Author Topic: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?  (Read 27296 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2014, 09:31:22 PM »
Your lack of intellectual terms and references, even your poor vocabulary, scream nothing but,"FALSE PROPHET."

You clearly don't know anything about prophets.  The Genuine Prophets have poor vocabulary and sound like crazy, homeless people. In fact, it is nearly impossible to tell them apart from crazy, homeless people.  Everyone knows that.

Sheesh.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline StephenTheAlchemist

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2014, 09:42:04 PM »
These are some of the verses in Scripture about God loving us:

None of those demonstrate a loving God.  Just people who say God is loving.  I have a thread somewhere with most of the verses about God being jealous or wrathful.  In most of them he is the one saying he's jealous or wrathful.  So, if we are being fair, God may occasionally be loving, if those guys are to believed (and I don't think they are), but he is also very jealous and angry.  Sounds more like Zeus or some other "false god" than a perfect, transcendent God.


http://www.gotquestions.org/love-sinner-hate-sin.html

I am familiar with that site.  I do not find it to be a very good site.  It represents xianity poorly.  Gives xians bad ideas and stupid answers.



Hey Screwtape, it's nice to meet you. I'm new to this as you are well aware. I'm a Sophomore in High School. And before I begin defending what I believe, if you do not believe in God's Word then meaning that you do not believe in God why is your name in reference to a book "The Screwtape Letters" by a renown Christian author, C.S. Lewis?  (I love that book btw)

My first question with your comment is, I would like you to explain your reasoning as to how John 3:16 is not a verse about God saying that he loves us?

Your theory is only valid if you do not believe in the Word. You claim that none of those verses demonstrate a loving God, only men who speak it. Well in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1). So if his divine word, The Holy Bible says any of those verses that you claim are just written by incorrect men were spoken by God.

And I would like to see this thread for educational reasons if you can find it or direct me to it. Thanks!

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?" -Mark Twain

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2014, 10:39:17 PM »
1) Yes it is a sin for them to remain homosexual regardless of attending Church, feeding the homeless, or any other righteous action
The question, though, is whether it's actually a sin for two people to engage in a consensual homosexual relationship.  The Bible does not even touch on this; instead, it simply declares it bad, the end, nothing to see here.

Quote from: StephenTheAlchemist
2) As a Christian the Bible tells me to love these people and show them compassion. Not mock or scorn them. I am to love them as Jesus loved.
That is not what you're doing, though.  Whatever you might tell yourself, you're coming across as as self-righteous and condescending.  You're basically telling them that it's wrong to love someone like that simply because they happen to be the same sex - this is the self-righteous part - and so your 'compassion' actually comes across as condescension.  It's easy to think of yourself as compassionate and loving when you're not, especially if you think you're correcting aberrant behavior.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Nam

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2014, 10:45:18 PM »
That, and if the Bible mentioned it at all -- would he be against it? Maybe, maybe not. The point is: he needs a book to think for him, he can't do it himself. Which is the biggest insult of all; more so to himself.

But he can't see that because he needs the book to tell him what to do. Sheep are like that.

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline StephenTheAlchemist

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2014, 11:18:55 PM »
1) Yes it is a sin for them to remain homosexual regardless of attending Church, feeding the homeless, or any other righteous action
The question, though, is whether it's actually a sin for two people to engage in a consensual homosexual relationship.  The Bible does not even touch on this; instead, it simply declares it bad, the end, nothing to see here.

Quote from: StephenTheAlchemist
2) As a Christian the Bible tells me to love these people and show them compassion. Not mock or scorn them. I am to love them as Jesus loved.
That is not what you're doing, though.  Whatever you might tell yourself, you're coming across as as self-righteous and condescending.  You're basically telling them that it's wrong to love someone like that simply because they happen to be the same sex - this is the self-righteous part - and so your 'compassion' actually comes across as condescension.  It's easy to think of yourself as compassionate and loving when you're not, especially if you think you're correcting aberrant behavior.

If God says that it's a sin to have shoes and I debate with others if he meant that it included brown shoes as well, I would be wasting my time. I just added an adjective to a sin and accused God for not touching on it. Anyone can do that and try to base an argument off of it.

As far as your second argument is concerned it's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?" -Mark Twain

Offline StephenTheAlchemist

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2014, 11:23:17 PM »
That, and if the Bible mentioned it at all -- would he be against it? Maybe, maybe not. The point is: he needs a book to think for him, he can't do it himself. Which is the biggest insult of all; more so to himself.

But he can't see that because he needs the book to tell him what to do. Sheep are like that.

-Nam

If you are talking about me then I am happy you think so, then that means I am doing my job as a Christian. If you are speaking about God, then I would like you to cite your evidence. And did we not already discuss about who gave you the authority to comprehend what others do and do not understand? If you could cite that too that would be great.
"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?" -Mark Twain

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2014, 11:24:52 PM »
I figured this would be an appropriate place to post how many people the Christian god has killed.

*spoiler alert the biblical total is 2,821,364. An estimated total is 24,994,828. The estimated total is counting events in the bible that didn’t list how many people were killed.

It is possible this website is slanted slightly towards atheism. Still if any doubt or disagreement is raised it lists where you can find these event of divine holy love. 
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2014, 09:11:52 AM »
The Bible commands us to treat sinners with kindness and love as Jesus did. All of us, every one are sinners, we see that in Romans 3:23.

Quote
2) As a Christian the Bible tells me to love these people and show them compassion. Not mock or scorn them. I am to love them as Jesus loved.

It does depress me when I read stuff like this from Christians. "The Bible commands me to be kind and loving", "the Bible tells me to love these people". You need telling to do this? You only feel compelled to do this because you're commanded to by an authority figure? Buuuuuuuullshit. Why do you let this religion put you down so much? I believe that you have the capacity to do this without being told you should.
Christian: "My faith grows every day."
Atheist: "So does rhubarb, and for the same reason."

Offline StephenTheAlchemist

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2014, 09:22:51 AM »
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?" -Mark Twain

Offline screwtape

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2014, 10:08:56 AM »
Hey Screwtape, it's nice to meet you.

Hi.  Nice to meet you.

I'm a Sophomore in High School.

Oh, good.  Then perhaps this religious business is just a phase you will grow out of.  I was quite religious at your age too.  Fortunately I grew out of it.

if you do not believe in God's Word then meaning that you do not believe in God why is your name in reference to a book "The Screwtape Letters" by a renown Christian author, C.S. Lewis?  (I love that book btw)

Consider it for a bit.  Why might you think?

I would like you to explain your reasoning as to how John 3:16 is not a verse about God saying that he loves us?

John 3:16 is not the word of god.  It is the commentary of a narrator.  In the OT, yhwh or el speaks in the first person.  Example: Ex 20:5 "I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God".  Here, in John, the best we get is some anonymous hack allegedly speaking for the Big Man.  Who is this hack?  What is his agenda?  We have no idea on either count. 

Let me ask you, if someone were to approach you and claim to be speaking for god, just how credible would you take that person to be?

Your theory is only valid if you do not believe in the Word.

It is less a theory than an observation.  In the OT you see a lot of places where it says "yhwh said..."  You don't get that in the NT anymore.  So for anything in the NT to be word of god, you have to assume it.  I find no good reason to conclude that it is. But it is still possible to believe in the word and not accept that the word is this particular bit of propaganda. 

As I said in another thread, the key question is "how do you know?"

You claim that none of those verses demonstrate a loving God, only men who speak it.

yep.

Well in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1).

1. That's gobledeegook and fails to make a connection.  The word was with god and was god?  What the flip is that even supposed to mean?  It's nonsense, is what it is.  And from that how are you supposed to conclude what the author of John wrote (or any other NT writer) was beamed down by god?  On top of that it is self referencial.  "This document makes me the king, by order of me, the king."

As if all that isn't bad enough, this does not make the connection that any of the NT writers were speaking for god.  It does not connect A to B.

2. The Bird is the Word.  Everybody knows the Bird is the Word.

So if his divine word, The Holy Bible says any of those verses that you claim are just written by incorrect men were spoken by God.

This appears to be an incomplete sentence.  I do not understand it.  Kindly restate it, unless it is not a key point.

And I would like to see this thread for educational reasons if you can find it or direct me to it. Thanks!

yhwh: god of jealousy
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,10880.msg244449.html#msg244449



edit: upon further review, I have found that john 3:16 was handled on page 1 of this thread (a couple of times) and the link to my thread on the jealous god was also provided. 

This brings up 2 issues.  First, thread necromancy.  This thread is over a year old and some of the members have moved on.  You might think twice before bringing old threads back to life. 

Second, read the whole damn thread before posting. Yeah, it sucks, because it's work and it might delay the world from reading your completely new and insightful opinion by a few minutes.  But you might find you opinion has already been articulated several years ago by some stranger, thus saving you the effort of writing it, and us the effort of reading it.


« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 10:18:57 AM by screwtape »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2014, 10:23:56 AM »
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Hi Stephen

the green text indicates I am addressing you as a moderator, not a participant.

I appreciate your polite reply here.  Since this forum is for discussion, perhaps you could ask questions about Atartaxia's opinion or explain why you disagree.  We acknowledge people have opinions, but we also acknowledge that sometimes some opinions are superior to others.  "That's your opinion" tends to shut down the conversation.

Regards

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline albeto

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2014, 12:17:31 PM »
These are some of the verses in Scripture about God loving us:

Hi Stephen. :)

This is long, so don't feel compelled to read it all and get back to me right away. Mostly, it's just reaction to the bible verses you provided, but I know you've got other things to do with school and all. Anyway...

With respect, you're assuming your 21st century, western civilization social outlook is interpreting these verses in the context in which they were written. Arguably, this is not true. These verses do not refer to God loving everyone, but only those who sufficiently fear and obey him. This is, after all, our sole duty (Ecclesiastes 12:13). Jesus tells us if we are obedient, then we can expect the favors of a loving god (John 14:23; Exodus 20:6). It's an if/then statement that reveals the conditions upon which god will bestow his favors upon an individual. This condition of loyalty and obedience is pervasive in the bible, and we are warned that punishment does not end with us, but with our great, great, great grandkids (Numbers 14:18; Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 5:9) This is of course assuming none of them offend Yahweh further, extending this curse to subsequent generations.

John 3:16

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 We are told that God loved the world, but in the next breath we are told that God has no problem condemning the world to eternal torment and suffering for the "crime" of unbelief. (John 3:18:  "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.")

Consider that for a moment. Of all the crimes against humanity, this one is the one and only one that your god considers, and it's not against humanity but against his own ego.

The question I have is, if God loves everyone, as you've been taught, in what way is God's love functionally different from a lack of  God's lack of love?

Romans 5:8

Romans 5:8: but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Unless, that is, you

* blaspheme against the holy spirit (Mark 3:29: "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation"),
* cannot find it in yourself to forgive someone who did something heinous and traumatic (Matthew 6:15: "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"),
* fail to keep on his good side (Romans 11:22: "... but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off"),
* fail to follow every commandment (John 14:23: "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.")

Other restrictions do apply. Those damned include, but are not limited to Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8 ), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8 ), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8 ), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8 ), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8 ), All Liars (Revelation 21:8 ).

If you're right and God really does loves everyone, in what way is God's love functionally different from a lack of God's love?

Galatians 2:20

Galatians 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God. who loved me and gave himself for me.

Clearly God doesn't love us, he loves Christ who just so happens to be possessing the body of the Christian.

The bumper stickers and t-shirts that you see, "He > I" reflects this idea - the more one adopts the persona of the christ, or more accurately, the more one suppresses their autonomy, their own individuality, the more your resurrected god fills in the void. This is understood to be a good thing. 

Ephesians 2:4-5

Ephesians 2:4-5: But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, evenwhen we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

Until you consider that only those who were predestined to be saved were the only ones God loves (Romans 8:29-30 " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.")

1 John 4:9-11

1 John 4:9-11: In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

"One another" doesn't mean every person on earth. God calls the believer to separate himself from, not love, the nonbeliever. This is for the sake of their own salvation. ( 1 Corinthians 5:9-13: "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.")

"One another" means "one of us" (Matthew 12:46-50: "While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.").

Zephaniah 3:17

Zephaniah 3:17: The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.

That is, of course, if you have not done anything to piss off God, like fail to follow a commandment or have the audacity to think for yourself (Micah 3:4: "Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings," 1 Samuel 8:18: "And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day," Proverbs 1:28-30: Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.")

1 John 4:7-8

1 John 4:7-8:  Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.  Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Recall the verse just before the one you quote, and remember to read the bible in context.  (1 John 4:3: "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.") If you pledge your love to he who works against God, you are aligning yourself against God. (Matthew 12:30: "He that is not with me is against me") This cannot do, for a person has One Job - to fear God and obey God. (Ecclesiastes 12:13: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.")
 
1 Peter 5:6-7

1 Peter 5:6-7:  Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,  casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

Interestingly, he doesn't care for you if you don't "humble yourselves" under his authority. This is to say, God loves those who choose to ignore the instinct to think for themselves and refuses to learn how to rationally and critically analyze information. (1 Corinthians 2:4-7 "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.") We know this because people who don't "humble themselves" don't believe the fantastic and absurd claims made, namely that Jesus, like Osiris, Romulus, and Zalmoxis, died as a sacrifice for the redemption of mankind, was resurrected, and offers their followers eternal life, but unlike them, this particular dying-rising god is real.

Psalm 86:15

Psalm 86:15: But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

This verse refers to the quality of God's love, not whether or not it applies to all humanity. Besides, his mercy and grace are extended to a select number of true believers (Romans 8:14: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God," Romans 8:17: "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.") But this comes at a price, namely that you trust God first and show that trust by [conveniently] being so humble that you accept nothing of yours, but give it all "back" to God, whatever that looks like. Then, and only then, will is mercy and grace be upon you. (II Corinthians 9:6: "But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully." Luke 6:38: "Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.") If his mercy and grace isn't available, it's because you've been harboring some unknown sin, pissing him off enough to withhold this mercy and grace until you get your shit together, grovel appropriately, and abdicate that pesky instinctual autonomy. (2 Corinthians 13:5: "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?")

Job 34:19

Job 34:19: How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.

The entire book of Job is written to confirm god's justice, but keep in mind, this justice is founded upon the moral code Might Makes Right. While this is a pervasive message throughout the bible, no where is it more unapologetic than in the dialog between Job and Yahweh where Yahweh puts Job in his place for having the audacity to question his methods. The brunt of the argument goes like this, "Who do you think you are questioning me? Who do you think put all this together? Who gets to decide what to do with it? I brought you into this world and I can take you out, and no one has the authority to question me about it. I am accountable to no man." (Job, chapter 38). It's a moral crime by modern ethical standards to enslave the mind and labors of others for one's own profit (in this case, the profit is ego), but it was perfectly acceptable by the society for which it was written. It explains why slavery was spoken about only in terms of making fair trade, not the ethical consideration of such a practice (Exodus 21:2-11; 21:20-21; Leviticus 25:44-46; Ephesians 6:5). The bible tells us we are either slaves to sin or slaves to god, but slaves we are (John 8:34; Romans 6:16), and we are owned by your god. This isn't love, it's ownership.

1 John 3:1

1 John 3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Who are these "sons of god"? Not all of us, not humanity, not everyone. The bible is referring to those who separate themselves from non-believers. (2 Corinthians 6:17-18: "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.) Your god loves those who first love and serve him, and only those who love and serve him. The rest of us, he does not love.

John 13:34-35

John 13:34-35: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

This doesn't refer to God's love for humanity, but one of the conditions for serving him - love other believers, support them, care for their needs, pray for them, keep them from sinning, etc. The faithful are called to functionally isolate themselves from the world even as they reside among non-believers, and support their own. To this end, the believer is compelled to know how to judge people's behavior (with righteous judgement, Leviticus 19:15; 2nd Timothy 4:1-5). It makes sense, as behavior is the only way one can know if another self-professed believer is actually part of "us" (Matthew 12:33). Lots of people will think they are, but are mistaken (Matthew 22:14; 25-31-46).  Besides, believers are expected to one day be the rulers over "them" (1 Corinthians 6:2-3). You can't be much good as a world ruler if you can't judge righteously, right?


And a question that often comes when this one is brought up is "What about all the scripture in the Bible where it says that God hates certain people?" Well the best way that I have seen it put is:

"Many Christians use the cliché “Love the sinner; hate the sin.” This saying is not found in the Bible in so many words; however, Jude 1:22–23 contains a similar idea: “Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.” According to this, our evangelism should be characterized by mercy for the sinner and a healthy hatred of sin and its effects."

"It is not loving to allow a person to remain stuck in sin. It is not hateful to tell a person he or she is in sin. In fact, the exact opposites are true. Sin leads to death (James 1:15), and we love the sinner by speaking the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15). We hate the sin by refusing to condone, ignore, or excuse it."

My source for the information that I have given you is:

http://www.gotquestions.org/love-sinner-hate-sin.html

This isn't love, this is following rules. If you follow his rules and are sufficiently fearful and obedient, is it love or fulfilling conditions that grant salvation from an eternity of torture? And what's the difference?

See the thing is, and few places are so outspoken about this like godquestions (Piper is one, so too is Westboro Baptist, no seriously), but the thing is, this "good news" about salvation and Jesus redeeming humanity only exists on the backdrop of first accepting the idea that you're guilty and deserving of an eternity of trauma and torment. You first have to agree that you have a disease before you can be persuaded to buy the cure.

Dan Barker has a great analogy of this:

« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 01:15:53 PM by albeto »

Offline Nam

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2014, 12:22:41 PM »
That, and if the Bible mentioned it at all -- would he be against it? Maybe, maybe not. The point is: he needs a book to think for him, he can't do it himself. Which is the biggest insult of all; more so to himself.

But he can't see that because he needs the book to tell him what to do. Sheep are like that.

-Nam

If you are talking about me then I am happy you think so, then that means I am doing my job as a Christian. If you are speaking about God, then I would like you to cite your evidence. And did we not already discuss about who gave you the authority to comprehend what others do and do not understand? If you could cite that too that would be great.

You may be doing your job as a Christian but you are not doing it as a human being.

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline StephenTheAlchemist

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2014, 01:10:57 PM »
There you go again. Can you please cite who is giving you this authority. Now you are saying I am not doing my job as a human being? By who's standards. Cite that as well. I can only assume that they are your standards. In such a case your statement is pure opinion and means nothing to me. I would love to know who has given you this authority of determining people's comprehension and whether or not they are doing their job as a human being.
"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?" -Mark Twain

Offline Astreja

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2014, 01:31:08 PM »
... In such a case your statement is pure opinion and means nothing to me.

 :? If you aren't interested in others' opinions, why did you come to a discussion forum?

As for the "Does the god of the Bible loves humanity?" issue, I'm not sure that I would want the "love" of that particular god.  Albeto's post has a fine critique of many Bible verses, but for Me both John 3:16 and John 3:18  in particular are deal-breakers.   I don't want anyone to die for something that *I* did, and the idea of people being condemned for not believing is unutterably ghastly.
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Offline StephenTheAlchemist

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2014, 01:39:24 PM »
... In such a case your statement is pure opinion and means nothing to me.

 :? If you aren't interested in others' opinions, why did you come to a discussion forum?

As for the "Does the god of the Bible loves humanity?" issue, I'm not sure that I would want the "love" of that particular god.  Albeto's post has a fine critique of many Bible verses, but for Me both John 3:16 and John 3:18  in particular are deal-breakers.   I don't want anyone to die for something that *I* did, and the idea of people being condemned for not believing is unutterably ghastly.

"Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments."

That's a quote from the Rules. So there is your answer.
"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?" -Mark Twain

Offline Nam

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2014, 01:46:08 PM »
There you go again. Can you please cite who is giving you this authority. Now you are saying I am not doing my job as a human being? By who's standards. Cite that as well. I can only assume that they are your standards. In such a case your statement is pure opinion and means nothing to me. I would love to know who has given you this authority of determining people's comprehension and whether or not they are doing their job as a human being.

The borg.

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline Nam

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2014, 01:47:23 PM »
... In such a case your statement is pure opinion and means nothing to me.

 :? If you aren't interested in others' opinions, why did you come to a discussion forum?

As for the "Does the god of the Bible loves humanity?" issue, I'm not sure that I would want the "love" of that particular god.  Albeto's post has a fine critique of many Bible verses, but for Me both John 3:16 and John 3:18  in particular are deal-breakers.   I don't want anyone to die for something that *I* did, and the idea of people being condemned for not believing is unutterably ghastly.

"Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments."

That's a quote from the Rules. So there is your answer.

Fixed that for you.

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline albeto

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2014, 02:01:12 PM »
:? If you aren't interested in others' opinions, why did you come to a discussion forum?

The question makes sense to me. If someone is going to question him about his claims, it makes sense for him to challenge the claims thrown at him. It's all part of the Socratic method. He's asking (or should be asking), how do you determine that someone is not doing their job as a human being? I don't even know what that means, to "do your job as a human being."

Ultimately, I think it's a straw man argument, and I hope Stephen doesn't get sucked into it. He's a high school kid. He should be focusing on the fundamentals of his belief, what is this religion that he professes to believe in? What does it really advocate? How do people conclude what things are noble ideas to promote? How does he know this religion's explanations are an accurate representation of reality? Can he trust his religion to be a reliable source for information and values? Does it have any predictive reliability? Throwing out vague ideas like not doing your job as a human are confusing, and if they're important, the details should be understood. But to repeat myself, I don't think it's important. I think it's a distraction, but perhaps I misunderstand Nam.

Offline Nam

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2014, 02:14:47 PM »
Christianity, like many other religions, teaches their followers to hate others in the guise of love: love the sinner not the sin: that's hate guised as love. Homosexuality is about two people who are of the same sex who are attracted to each other. What's sinful about that? Oh, a religion/s says it is, therefore it must be. Then, it's compared with being the same as collectively[1] things like murder, incest, molestation, adultery, rape, theft, etc.,

As a human being, and not a tool of hatred derived from ideals, philosophies, religions, etc., it's natural; yet someone comes along and says its unnatural, as an opinion masqueraded as fact with no evidence to back it up, and we have to accept it because that person says s/he has the authority because a superior being called god gave them that power to do so -- is nonsense. It's not about being human at the point, it's about being controlling, manipulative.

As individuals we like, and dislike things. And that's okay but to force that on others, to say, "I do this because I love you" is disingenuous and hateful.

And that is inhumane.

-Nam
 1. generalisation of all of humanity considering what is bad vs. good
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline StephenTheAlchemist

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2014, 02:16:48 PM »
:? If you aren't interested in others' opinions, why did you come to a discussion forum?

The question makes sense to me. If someone is going to question him about his claims, it makes sense for him to challenge the claims thrown at him. It's all part of the Socratic method. He's asking (or should be asking), how do you determine that someone is not doing their job as a human being? I don't even know what that means, to "do your job as a human being."

Ultimately, I think it's a straw man argument, and I hope Stephen doesn't get sucked into it. He's a high school kid. He should be focusing on the fundamentals of his belief, what is this religion that he professes to believe in? What does it really advocate? How do people conclude what things are noble ideas to promote? How does he know this religion's explanations are an accurate representation of reality? Can he trust his religion to be a reliable source for information and values? Does it have any predictive reliability? Throwing out vague ideas like not doing your job as a human are confusing, and if they're important, the details should be understood. But to repeat myself, I don't think it's important. I think it's a distraction, but perhaps I misunderstand Nam.

Thank you, Albeto. Your words are appreciated.
"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?" -Mark Twain

Offline albeto

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2014, 02:59:08 PM »
Thanks, Nam. That's helpful, for me anyway. I hope it gives Stephen something to think about as well. I know when I was a believer, it never occurred to me that what I believed to be good (god of the bible) actually went against other things I also believed to be good (treating people with kindness and compassion). I just accepted it as all good, you know? Having concrete points to identify the flaw in that thinking helped me break free from the indoctrination. I hope the same for Stephen.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2014, 03:29:26 PM »
Throwing out vague ideas like not doing your job as a human are confusing, and if they're important, the details should be understood. But to repeat myself, I don't think it's important. I think it's a distraction, but perhaps I misunderstand Nam.

It's a fair cop, Albeto.  Apologies, Stephen, if My question was unduly provocative:   I intended My question in general terms and wasn't trying to be Third Man In between you and Nam.[1]   "That's just your opinion" just seemed like an odd thing to say, IMO.  ;)

Nam, I'd tend to agree with you on the religious idea of "love." All too often it's just hatred and rejection screaming "I love you!" at the top of its lungs while administering unsolicited, bone-crushing hugs to the unwilling.  It's not all like that, mind you, but it happens far too often.

Getting back to the OP and John 3:16, that verse I so love to hate, I'd like to ponder its use of "the world" in the phrase "For God so loved the world..."  Specifically, does it refer to humanity or to something else, and if so, what?

To put it another way, how does one go about loving "the world" while excluding certain people from membership therein?
 1. I hate getting a game misconduct ...
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Offline Jag

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2014, 06:07:19 PM »
^^^Once again, I go back to this: a single species, on a single planet, in a single solar system, in a single galaxy, in the entirety of the universe - and most of the theist population is CONVINCED BEYOND ANY QUESTION that it's ALL about US. And each of the is pretty damned sure that it's their personal, specific interpretation of their own in-group that has been singled out for special attention, to the exclusion of every other living being on the planet, and the planet itself apparently.

The staggeringly oblivious arrogance of that position never fails to amaze me. The entire freaking universe, and an endless stream of theists so smugly self-assured as to assume that they have the answer to everything, and it most certainly must be "MY goddidit".

Wow.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline Nam

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2014, 07:36:53 PM »
^you didn't watch that video PP posted yesterday? Dude, she was a cartoon.

;)

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline GND15

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #83 on: January 22, 2015, 10:13:00 PM »
“Legalism says God will love us if we change. The gospel says God will change us because He loves us.”
? Tullian Tchividjian


Yes, in the Old Testament we read of the love, mercy, AND wrath and judgment of God. People had to make sacrifices for their sins. Once Jesus Christ was crucified and died on the cross for our sins, Scripture says that this ultimate act of love is what frees us from having to "do" things to earn salvation. So I guess that my answer to your question is that on top of specific verses talking about God's love for us, the ENTIRE theme of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is a story of God's love for us. He created us, gave us free will, didn't completely destroy us when mankind sinned in the garden, provided prophets throughout the Old Testament to encourage His people and gave them chance after chance to turn to Him. Even when those same people were nailing Jesus Christ, God's only Son, to the cross to die, God still allowed His Son to die so that those people might have the chance to know Him and put their faith and trust in Him. The ultimate act of love was when Jesus says in Luke 23:34, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." He literally asks God to forgive the people who are murdering Him.

"Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with Him to be executed. When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified Him there, along with the criminals—one on His right, the other on His left. Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.' And they divided up His clothes by casting lots.

The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at Him. They said, 'He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.' The soldiers also came up and mocked Him. They offered Him wine vinegar and said, 'If You are the king of the Jews, save Yourself.'

There was a written notice above Him, which read: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at Him: 'Aren’t You the Messiah? Save Yourself and us!'
But the other criminal rebuked Him. 'Don’t you fear God,' he said, 'since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this Man has done nothing wrong.'

Then he said, 'Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.'
Jesus answered him, 'Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in paradise.'"

- Luke 23:32-43

I hope this offers an answer with a different perspective! That was a great question!
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 08:33:09 AM by Anfauglir »

Offline Nam

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #84 on: January 22, 2015, 10:21:26 PM »
So...hell is your god's love for mankind. If only I knew...I still wouldn't care.

-Nam
"presumptions are the bitch of all assumptions" -- me

Offline GND15

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2015, 09:23:39 AM »
Quote
"One of the classic problems that people bring up is: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Well, there are several answers to that.

One of course is that God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us--after His image, after His likeness, the power to say “yes” or the power to say “no,” the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences.

Across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ.
In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man's rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn't have any use for people--only the desire to get ahead.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

We have our catalog of sins. We have rape and incest and murder ; and we have them all cataloged and classified--but there isn't one of them (or even put them all together in one big hunk) that comes close to the sin of keeping Jesus Christ out of your life. Did Jesus say, "I'm going to send the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin because they rob banks"-- or, "because they believe not on me"?

Photo copyrighted. Courtesy of Films for Christ.
It is folly to expect that you or I can trifle with the Lord Jesus and not have a penalty attached to it. What ridiculous thinking people have in this area! We expect penalties for doing much less. Life is just built that way.

You jump off a high building, the law of gravity will take care of you. You might say, “God is love,” all the way down, but you're still going to get splattered when you hit the bottom! You break the law of gravity, and it breaks you! You may love your little child, but if he puts his finger up on that hot burner on the gas stove or the electric stove, he's going to get burned!

Fire burns. Gravity kills. Water drowns. And you can say, "God is love, God is love, God is love," until you're blue in the face. But water will still drown you, fire will burn you, and gravity will kill you, and sin will damn you no matter how much you say about a loving God."
- Dr. Bruce W. Dunn
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-grace/hell-and-god.html

Preaching is basically what preachers do, Bruce W. Dunn is basically a preacher. He assumes there is a god and goes from there. Preaching also covers copying and pasting preaching.

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I think this is a great explanation of hell in respect to God's love. It wasn't His original design. After Adam and Eve first sinned and separated themselves from God, they would be separated until they repented. If they never believed in God and continued to live a life apart from Him, that choice would be made even after they died. What we choose to believe here on earth directly affects our eternity. Hell isn't God's love for mankind...Jesus is. He sent Jesus to SAVE us. He sent His one and only Son to pay the price for our sins so that we would have the option of spending eternity with Him. Because God gave us freewill, it would kind of be weird if He made us believe in Him. I personally would not like that. He shows His love for us because He gave everything for us to simply have the option of heaven.

I know God loves me. He loves me like crazy. He loves you like crazy too! I've been through so much so far in my short eighteen years of life. If anyone has a reason to believe God is a God of suffering and hate, I do. But, I don't believe that. I have a question for you. It is kind of personal, so I understand if you don't feel comfortable answering it.
Why don't you believe in God or any god? Was there a certain person, experience, book, etc. that turned you against Christianity? What would be so awful about believing in God?
(Okay, so it was more like three questions.)
I also want to emphasize that I am asking with the upmost respect for you. The only difference between you and me is that I believe in Jesus. Why don't you?
(Okay, so maybe more like four questions haha)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 08:15:35 PM by Graybeard »

Offline Dante

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Re: Where is the Bible does God say He loves humanity?
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2015, 09:36:34 AM »
"One of the classic problems that people bring up is: How can a God of love send anybody to Hell? Well, there are several answers to that.

One of course is that God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us--after His image, after His likeness, the power to say “yes” or the power to say “no,” the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences.

Who created this hell? Where did it originate, hmmmm? From a loving god? Why would a loving god even create a "hell"? Sounds like a vengeful god to me, one not worthy of respect nor adoration. You should be ashamed to worship such a character.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.