Author Topic: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!  (Read 650 times)

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Offline lotanddaughters

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Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« on: July 23, 2014, 03:13:18 PM »
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." -1 John 5:7


1. Why don't the Jews believe this bullshit? And trust me . . . they believe some Goddamn bullshit.

2. Why the fuck "the Word"? Why the fucking stupid word-fucking-games?

3. Why the stupid fucking "and these three are one", unless you're trying to weasel-in some bullshit you pulled out of your ass? There isn't one Goddamn crumb of this bullshit in the Book of Genesis, even though Genesis has plenty of its own Goddamn bullshit.


I think I understand. God didn't want to bombard our asses with too much bullshit at once.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2014, 02:19:07 AM »
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." -1 John 5:7


1. Why don't the Jews believe this bullshit? And trust me . . . they believe some Goddamn bullshit.

2. Why the fuck "the Word"? Why the fucking stupid word-fucking-games?

3. Why the stupid fucking "and these three are one", unless you're trying to weasel-in some bullshit you pulled out of your ass? There isn't one Goddamn crumb of this bullshit in the Book of Genesis, even though Genesis has plenty of its own Goddamn bullshit.


I think I understand. God didn't want to bombard our asses with too much bullshit at once.

it's mentioned in the Old Testament. God says, "Let us make man in our image." The "us" refers to "Jesus." It's foreshadowing for the New Testament.

"The Word" also refers to Jesus.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2014, 03:26:02 AM »
The statement in the Old Testament about "making man in our image" was because the story originally referred to the Elohim, a group of gods which were pretty much human in appearance.  Saying that it referred to Jesus pretty much comes across as a retcon, and not a particularly well-conceived one.  The only reason it got any traction is because the Christians wanted to believe their religious beliefs were an improvement on Judaism.

The same process happened when Islam was founded; Mohammed originally was trying to reform Christianity, and when he was rejected, he and his followers wanted their beliefs to be an improvement on Christianity.

Offline jetson

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2014, 08:54:11 AM »
Well stated jaimehlers.

Nothing new to add, but I cannot escape the conclusion that most/all newer religions were an attempt to fix older religions, so to speak. Christianity and Islam are nothing more than a hijacked, freshly tailored version of Judaism, for example. The idea that so many Christians toss around about how it is no longer necessary to follow OT rules and regulations because Jesus arrived is evidence enough that it was tailored precisely because people were generally less willing to follow such nonsense. Enter peaceful Jesus.

Seeing believers fall away leaves a vacuum that MUST be filled with a new religion, you know, to keep the sheeple from going astray, etc. I can easily imagine that people were still seriously ignorant of the world, and thus the need to favor a "higher power" as an explanation for the unknown remained strong - just leave out the angry YHWH stuff, and change the focus from genocide and chosen people to cleansing sins, and all are welcome, yadda, yadda.




Online wheels5894

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2014, 09:12:02 AM »
Sorry, but can I add a little Greek to the discussion. In the John reference in the OP, the word 'word' is a translation of the word Logos in Greek which means a great deal more than word. Have a look here. What John is saying is not, really reduceable to a single word.

In John 1:1 we told 'In the beginning was the Logos.' This is again translated as word but means much more. It might better be translated as 'originating principle' for example. it was not missed by the Christian writers that creation in Genesis was performed by god's word. However what John writes is pretty consistent with the way the Christians of the late first century saw their god - starting to acknowledge Jesus as god but trying to avoid the accusation of polytheism by asserting the oneness of the three principles.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2014, 02:09:51 PM »
most/all newer religions were an attempt to fix older religions

BAM!
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2014, 04:13:46 PM »
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." -1 John 5:7
This verse, known as the Johanine Comma (Comma JohanneumWiki) should not be there. It has caused endless trouble.

The linked wiki article is worth reading.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online Andy S.

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2014, 12:13:44 AM »
Sorry, but can I add a little Greek to the discussion. In the John reference in the OP, the word 'word' is a translation of the word Logos in Greek which means a great deal more than word. Have a look here. What John is saying is not, really reduceable to a single word.

Out of all the meanings to the word "word" in John 1:1 my hunch is that the meaning to "logos" is "wisdom" or "reason".  According to the Wiki article you provided, "In Gnosticism the Logos is associated, or often paired with Sophia or wisdom".  In addition, Philo of Alexandria who lived at the time of Jesus (if he existed) equated "logos" with "wisdom".  According to this wiki article, Philo said, "the Logos was God's instrument in the creation of the universe".  "The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo 'the first-born of God'."  Does that ring a bell?......Col. 1:15.  This "wisdom" of God is described in detail in Proverbs 8:22-30 .     

Many early Church fathers equated the Greek term "logos" with "wisdom".  Quotes from the writings of Irenaeus, Origen, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Justin Martyr equate the Son with "Wisdom" in Prov. 8:22-30 and admit that he had been created by God as the beginning of God's works - Prov. 8:22.

Furthermore, Augustine, made the "Word/Wisdom" connection with Jesus about 410 A. D. in his famous De Civitate Dei (The City of God), Book XI, Chapter 24.  The great defender of the Trinity, Athanasius even admitted that Wisdom in Prov. 8:23, 30 was the Son: Discourse 1 Against the Arians.

One major problem is how can the "son" be created (Prov. 8:22) when the majority of Christians today say that Jesus was never created and was co-eternal with the Father. 

Oh yeah, by the way, the NT also explicitly equates Christ to being the "wisdom" of God (1 Cor. 1:24 and Luke 11:49).

Another major problem is that the "wisdom of God" is portrayed as a woman (Prov. 8:2,3,11).  Ummm.....well.....I guess this begs the question of.....Are the Christians who worship Jesus today really worshiping a hermaphrodite?  He's not only 100% man and 100% God as most Christians claim....He is also 100% man and 100% woman.  There is actually a binity within this thing called a Trinity.  Is that a quadrinity?     

In John 1:1 we told 'In the beginning was the Logos.' This is again translated as word but means much more. It might better be translated as 'originating principle' for example. it was not missed by the Christian writers that creation in Genesis was performed by god's word. However what John writes is pretty consistent with the way the Christians of the late first century saw their god - starting to acknowledge Jesus as god but trying to avoid the accusation of polytheism by asserting the oneness of the three principles.

I agree with most things you post Wheels but cannot agree with you on this last sentence.  I don't believe Christians of the late first century were "starting to acknowledge Jesus as god but trying to avoid the accusation of polytheism by asserting the oneness of the three principles".  There is not enough evidence to support that the first century Christians were asserting the "oneness of the three principles". 

The verse 1 John 5:7 is the clearest, and pretty much the only expression of a Trinitarian concept that mentions "oneness of the three principles" and like Graybeard pointed out, this verse is not found in the earliest Greek manuscripts and is omitted from most modern translations.  I don't believe there was any Trinitarian concept in the first century. 

 
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
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Offline King_Me

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2014, 09:00:59 PM »

it's mentioned in the Old Testament. God says, "Let us make man in our image." The "us" refers to "Jesus." It's foreshadowing for the New Testament.

"The Word" also refers to Jesus.

Also in Genesis (I'm not going to include the chapter or verse because someone rudely didn't include theirs ^^^^) God finds out Adam and Eve have eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and says "...they have become one of us...".   God says that we have become like him and his multiple personalities.  Maybe the trinity isn't real and in fact it should include all humans as equivalent to "god".
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Online wheels5894

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2014, 06:03:06 AM »

it's mentioned in the Old Testament. God says, "Let us make man in our image." The "us" refers to "Jesus." It's foreshadowing for the New Testament.

"The Word" also refers to Jesus.

No its is not! Elohim is a plural showing greatness not number. The 'us' refers to a heavenly council - you know angels and stuff, like in the beginning of Job. I would expect Satan was there but didn't have anything interesting to say.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2014, 08:38:01 AM »
The Elohim were not angels and so forth. They were El, the real creator god, his wife, probably Ashera, and their 72 sons and daughters. The idea that the "heavenly council" were angels is a Christian apologetic explanation, as was the idea that Elohim, which is indeed a plural, was an honorific title - it was not.

That this is the case is best shown when Aaron descends Mount Sinai and announces the idea of building an idol to the gods that brought you out of Egypt.

Ex:32:3: And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
Ex:32:4: And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Ex:32:5: And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
[1]So we see Aaron, who has just seen Jehovah is treating Jehovah as 'just another god from the council of gods."[/nb].

Later on, and in Deuteronomy. 1Kings, Judges, Jeremiah, Numbers, etc, etc, and as far as Micah,[2]  the people are advised to rid themselves of Ashera poles and other gods: gods who they saw as part of the council of gods.

Exo 34:12  Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
Exo 34:13  But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
Exo 34:14  For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

There are a few verses, I can't find them at the moment, in which El gives one god charge over Israel, and that god tells the Israelites that he will protect them in return for being the only god they worship. As I recall, all except the Hebrew Bible use an inaccurate translation. This bad translation, done by apologetics, implies that some "princes" were allotted the lands of the world and one prince received Israel (Later that "prince" is assumed to be Jesus and the others are conveniently forgotten.)

There is a short but interesting piece on the creation of Yahweh at http://web.archive.org/web/20091027143946/http:/www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2938/mythobaal.htm


 1. Here LORD is the translation of Jehovah = the one who is self-existent
 2. Mic 5:14  And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 08:41:42 AM by Graybeard »
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2014, 09:02:03 AM »
Deuteronomy 32:8-9

El shares the world among the divine beings, Yahweh gets the people of Jacob.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Hey, Christians! Explain 1 John 5:7!
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2014, 02:28:57 PM »
Deuteronomy 32:8-9

El shares the world among the divine beings, Yahweh gets the people of Jacob.

Some background to the words "divine beings".

The Qumran text is the earliest. It says literally. Sons of the gods.

The Hebrew text has changed the second word making - Sons of Israel.

The Greek text has changed the first word making - Angels of god.

The original meaning was edited to fit developing ideas about who were the sons of the gods. Originally they were other gods in the Canaanite Pantheon.

In the Hebrew text the phrase - Sons of the gods - has survived in another interesting passage.

Gen 6:2 the sons of the gods saw that the daughters of men were beautiful and took the ones they chose.
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