Author Topic: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold  (Read 3499 times)

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Offline Nick

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2012, 06:25:30 PM »
Never understood why the God thing liked to play "hide and seek".  Even more odd is that the other chartacters (Satan, demons, etc.) play it too.  Why?

The devil could show up and spoil God's hide and seek game.  That might piss God off.  Devil +1.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 06:28:04 PM by Nick »
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2012, 06:37:33 PM »
It would hardly be a violation of our free will as to whether or not to love someone merely by our being certain of that individual's existence.  In fact, quite the contrary, it isn't even possible to love someone whose existence you are uncertain of.


The people I love get hugs, help, advice, support, compassion and other very direct benefits. And I get them back in return.


And the people that I don't love still have my compassion. If I could stop a single plane crash, or protect thousands from a tsunami, or heal even jut one person of cancer or other medical condition, I would do it whether I ever met the person/people or not.


None of this "It was ParkingPlaces will" crap. None of that "Yes, 105 people died in the plane, but two survived, it's a miracle" stuff with me.


Nobody can be so omnipotent that they decide not to use their omnipotence. And nobody omnipotent would have the gaul to apply their own high standards to non-omnipotent beings of their own creation.


If Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant were basketball gods, would they create only six year olds to play with? How could that be satisfying in any way.


If you were a god, would you create the entire universe and then restrict the inhabitants to one lonely planet? Would you create them as stone-agers and leave them primitive for thousands of years? And get pissed at their puny minds and morals?


The whole story is consistent with ancient made up religions. It isn't consistent with anything related to reality.
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Offline 3sigma

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2012, 06:57:46 PM »
I know this might sound strange but somewhat regrettably No. I am absolutely certain of the existence of God or Creator may be a better name.

No, that doesn’t sound strange at all. In the US, 69% of religious believers are absolutely certain their belief is true despite the total lack of a shred of solid evidence or a single sound argument to support their belief. If you are so certain your god is real then please return to this thread and validate that belief. All you’ve said in that thread so far is that you cannot even provide a factual description of this god you are absolutely certain is real and that your belief is based on an unvalidated feeling you have.


If God's face appeared in the sky and it wasn't some kind of special effects it would be impossible to deny God's existence. Since I believe very strongly that freedom of choice is our greatest gift from our creator this would be in direct violation of that choice.

Oh dear. I hesitate to tell you this, but the physical existence of everything you see around you violates your free will to choose to deny its existence.


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On the second part of your post I'm afraid I do believe that God is omniscient but I spent quite a few years discussing that one with a friend of mine before he understood my point about fate.

Your god’s omniscience further violates your free will by completely removing your ability to make a choice. If your god is never wrong and knows everything—all events past, present and future—then it already knows the outcome of every tiny choice you will ever make before you make it (from your point of view). In that case, whenever you come to make a choice, you must make the choice your god has foreseen because it is never wrong. That is predestination. It abrogates your ability to make a choice. The only way you could have free will in that situation would be if your god isn’t omniscient or it makes mistakes. For example, it foresaw that you would choose one way, but you didn’t. It was wrong.
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. – David Hume 1711–1776

a3dtot

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2012, 07:13:57 PM »
a3dtot, I am just as convinced that there is no god as you are that there is one. How do you suppose we got so far apart? We apparently live on the same planet, and yet one of us looks at the world and sees a deity and the other does not.
I find it fantastic that we have such choices. From what I have learned the fact that you can choose not to believe is an incredible gift. What I believe does not seem to fit what most believe. If you believe in unselfish love toward others then you pretty much believe in the same God that I do. I just believe that there is much more involved with life in a spiritual since.

I find the question marvelous. Well, at least very, very interesting.


A majority of the theists that come here are convinced that there is a god, but mostly because he is mentioned in the Bible so often or something. Where does your certainty come from?
I have a friend who is Jehova witness and I have said the same as you. You cannot prove God by the Bible. That makes no since to me. For me the bible can be a great guide to understanding what may or may not be beyond what we percieve but how can you prove God exist by simply saying it's in the bible. That would be the same as saying that Elves exist because their in the book "The Hobbit".
Mine certainty comes mostly from a) seeing that all claims of a deity, regardless of religion, stem from ancient times, with no current interaction claimed (not counting scientologists maybe, but f**k them)
I couldn't agree more. I can't believe that in the 21st century so many still believe based on beliefs started hundreds to thousands of years ago. But my belief in God does not come from that. If as I say God exist then there must be something real to him and not just dogma but I would have to right a book to try and explain all of why I know God exist.b) better explanations of almost everything via science that indicates that no god is needed for us to be here and c) there is no noticeable advantage in being religious. Believers die at the same rate, have an equally wide range of life experiences and seem otherwise absolutely normal. Except that they believe. Granted, if they are getting an afterlife out of the deal, some might see that as a good thing. But here on earth, there is no advantage unless ones church has really good potlucks every week.
I completely agree with you on b above, of course my take is that God made it that way. But it is a very lame argument that because stars exist therefore God exists that is silly to me. I always point out to my religous friends that the bible only spends about a page and a half on creation. To me this would mean that God didn't feel it was very important and just did a quick reader's digest version of how he created the universe.
 I do have to disagree with you on your point c) Of course I don't know how your life is but I know in my own it has made an incredible difference. Because of my belief (as pointed out many times in the last 25 years by my wife) I have what could be called a blissful marriage. What I have learned from the one I call God taught me to see and love my wife for who she is not who she should be. The same with my children and the wonderful guidance I have been able to give them based on what I have learned from God. So for me it has had a very strong effect.
In other words, I see no sign of a god anywhere. The world is just as it appears it should be without one, and it doesn't help that the world appears to be actually worse off due to religious conflicts. Where do you see him, and why don't you think alternative explanations are not viable?


Added: You posted a response to 3sigma while I was writing this. Tell us more about fate. That is not a discussion we've had around here very often.
This would be a very long discussion and I have filled your post with red responses already but I will give it a whirl later that's a promise. I want to make it interesting.And note that you have already been charged with SPAG by a few folks. Which is our term for "Self-Projection as God".  You are being charged that you, as an individual, have customized religion to fit your wants and needs, regardless of tradition and what organized religions say about any given matter of faith. Be prepared to back your stance with more than "Well, it is how I want it to be" or some here will want to eat you alive. Because it does appear that you are giving us yet another customized version of Christianity, and we get five to ten new ones a month.
Ouch SPAG huh new term for me but a very good point. Actually I haven't found that a single thing I believe contradicts the Bible. I will freely admit that it contradicts almost all versions of the religous beliefs but I believe those are created by man. When I began studying this subject seriously many years ago I realized that the different sects of the Christian faith seemed to fit different personalities. People who like to be judgemental and carry guns and hate gay people tended to be babtist or something similar. Those who are very scholarly seemed to be drawn to Jehova witness (as my very good friend who knows the bible backwards and forwards) of course these are generalities and I don't really mean that all babtist are hate mongers or that people of other sects are not scholarly. I have been a methodist, a babtist, a mormon and a catholic because I found that each had much to teach. I am not against any of the sects or religions but I do not believe that if they are acting or believing in something that cannot be true and is simply based on the personality of the members of their respective church that I have to follow them to know that God exists. Yes it does sound SPAG but I cannot accept that the God of love that I know hates gay people or that a christian can possibly believe in the death penalty. I see religions or sects of christianity select how they want to believe. Many believe that Jesus is God and yet he states that he is not. I will be happy to defend what I believe and know and that is why I am here. I get better arguments from atheist than I do from so called believers. (sorry if there seems a little bitterness but I also run into people who believe we were riding dinosaurs 6000 years ago) If you want to say that I am charged with SPAG if I have to be that or compared with those that I have mentioned above I will wear it with a badge of honor and hopefully be able to make my point as well.


I guess it is a source of irritation because we have to learn a new religion each time it happens. And we tend to presume real gods would bet their message across much more universally.
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a3dtot

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2012, 07:24:12 PM »
What matters to what I call the "Real God" is based in the emotional part of our existence and not in the physical.

Mmm ... I'm wondering if you are aware of the rapidly growing scientific knowledge about the "physical" basis and function of our emotions  ;)

Here's a little primer that talks about the basic function of emotions, neurobiology, and the limbic system:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/e/emotion.htm

Animals rely heavily on their emotional systems to operate and survive in their natural worlds - no "God" or "it" required  :)
We cannot really decide what emotions to have - they are triggered by events usually beyond our control - I suppose we can decide to play a particular type of music that we know will elicit a particular emotion in ourselves, or deliberately place ourselves in an emotionally stimulating circumstance, or take a substance.  So we can learn to manage our emotions and to some extent control the actions we perform as a result of emotions.  But it is still just the ancient limbic (crocodile) brain we are playing with.
Actually I am aware of the scientific knowledge you are speaking of that actually what I was trying to say and have responded that I believe the connection of what is termed as spiritual is attached to our bodies through this part of the brain.
Many people believe that we think first and then we feel. I disagree with this. I have noticed in myself that what I feel determines what I think. If I am angry then I have angry thoughts, if I am driven I can accomplish a great deal in my work.
For me emotions and the effect God can have on them have to do with relationships. We must understand ourselves emotionally and love others in a good and productive way.

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2012, 07:28:11 PM »
a3dtot


Thanks for your response. I await your responses to others or more from you on the subject. In the meantime, might I suggest that you take a look at our instructions on how to properly quote another post when you are responding to it. Our instructions are located here:


http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html


If you have further questions on how to do this, PM me. It is far easier for others to read what you have written if you quote others using our standard, built in ability to do that clearly. That way you avoid having to use red text and other individually invented methods and the process is standardized.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2012, 07:54:45 PM »
I know this might sound strange but somewhat regrettably No. I am absolutely certain of the existence of God or Creator may be a better name.

No, that doesn’t sound strange at all. In the US, 69% of religious believers are absolutely certain their belief is true despite the total lack of a shred of solid evidence or a single sound argument to support their belief. If you are so certain your god is real then please return to this thread and validate that belief. All you’ve said in that thread so far is that you cannot even provide a factual description of this god you are absolutely certain is real and that your belief is based on an unvalidated feeling you have.



If God's face appeared in the sky and it wasn't some kind of special effects it would be impossible to deny God's existence. Since I believe very strongly that freedom of choice is our greatest gift from our creator this would be in direct violation of that choice.

Oh dear. I hesitate to tell you this, but the physical existence of everything you see around you violates your free will to choose to deny its existence.
I would assume that you and I could agree that the physical existence of everything we see is real and does not require a belief or choice. The God that I know is the existence of love itself and so I won't be accused of being SPAG at this point it is also in the Bible "God is pure unadulterated love." In answer to the question what is God. Love is something that we cannot see, while we may be able to see the results of it we cannot see it with our eyes only the expression of it.
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On the second part of your post I'm afraid I do believe that God is omniscient but I spent quite a few years discussing that one with a friend of mine before he understood my point about fate.

Your god’s omniscience further violates your free will by completely removing your ability to make a choice. If your god is never wrong and knows everything—all events past, present and future—then it already knows the outcome of every tiny choice you will ever make before you make it (from your point of view). In that case, whenever you come to make a choice, you must make the choice your god has foreseen because it is never wrong. That is predestination. It abrogates your ability to make a choice. The only way you could have free will in that situation would be if your god isn’t omniscient or it makes mistakes. For example, it foresaw that you would choose one way, but you didn’t. It was wrong.
I don't know if this will answer it for you but here it goes. When we discuss free will what exactly do we mean. As an example I live in a modern city and I have the bad habbit of smoking. When I get the urge for a cigarette and I am out I drive to the local mini mart to purchase a pack. Of course if not cigarettes any modern item can be used, a soft drink or a candy bar. But am I actually making this choice or is it because of the convenience of the store's location or the fact that cigarettes exist and make them an option in my life. Now consider a primative tribe in africa they do not even have the option of choice of those things I mentioned. They cannot choose to go to a local mini mart to purchase any of the items because there are none and there are no stores for them to go to. Also consider your free will to choose your work. In reality that all depends on many different things. Your financial ability to pay for higher education, the type of careers you were/are exposed to and even the distance you can or want to travel for that work. I live in an area based on oil, I work in the oil and gas business, my oldest son also, my son in-law and my brother. My youngest brother works in the power industry based on gas. Are these truly free choice or is it because of the circumstances around us. Unless I wanted to move hundreds to thousands of miles I really can't choose to be a lumber jack. In our area the choices are mainly oil and gas and the medical industry. Much of what we feel we choose is actually based more on our upbringing, our surroundings and our opportunities. So how much free will do we really have?

a3dtot

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2012, 07:57:17 PM »
Parkingplaces
Thanks I will do that. I will get the hang of this soon, it's all new to me.
And thanks for all the great responses.

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2012, 08:01:15 PM »
Actually I am aware of the scientific knowledge you are speaking of that actually what I was trying to say and have responded that I believe the connection of what is termed as spiritual is attached to our bodies through this part of the brain.
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But how, and where is this spirit attached? How is a spiritual entity "attached" to a physical brain? You do realize that it was theorized that the soul was attached at the pineal gland ( I think it was Descartes who said that, don't remember for sure.) Of course there is no evidence at all. Can you show be a brain scan with a soul in it?

Many people believe that we think first and then we feel. I disagree with this. I have noticed in myself that what I feel determines what I think. If I am angry then I have angry thoughts, if I am driven I can accomplish a great deal in my work.
Sure our emotional states can have an effect on our behavior. This doesn't mean that our thinking processes need to be enslaved to our emotions so that we go with our feelings (religion) rather than our brains (reason).

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For me emotions and the effect God can have on them have to do with relationships.
Relationships with other people or with God? And what do our emotions really mean? Our emotional states are not inherently representative of the truth.
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We must understand ourselves emotionally and love others in a good and productive way.
Not bad advice, but hardly needs divine sanction to be accomplished. Plenty of us here are far more emotionally honest and open than most theists. We don't need God to love our families and friends, and even those people we don't know. We do these things for its own sake, because loving and caring for one another is a bonding trait, a trait that has been a great strength to our species. One early man would not stand much of a chance against Arctodus Simius or a wooly rhinoceros, but a dozen of them working together would have a very good chance for a kill, and would be able to share the meat and have more than enough for all of their families.

This type of social attachment, working together for mutual advantage, are traits that are even common among non humans, including most apes and monkeys, wolves, elephants, and others. This caring for others and the accumulated attachment that we call "love" is a natural result of evolution as it is a trait that makes us more likely to survive as species, and certainly helps us get through the toughest times. And this predates anything like what you consider to be a God.

Yesterday we got a nasty snow storm here which dropped about 8 inches of snow in 3 or so hours. Not only did I clear my driveway, but my neighbors as well. I didn't need God to tell me to do it. He has always been a good and helpful neighbor, often clearing our driveway for us because he has a tractor with a snowthrower attachment. Well he had numerous heart problems this year and can not do it himself. I will take care of it for him. Again I don't need divine permission to do a good deed for someone else, I do it because its a good thing to do.

While it may not seem like a big deal, I think that the idea that when we do something good or demonstrate our love for others, its God shining through us belittles our own capacity to demonstrate this things without divine assistance. We possess the ability to good for others. When people choose evil, oh well, it's their free will, but when they choose something good, it's because God is helping them do it? This seems to be what most believers offer us, but it's just unbelievable to me.

And as ParkingPlaces suggested (he also posted the link) you should visit the quoting tutorial. You will find it extremely helpful, other users will not be confused and will be able to understand you better, and the mods won't get annoyed.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2012, 08:03:03 PM »
Parkingplaces
Thanks I will do that. I will get the hang of this soon, it's all new to me.
And thanks for all the great responses.
The quoting function really is essential. The tutorial is a helpful guide, and there is even a testing area so you can test proper quoting without interrupting normal forum functions.

Oh, and by the way, Welcome to the Forum!
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline 3sigma

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2012, 09:22:35 PM »
a3dtot,

Why did you ignore my first paragraph? Are you going to return to the other thread and actually validate your belief or not?


I would assume that you and I could agree that the physical existence of everything we see is real and does not require a belief or choice.

You said physical proof of your god would violate your free will to choose to deny its existence. It follows then that physical proof of the things around you similarly violates your free will to choose to deny their existence. If physical proof of your god’s existence violates your free will then physical proof of the things around you violates your free will. If physical proof of the things around you doesn’t violate your free will then physical proof of your god’s existence wouldn’t violate your free will. So either physical proof of something’s existence violates your free will or it doesn’t. Which is it? You can’t have it both ways.


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The God that I know is the existence of love itself and so I won't be accused of being SPAG at this point it is also in the Bible "God is pure unadulterated love." In answer to the question what is God. Love is something that we cannot see, while we may be able to see the results of it we cannot see it with our eyes only the expression of it.

Love is an emotion. It’s just a feeling you have. You are attempting to reify love, as many religious believers do, but your reification is invalid. Love doesn’t have an objective independent existence so it didn’t exist before life evolved. It isn’t some disembodied entity. Consequently, love couldn’t have created the universe, the Earth or life. Disembodied love couldn’t directly have a child, perform miracles, answer prayers or grant eternal life. All you are doing here is repeating your admission that your belief is based on nothing more than an unvalidated feeling.


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I don't know if this will answer it for you but here it goes…

You didn’t address my argument at all. You are behaving evasively. It is reasonable to define free will as the ability to make a choice, which is all your extended response did. I explained how that ability is abrogated by an omniscient god. Please address that argument.
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. – David Hume 1711–1776

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2012, 10:37:00 PM »
a3dtot,

Yes or no, could the deity you "know" exists actually not exist? Could you be wrong?

No.

You really shouldn't waste everyone's time here, then. This is a place for intellectually honest, mature and sane discussion. You're answer indicates you fall short in one of those areas. I, and a few other old timers here, have seen this before.

I've said this all before, so here's a link to one of the last times I've done this.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24000.msg534518.html#msg534518

Happy trails.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Dominic

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2012, 07:07:37 AM »
I am here at this forum to get an atheist point of view. I am fully prepared for any arguments.
One of the biggest problems I have are the attacks I recieve from the religous side. My take on a creator is not really accepted by most christians so I thought who better to ask than atheist. Hopefully I will be able to strengthen my understanding and open myself to new ideas.
I won't get into how I know God exist but for me it is not an issue of whether I believe it or not, it simply is true for me. I did not come about this belief through religous means. In general God is a being of perfect love and all things are done in order to achieve the enlightenment of his (God is neither male nor female just can't call him it) creations. I have no issues with evolution, astronomy or any other of the sciences as I am a fan of all. What matters to what I call the "Real God" is based in the emotional part of our existence and not in the physical. I fully accept that there is no physical proof of God, as a matter of fact, the lack of physical proof is of absolute importance to the understanding of what is known as God's will. If there is physical proof of God then there would be no choice. Free will is the most important part of our existence, because what I understand is that we must choose to love correctly in order for us to have the salvation that such beliefs are supposed to bring about.
Please ask any questions or make any comments.

Hi A3

I am a Christian and a Catholic.  Christians of various forms and denominations can sometimes be lazy, prejudiced, narrow minded, nasty and simplistic, often contradicting their own beliefs in the process.   Sounds like you've come across a few of them.

This site is more attractive to me than many Christian sites because -

- it forces me to find clarity in my own beliefs
- it quickly highlights questions and problems rather than glossing over them
- participants are more likely to be non conformist and not simply accept the local trend

The description of 'god' and the purpose of existence which you provide above seems almost obviously true to me now but it took me a long time to get there : - )

Hope you find what you are looking for.

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2012, 07:42:38 AM »
Since I believe very strongly that freedom of choice is our greatest gift from our creator this would be in direct violation of that choice. I believe that for us to love as the Creator wants us to love it must be of our own free will.

How exactly do we have free will, if religious institutions have been attempting to brainwash us with threats and lies, for the last 3000+ years?

We certainly have the free will to ignore their drivel, on the basis of the mistakes they make, but that's only with the help of giants who have stood before us. Without their contribution, we would likely be quaking, and totally owned by the Catholic church.

So yes, we have the same type of free will to throw off the yokes of religious oppression, as peasants do, to rid themselves of oppressors in feudal societies. (A long haul)

Your assertion comes back to what I have heard some Christians say: that the holy spirit chooses you arbitrarily. This revelation often comes to murderers and junkies, in prison.

To reharp what jaimehlers said: you can't have free will without information. You apparently have the information that God exists, and that God is love. If you have that information, then it would be silly to ignore it, and ignore God - somewhat like having no free will. By showing himself to you, God has effectively robbed you of your free will. So, you supposedly have the information to make a decision, but the decision has been made for you, because God chose you.

I know a Christian who was previously a ratbag, who went to church for some reason, and then he heard God say "Pete, this is your last chance". Thereafter, he fell down "like a sack of potatoes", and wept. Sound like free will to you?

Now, I don't mind God appearing in the sky, and telling me I have free will, but the theologies that I'm presented with, do not make sense, if free will is important. If God appeared to me and told me that I could serve him, or not, and there would be no punishment or reward, then that would be free will.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 07:46:32 AM by Add Homonym »
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Nick

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2012, 09:29:38 AM »
What if God came to you and said, "(fill in name), I want you to join Westboro Baptist in Topeka, Ks. and praise Me".  You then have free will to follow the Lord but a direct message like that would be hard to refuse...even if you had to wonder about the destination.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2012, 10:02:37 AM »
If God appeared to me and told me that I could serve him, or not, and there would be no punishment or reward, then that would be free will.


THAT sums it up nicely. I've said the same thing before but not so concisely. +1 because I'm keeping that one for posterity.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2012, 11:02:15 AM »
I am here at this forum to get an atheist point of view. I am fully prepared for any arguments.

I'm not sure these are not mutually exclusive. If you are here for another point of view, why argue?  Why would you need to be prepared for arguments? 

Quote
I won't get into how I know God exist but for me it is not an issue of whether I believe it or not, it simply is true for me.

I do not think there are things that can "be true for me", unless we are talking about taste.  "Vanilla ice cream is the best" may be true for me, but facts about objective reality cannot be.  In reality, is there or is there not a god?  That is a verifiable fact, just as much as whether I have a dog is a verifiable fact.  To say that the truth value of the statement varies from person to person is incorrect. 

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I did not come about this belief through religous means.

then how does that match up with this statement, just two sentences later:

Quote
I fully accept that there is no physical proof of God,

how can you "know" god exists without physical evidence?  It seems to me the only way to arrive at that belief is through some form of magical thinking and to say it is not religious is just a matter of semantics.  Whatever label you apply to it, it is not rational.

others have tackled the free will idea already.

So, if you are here to get our perspective, why have you not asked any questions?  I am confused.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2012, 02:03:00 PM »
I fully accept that there is no physical proof of God, as a matter of fact, the lack of physical proof is of absolute importance to the understanding of what is known as God's will. If there is physical proof of God then there would be no choice.

So all the times that god spoke to the prophets was untrue because this would have violated their free will to believe.

So all the miracles that the prophets performed, Parting of the seas, destructions of sinful cities, and failure to burn in hot furnaces, were untrue because otherwise the sight of god's magic would violate all of the observer's free will.

So Jesus was a liar and a fake because if god really did send down his son to do miracles then it would take away all the free will of those that had seen him.

So the holy ghost is a fake because anyone who heard the voice of the holy ghost would have his free will ripped from him as it would prove god's existence.

.. yeah .. right.. these were once physical pieces of evidence that have not been retained you know..The Ark and the Arc of the covenant, and the tower of Babel were supposedly real physical things that should still exist today. If they were found today, they would violate our free will supposedly, but those that saw them in their day did not have free will. How sad.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 02:11:31 PM by Brakeman »
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Offline Petey

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2012, 02:17:26 PM »
I am here at this forum to get an atheist point of view. I am fully prepared for any arguments.
One of the biggest problems I have are the attacks I recieve from the religous side. My take on a creator is not really accepted by most christians so I thought who better to ask than atheist. Hopefully I will be able to strengthen my understanding and open myself to new ideas.
I won't get into how I know God exist but for me it is not an issue of whether I believe it or not, it simply is true for me. I did not come about this belief through religous means. In general God is a being of perfect love and all things are done in order to achieve the enlightenment of his (God is neither male nor female just can't call him it) creations. I have no issues with evolution, astronomy or any other of the sciences as I am a fan of all. What matters to what I call the "Real God" is based in the emotional part of our existence and not in the physical. I fully accept that there is no physical proof of God, as a matter of fact, the lack of physical proof is of absolute importance to the understanding of what is known as God's will. If there is physical proof of God then there would be no choice. Free will is the most important part of our existence, because what I understand is that we must choose to love correctly in order for us to have the salvation that such beliefs are supposed to bring about.
Please ask any questions or make any comments.

After reading through most of this thread, I felt the need to point out a few inconsistencies and ask a few questions.

You did come to your belief through religious means, no matter how much you have since amended it.  See your later statements about the Bible, dogma, and omniscience vs. free will.  These are not the sources of a self-realized deity.  Religion gave you the ideas, which you then tailored to your personal preference.

As has already been mentioned, even if you have no issues with most sciences, you apparently have a problem with or are fairly ignorant about neuroscience.

If god is a being of perfect love, and god created everything, then where did evil (or lack of love, if you prefer) come from?

Quote from: a3dtot
What a fantastic response this is what I hoped for. Ambassador pony your question of could I be wrong. I know this might sound strange but somewhat regrettably No. I am absolutely certain of the existence of God or Creator may be a better name. Actually I may have ended up being an atheist except for the fact that I know He exists. I expect many at this forum to disagree with me, but most of the questions that atheists have are the same ones I have. I'm not really complaining, my life with what I call the creator has been wonderful, my problems are in understanding and trying to grasp the connection of the spiritual and the physical. I know that many in this forum may feel that the certainty of my conviction is part of the delusion but for me that would be un-true. This is a belief that I have fought against many times and even though I have some issues with some of the dogma, there is no way for me to deny what I am certain of. That is why I am here. I am hoping that with a wide variety of opinions it may help me clear up some of my own issues. Knowing that God exist, has actually made it more difficult for me not easier. Thanks for the responses so far and please keep them coming.

Your big mistake here is trying to differentiate between physical and "spiritual", whatever that is supposed to mean.  See my above comment about neuroscience.

The connection between physical and spiritual is that they are the same thing.  Whatever feelings or experiences you consider spiritual are nothing more than thoughts and emotions generated by your physical brain and endocrine system.  They may not be typical, and you may think that there's something special about them, but you need to realize that there's nothing metaphysical about them.

Quote from: a3dtot
Sorry it was meant specifically about God. If physical proof of God exist then you would have to deny reality in order to be an atheist. If God's face appeared in the sky and it wasn't some kind of special effects it would be impossible to deny God's existence. Since I believe very strongly that freedom of choice is our greatest gift from our creator this would be in direct violation of that choice. I believe that for us to love as the Creator wants us to love it must be of our own free will. I'm not a biblical scholar but one of my favorite parts of the new testament is the Beattitudes (if I'm spelling that correctly). Many of the passages says (paraphrasing here) You can obey the 10 commandments but without love it means nothing.
 On the second part of your post I'm afraid I do believe that God is omniscient but I spent quite a few years discussing that one with a friend of mine before he understood my point about fate. I would like that one as it's own post to be honest with you. It is not as simple as we would percieve it. My friend for most of our discussions always looked at fate as though it were in likeness to a game of chess. That kind of fate or destiny would probably even be unworkable for the Creator because it  would require constant updating.

Fate, eh?  Which one?  Clotho?  Atropos?  Decima?  Skuld?  I think you'll find that most people here view the generic idea of "fate" in the same light as the mythical figures representing said idea.  Unless, of course, you're talking about naturalistic determinism.  Then you'll likely find quite a few supporters, though it pretty much nullifies your ideas on free will.  And yes, you should probably start another thread on that topic.  I'd love to see another attempt at trying to squeeze the ideas of free will and omniscience into the same reality.

If you put any stock in the Bible, god did appear in the sky (amongst other places) to address people.  Was their free will negated then?  And if god appeared today, how exactly would that negate free will?  Are you saying that at the mere sight of this being, people would be unable to choose whether or not to obey it?  Or pass it off as an illusion, or advanced alien?

One last thing.  You need to re-examine your premise of love being the ultimate goal.  While love can bring great joy, it can also be the cause of great harm and sadness.  I believe the word you're looking for is empathy.
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Offline natlegend

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2012, 05:52:40 AM »
So, a3dtot, you KNOW god exists because the idea... makes you feel good? Is that about right?

Pfft... Next please!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2012, 01:03:26 PM »
a3dtot wrote:
Quote
I am absolutely certain of the existence of God or Creator may be a better name.

Would it then be fair to say you have no choice but to believe in the existence of the god?

How does that certainty you have differ from the certainty we would have if the god made its existence obvious?

Why would our free will be violated by being convinced of a god, but your free will would not?

How was your certainty in a god imposed upon you?
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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2013, 02:04:52 AM »
Sorry I haven't responded over the last few days. We just had a new granddaughter born today so I've been busy.
Thank all of you for your responses and to those who warned me, I have been bombarded with fantastic reponses and they are appreciated.

I have been hit with so many blows I am going to try and clarify my positions, ideas and beliefs or certainties. One subject that seems to be among the top 2 or 3 is fate so I will try and tackle it in a way that is more concise. I will admit that the belief in fate or destiny could or should be considered a belief. The idea of fate to me is tied to my understanding that Love is God. Love can be said to be an operation of the brain and I would agree, the difference comes from the idea that the brain function of love ties us to our creator. I can provide no proof of this, at least not in a physical way, the proof to me is in the communication that this connection provides. Since I believe that our existence is the product of Love's desire to create and give life to something that did not exist prior to it's creation. I believe that fate is determined in order to facilitate that creation.
The Creator, which is love, uses all parts of existence in order to create. The physical world is used for identification or gaining identity for something that did not have any prior to existence in this universe. Time is used to allow the creation of experience and the belief in a begining and an end of that existence which gives life urgency and meaning. Also included in this set of tools are the circumstances that this life places us in. Each of these circumstances are used to teach or bring about a desired result which is the enlightment of humankind for the attainment of eternal existence.
 When looking at the biblical stories through the eyes of modern understanding, much of the meaning is lost. As an example the story of Jesus and the stoning of the adulteres sounds like a good man making a good point and stopping a stoning. But placing it in the proper context it is much more. Today the taliban and those like them still use stoning as a tool of law and control. For me, imagining a man walking in front of a group of very devout and violent men and saying to them "Those who are without sin cast the first stone." Would take an incredible amount of courage and since we have not seen nor heard of any man attempting this today you would have to admit that even the possibility of this happening, ever, would be quite a feat.
  The reason I bring up these subjects is that I believe the intent of creation is to help in our development or creation. We started as very primative, possibly/probably evolving from apes. Our history has proven that we are violent and un-loving creatures and that we have shown little or no empathy or compassion for our fellow humans. The old testament contains the laws that helped to form civilization, to help in the change from barbarism to a somewhat functional society. In that time it was required that such horrific laws be created. In primative societies today there are brutal laws against theft, adultery, etc. because these issues can bring about terrible disruption to these societies. But these laws are not loving they are meant to provide the primative societies the basic requirements for functioning. The new testament brings about a new part of this process. The teachings of Jesus are mostly about love and loving one another. Forgiveness, non-judgement and understanding are now becoming a growing part of modern society. This allows for us to begin to live a new part in our history. Homosexuals are now being accepted because we are beginning to understand that they are natural and for me they are created that way. This enlightenment is based not on science, not on religion but on love and empathy for our fellow humans.
 Fate to me is not some giant sitting on a magical throne in the heavens determining the next chess move. Fate is the proccess which is used to create inside each of us the appriciation for love, for loving one another as we would want to be loved. This process has taken thousands of years, because the end result required is the real change in what many term as the heart. This change is one from primative un-loving people to eventually perfect loving people. Yes God could have created us to act this way but it would not have been real for us. We would have been no more than mocking birds simply doing as we were instructed or made to do, this is not life and it is not love.
  I know that this explanation may not be what you want from me. I will freely admit that I have no idea how fate is done. For me God, Love, Fate and Life all come together to get a result that matters. Loving one another is far more important than science, religion or anything else. Love, as I see God, wants only this for us. We may not agree on a lot of things but I do believe that most people do want love and to love each other, at least I hope so.

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2013, 02:38:47 AM »
First of all, a3dtot, congratulations on your new granddaughter!

I'm open to the idea that, somewhere out there or in here, there might be some kind of superhuman intelligence dropping an occasional clue to help various sentient species through a tough patch.  (I do have a bit of a problem with the "creator" label, as that invariably devolves into Argumentum Ad Turtles_all_the_way_down, or "Who created the creator?"  I see that as a minor problem, though, as we're already here and I'm more interested in where we're going next.)

Oddly enough, I have less of a problem with the phrase "Love is God" than with the usual "God is Love."  In fact, I use "Love" as shorthand for a phenomenon I sometimes encounter, and a friend once did stream-of consciousness writings which include the phrase "Love is very big."

I don't think I can agree 100% with you on the fate thing.  I see chaos playing a role here, making things somewhat unpredictable and uncontrollable.

And I have a question:  If we do successfully integrate this love/empathy lesson, do you think that there might be other levels to master?  If so, what do you think they could be?
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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2013, 02:52:20 AM »
Another subject discussed about my posts is the idea of free will. I will try and make my response on this subject shorter than my last. The points brought up about free will in the responses are all very legitimate. My understanding of free will is not so much about the physical situations that we are in but on the perceptions we have of them. Just to clarify, I believe that every experience in the physical world is pre-destined. I know that this may bring on some responses but that is ok. For me free will is not in choosing what we do but what we percieve. If two people see the exact same occurance each of them may choose to value that occurance differently. My personal beliefs tell me that homosexuality is a creation of God while obviously there are many who claim to believe who would have the exact opposite belief. Therefore if we were to experience the sight of two men kissing each other, one of us would see an abomination and I would see two people in love.
 I'm sure some of you would like to point out that my belief goes against the traditions and teaching of existing religions or churchs. I agree. That is why I am posting here. My free will, my perception of God is of a perfectly loving being and any belief that does not accept that reality is not one I am going to agree with. Which is why I said it doesn't fit the mold.
 If I am driving on a freeway and an accident occurs in front of me, while I did not control the fact that the accident occurred, I can choose to help. While this may require a physical response (pre-destined), my choice to do so was not. I know that fate and free will seem to be at odds but in my understanding they are not. An omnipotent God not only knows what is going to occur but also my response, but I do not. If I am a man who is more self absorbed I may be afraid or unwilling to help. If I am a man who has love and empathy for my fellow humans then my choice is obvious. So my free will is both my perception and my destiny but only to God not to me. My own experience is that I make a choice based on my beliefs and learn from the reactions to those beliefs. Where I would help those in the accident and would feel neither joy nor sadness at the injuries or lack thereof in the accident. The one who chose not to help may or may not feel regret at the lack of action they took at the accident. For me this lack of empathy or love for those in the accident means that this person is still learning about the value of love and empathy for others. The choices made based on a lack of empathy seem to lead to difficulties in life and relationships and a feeling of emptiness, (at least it was for me for a time in my life) and the possibility that this person may want to alter their lack of empathy. This would lead to choices based on that perception and their free will and the pre-destined life which hopefully would lead them to discover the value of an un-selfish life.
  All of lifes complexities are meant to help us understand and choose, with our own free will, a life of love and understanding. I know that this is not how most think of free will or fate but it is difficult for me to separate them when I see them as part of the same thing. (sorry only a little shorter)

Offline William

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2013, 02:55:47 AM »
I have been hit with so many blows I am going to try and clarify my positions, ideas and beliefs or certainties.

I think it's good that you came here to do this for yourself  :)  It takes courage.

I think you're on a journey - I recognise some of the landmarks of the state of mind you are describing, they were part of my own journey speeding away from the garbage of traditional religion.

But instead of making stuff up as go along to keep the mental safety net intact, I honestly think it will be more productive, faster, and less painful if you asked atheists a few simple questions e.g.:
1) How do atheists make sense of their lives.
2) Where do atheists get their morals from.
3) Can atheists be happy.

The answers might surprise you and  give you a glimpse of the destination in your journey to enlightenment  :) :angel:
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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2013, 03:02:43 AM »
What if God came to you and said, "(fill in name), I want you to join Westboro Baptist in Topeka, Ks. and praise Me".  You then have free will to follow the Lord but a direct message like that would be hard to refuse...even if you had to wonder about the destination.

Nick sorry I haven't responded sooner but we were having another grandchild. My belief is in a loving God and those at Westboro do not seem to be that loving and what you stated above would not happen. I have never been directed to do anything that is not based on perfect love. My understanding of that kind of love is one that is always and without exception an un-selfish love. While Westboro may claim to be christian based I would have to argue it is anything but.

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2013, 03:12:21 AM »
First of all, a3dtot, congratulations on your new granddaughter!

I'm open to the idea that, somewhere out there or in here, there might be some kind of superhuman intelligence dropping an occasional clue to help various sentient species through a tough patch.  (I do have a bit of a problem with the "creator" label, as that invariably devolves into Argumentum Ad Turtles_all_the_way_down, or "Who created the creator?"  I see that as a minor problem, though, as we're already here and I'm more interested in where we're going next.)

Oddly enough, I have less of a problem with the phrase "Love is God" than with the usual "God is Love."  In fact, I use "Love" as shorthand for a phenomenon I sometimes encounter, and a friend once did stream-of consciousness writings which include the phrase "Love is very big."

I don't think I can agree 100% with you on the fate thing.  I see chaos playing a role here, making things somewhat unpredictable and uncontrollable.

And I have a question:  If we do successfully integrate this love/empathy lesson, do you think that there might be other levels to master?  If so, what do you think they could be?

Astreja in answer to your question I don't think there is anything more than love. To convert ourselves (with what I believe to be the creator's help) from non loving or incorrect loving beings to a being of perfect love is the only point of existence. Love is an action, a way of living and perceiving life and as we begin to get better at it we begin to act upon it. Love and the sharing of love's perfection is something we could do for an eternity. I do believe it could take quite awhile to become perfect in love and the main thing we have to master is ourselves. It is not just a series of lessons that we must learn but a change in who we are and what we percieve.

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2013, 03:28:37 AM »
I have been urged to ask questions so here it goes.

By some of the responses I have recieved I feel I don't understand some points of views. I do understand asking for facts and that in many cases that is difficult for me to provide so I would like to ask the question to get a better idea of your perspective.

 Love is the most important thing to me. What is most important to you?
 
This is a literal question.

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Re: I know God exist but it doesn't fit the mold
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2013, 04:05:44 AM »
a3dtot wrote:
Quote
I am absolutely certain of the existence of God or Creator may be a better name.

Would it then be fair to say you have no choice but to believe in the existence of the god?

How does that certainty you have differ from the certainty we would have if the god made its existence obvious?

Why would our free will be violated by being convinced of a god, but your free will would not?

How was your certainty in a god imposed upon you?

Excellent questions.

I would agree that it is fair to say I have no choice in knowing that God exist, but I did and do have a choice whether to act upon it. I have done both. I have avoided acting on this knowledge for a good part of my life and have acted upon it for the latter portion.

I don't know how it would affect others only in how it has affected me.

The only part of my free will that has been violated would be the knowing part. I chose to try and understand what it means that God does exist and it was with my free will that I chose to accept what I have learned to be applicable to what I know.
I cannot say whether your free will would be violated or not. My statement was concerning a physical manifestation of God would then disallow no belief. I have never seen God so although I know he exist I did not know or understand who or what he was.

There have been three occasions in my life. The first was when I was a child and alone. The second involved an actual physical manipulation of events affecting myself and my brother. The third was concerning a form of communication and involved my wife (Who was not a believer.)

I know I am being vague concerning how the certainty of God being imposed upon me is answered. 1) These are very personal events 2) If I gave details you would have every right to believe I made them up. I don't use the events that proved to me God's existence. I use the wisdom and love that have helped me understand who and what he is to support that knowing. Even though these miraculous things happened to me, they were not enough for me to change myself. While I believed I did not understand now with the addittion of the wisdom I now understand the God I have known.