was made from Adam's rib.

Those ancient texts are so problematic. 

[screwtape]

Care to show me where in the Christian bible (since you refer to "Christian friends") it talks about Lilith and the 3 angels?

I just did a search of the whole bible (NIV) and wasn't even able to find the name Lilith.

depends on the translation of the bible.  In some versions it is included in Is 34:14:

Wildcats will meet hyenas,
    the goat demon will call to his friends,
    and there Lilith will lurk
    and find her resting place

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 34:14&version=CEB

here are all of the different translations of that verse:
http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah%2034:14
some say night monster, screech owl, lilit, or night creatures instead

Wiki has a more thorough explanation and it is well referenced. Lilith^Wiki appears in some versions of the Talmud, which is on par with the Torah (OT) to jews.  To say it is not important just because it is not in the xian bible is to not understand where xianity comes from.

[Jag]

To say it is not important just because it is not in the xian bible is to not understand where xianity comes from.

But we have ample proof, right here in these pages, that for the most part, christians DO NOT KNOW where christianity comes from, they don't know the bible, they don't know the history of their own religion, and they don't know what an atheist is.

[The Gawd]

To say it is not important just because it is not in the xian bible is to not understand where xianity comes from.

But we have ample proof, right here in these pages, that for the most part, christians DO NOT KNOW where christianity comes from, they don't know the bible, they don't know the history of their own religion, and they don't know what an atheist is.

Whenever Ive tried to give a history lesson, even short ones, I get the "it doesnt matter, this is what I believe..." answer.
this is what the notion of a "personal" god has done, allowed people free reign in their SPAG.

[Sarevok]

@screwtape:
That mentions a creature that was given the name Lilith. I don't see how that references the Genesis account. I also never said it wasn't important, so I don't know where you got that from? All I said was that it wasn't mentioned in the book I base my belief on, at least the translation I use most commonly.

@Quesi:
I take it the contradiction your talking about is where God seems to make two people in Gen1, then talks about creating Eve later in time in Gen2? If you take Gen2:4-25, and replace Gen1:26-30, it provides a more complete picture. I'm not saying the bible is wrong here, simply that Gen2 could expand on the 6th day, and since the bible wasn't written with chapters and verses, I don't see the issue with doing this. If you simply take Chapter1 as a quick overview, and Chapter2 as expanding on the 6th day.

[Odin]

...To be more direct...she refused the missionary position with him during sex.

Ooh, she must have liked it doggy style!  So jehovah either killed her or kept her to himself till Mary came along.  This is kinkier than the Song of Solomon. 

Odin, King of the Gods

[ParkingPlaces]

Odin, just saw that you're back. Good to see you.

[LoriPinkAngel]

Lilith would kick Rush Limbaugh's ass.

[The Gawd]

@screwtape:
That mentions a creature that was given the name Lilith. I don't see how that references the Genesis account. I also never said it wasn't important, so I don't know where you got that from? All I said was that it wasn't mentioned in the book I base my belief on, at least the translation I use most commonly.

@Quesi:
I take it the contradiction your talking about is where God seems to make two people in Gen1, then talks about creating Eve later in time in Gen2? If you take Gen2:4-25, and replace Gen1:26-30, it provides a more complete picture. I'm not saying the bible is wrong here, simply that Gen2 could expand on the 6th day, and since the bible wasn't written with chapters and verses, I don't see the issue with doing this. If you simply take Chapter1 as a quick overview, and Chapter2 as expanding on the 6th day.

Heres the problem though. And I dont know the answers because I too am not familiar with the Lillith story, but I can still make some inferences from it.

If this story is widely accepted in the Jewish tradition and religion then it HAS to be part of the Christian tradition considering it piggybacked off of the Jewish religion. Not including it amounts to making up the religion (Christianity) as you go according to what you want to do or how it makes you feel (not you specifically, but the church). Furthermore, not adding Lillith to the Christian religion because you feel its folklore or myth, only proves that Christianity is based off of a myth, and IS mythology as well. This is a rock and a hard place.

[Jag]

^^^AND it reinforces the lack of knowledge of the history of their religion that we mentioned earlier.

Without the precursor of Judaism, there IS no Christianity. It amazes me how many people don't understand that simple fact - even when I was still a believer (and thus comparatively young), I knew that much. Now I find myself wondering how I came by that piece of knowledge, because it's certainly not common.

[Sarevok]

@The Gawd:
Looking into this further, I had a brief read of the following site: http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishculture/a/Where-Does-The-Legend-Of-Lilith-Come-From.htm
Things of note:
1) "The ancient rabbis noticed that two contradictory versions of Creation appear in the book of Genesis", the rabbis at the time noticed what they thought was a contradiction, and tried to fill the gap. Initially just the idea of two Eves was used. People still do this today, for example saying that the "days" of creation were in fact "eras" of time, similar to that used when someone may say "the Sun is setting on my life".
2) It wasn't until much later that the name Lilith was used to describe Adam's possible first wife (medieval times), and this seems to primarily be as a way to give a name to what seemed to be a contradiction in the Bible.

You also said that Christianity piggybacks on Judaism, and to exclude the idea of Lilith is to essentially make up our own mythology for how we want to live. It maybe true that we have the same old testament, but if I recall, Christianity branched from Judaism around the start of Jesus' ministry (since Judaism didn't accept Jesus as God's Son), and the idea of Lilith (Jewish folklore wise) developed after the Christianity branch (Medieval times). So, the idea of a first wife for Adam maybe a part of Christianity history, but associating Lilith with this first wife is not.

@Jag:
Its possible people just started dismissing it as folklore, so omitted teaching it. Or found some other justification for the Genesis account, so didn't feel it was necessary.

[Mooby]

If this story is widely accepted in the Jewish tradition and religion then it HAS to be part of the Christian tradition considering it piggybacked off of the Jewish religion.

You're making the assumption that Judaism's myths and traditions became frozen in place when Christianity developed.  Judaism has continued to develop as its own religion for the past 2000 years.

^^^AND it reinforces the lack of knowledge of the history of their religion that we mentioned earlier.

Without the precursor of Judaism, there IS no Christianity. It amazes me how many people don't understand that simple fact - even when I was still a believer (and thus comparatively young), I knew that much. Now I find myself wondering how I came by that piece of knowledge, because it's certainly not common.

We don't have to look far to find that history, either: screwtape kindly linked an excellent Wiki article.

People in this thread have mentioned that Lilith is mentioned in the Talmud.  Yes, she is, specifically in the Gemara, which was published a couple centuries after Christianity's split from Judaism.

Per the wiki article, there is only one pre-Christian Jewish reference of Lilith in the Dead Sea Scrolls:
And I, the Instructor, proclaim His glorious splendour so as to frighten and to te[rrify] all the spirits of the destroying angels, spirits of the bastards, demons, Lilith, howlers, and [desert dwellers…] and those which fall upon men without warning to lead them astray

She appears in the context of a list of demons/spirits/etc.  There is no other description of her.  (That's the same depiction in the Talmud, incidentally.)

Lilith as the first "Eve" does not appear until the 8th to 10th centuries CE, hundreds of years post-Christianity.  This was further developed throughout the Middle Ages in Jewish Mysticism.

Lastly, the article depicts Lilith's legend as a folk legend appearing in Jewish Mysticism, but not ever really being a central part of Judaism.  It concludes noting that Lilith appears in artwork, the occult, Wicca, Satanism, and mystery traditions... but makes no mention of her as a tenet of modern Judaism.

Thus, the Lilith legend evolved almost completely outside of Christianity, and has nothing to do with the origins of Christian scripture.

[screwtape]

@screwtape:
That mentions a creature that was given the name Lilith.

How many Liliths do you think there were?  That's sort of like saying "Sure, it says 'Adam' got kicked out of eden, but that was Adam Finkelstein.  Adam Munchnik got to stay."

I don't see how that references the Genesis account.

In what way does it not?  I said the story was found in the Talmud, which, if I understand correctly, is used to expound on, clarify and interpret the Torah, aka, the Old Testament.  So if it is found there in relation to Adam, Eve and creation, then it relates to the the genesis account.

I also never said it wasn't important, so I don't know where you got that from? All I said was that it wasn't mentioned in the book I base my belief on, at least the translation I use most commonly.

Sorry if I misunderstood.  It sounded like you were exercising a little xian bible hubris.  That is, if it is in the bible, it is right, literally.  And if it is not in the bible, then it is not authoritative. If that is not what you meant, then my apologies.

@Quesi:
...If you simply take Chapter1 as a quick overview, and Chapter2 as expanding on the 6th day.

Or if you understand that those reflect two separate-but-similar stories from two separate-but-similar nations who combined cultures, myths and stories, then it makes more sense.   Check out the Documentary Hypothesis.  Suddenly the Pentateuch will make more sense.

I recommend Who Wrote the Bible, by Richard Elliot Friedman.  Great stuff.

[Nick]

Adam sure seems to have a hard time with women.  Maybe Adam and Steve would have worked out better.

I always wondered?  If Eve had not eaten the apple would they ave just lived and that was it.  No pain of child birth which means no other humans?  And why did God make like 10,000 different kinds of butterflies and differnet kinds of birds and etc. but only 2 humans?  Why not a bunch of us all at once.  Seems like His odds of getting some of us right would have been better.  Maybe He just did not think this all thru very good?

[The Gawd]

<snip>

You also said that Christianity piggybacks on Judaism, and to exclude the idea of Lilith is to essentially make up our own mythology for how we want to live. It maybe true that we have the same old testament, but if I recall, Christianity branched from Judaism around the start of Jesus' ministry (since Judaism didn't accept Jesus as God's Son), and the idea of Lilith (Jewish folklore wise) developed after the Christianity branch (Medieval times). So, the idea of a first wife for Adam maybe a part of Christianity history, but associating Lilith with this first wife is not.
<snip>

I thought about that, I really did. However, the point still stands. Christianity branched off of Judaism, a religion in which if you dont include Lillith you basically admits is folklore. You cant base your religion off of another religion, then claim that religion is mythology. Either you include Lillith or you admit to being mythology. There is no way around it.

[Graybeard]

Out of curiosity, I had a look at the Dead Sea Scroll that contains Isa:34:14 http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#34:14 and the non-Masoretic translation at http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qa-tran.htm

The scroll gives:  (14) And the wild beasts of the deserts and the islands shall join together there and the wild goats and they shall call to each other, even there the screech owl will alight and find a rest for themselves

KJV1611 gives Isa:34:14: The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

Parallel Hebrew Bible: 34:14 and·they-encounter desert-creatures, desert-howlers, and·hairy-goat on associate-of·him he-shall-call yea there she-lulls hoot-owl [lillith] and she find for her resting place.

Interestingly, the next verse of PHB contains reference to Scops Owl (otus scops) and the verse afterwards to the Black Kite. There is not much doubt that the author of Isaiah, was aware of a variety of birds and one, the Hoot- or Screech owl was called a Lillith[1]. You would have to ask yourself, which word came first? Lillith the owl or Lillith wife of Adam and the answer must be "the owl".

And so we can see some ancient father telling his children the story of how the owl got its name, "You ask why a Lillith is called a Lillith. I will tell you. Once upon a time, in a far away land, a god made a man and then he made a woman to be his wife but this woman was disobedient so the god turned her into an owl and cursed her to haunt the night... and so, my little ones, Lillith's spirit must wander the earth at night and, in her sorrow, she howls and screams and pecks the eyes out of children, so go to sleep."

1.	It is probably Syrnium aluco which is common in the area but, disappointingly, whereas the author identified Scops Owl, the "hoot- and screech-owl could be any one of about 8 owls, all of which make noises that could be classed as 'scary' or 'like a ghost'..

[Nick]

What I got from that was that Lillith has a nice set of hooters.

[screwtape]

Thus, the Lilith legend evolved almost completely outside of Christianity, and has nothing to do with the origins of Christian scripture.

So Moob, what are you saying?  That the jews were right (or "kinda right") when they came up with this religion stuff once upon a time, but when they did it after jesus H they were full of shit? 

Or is it a veiled admission that in religion people make shit up? 

[Mooby]

So Moob, what are you saying?  That the jews were right (or "kinda right") when they came up with this religion stuff once upon a time, but when they did it after jesus H they were full of shit? 

Or is it a veiled admission that in religion people make shit up?

I'm saying it's not part of Christian tradition.  Christianity is no longer a sect of Judaism, and it does not accept all the Jewish texts and laws.  This has been the case since 50 CE.

I'm also saying that the legend is Jewish folklore, not Jewish doctrine.  It's no more a part of Judaism than the names of the Wise Men is part of Christianity.

[screwtape]

that was a very diplomatic way of not really owning a position. 

Horace and John would be proud.

[Nam]

I have known the story of Lilith for quite a long time. I even may have learned about her in the church I used to go to as a child. Don't really remember. I do know I've known about her for many many years.

But who cares? Genesis still promotes incest. That's all that is important here. Because that time I made out with a cousin is justified based on Genesis.

(A lot of my cousins are just really hot )

-Nam

[Nick]

I guess you are not from West Virginia because it would be a sister not cousin.