Author Topic: Faith [#2708]  (Read 892 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Faith [#2708]
« on: December 21, 2012, 05:08:18 PM »
As you like quoting from the Holy Bible here are some texts for you to ponder:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1:25)

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they
are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Evolution is claimed to be scientific, then why can't science prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt?

If belief in God is unscientific, then why can't science prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that God does not exist?

As neither the belief in evolution or belief in God can be proven scientifically, both come down to faith.

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.

On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7289
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2012, 05:20:59 PM »
Not much is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.  But that doesn't mean we need to have an answer.  I would rather take the time to get a better answer, than fill it in with something as silly as an imagined god.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6620
  • Darwins +791/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2012, 05:40:17 PM »
As neither the belief in evolution or belief in God can be proven scientifically, both come down to faith.


Sadly, you don't know enough about evolution to make that statement. You are simply parroting what other religious people have told you, and you assume that if they said it, then it must be true.


Even more sadly, it is the opposite that is true. Not only are they wrong about evolution, but they are wrong about the whole bible story as well. The difference is they probably actually believe the bible. They don't know what to think about evolution and the other sciences that contradict biblical claims, so they just proclaim it untrue, and you believe it.


The convenience of a claim is not what determines its validity. That the big bang and dinosaurs and fungi that zombieize ants are inconvenient to theology is your problem, not the problem of reality.


As I said, that is sad.


Edit: fixed grammar well enough to get a "C" if I'm lucky.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10498
  • Darwins +189/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2012, 06:24:29 PM »
Faith = foolishly accepting as true a concept or an idea without bothering to check for valid evidence. 

(can't remember where I got that so there)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline wright

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1938
  • Darwins +83/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "Sleep like a log, snore like a chainsaw."
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2012, 09:36:04 PM »
Evolution is claimed to be scientific, then why can't science prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt?

Depends on the definition of "any shadow of a doubt". All theories formulated by using the scientific method are provisional: some new discovery in a given field may cause the original theory to be changed. This is a frequent occurrence in science, including evolutionary theory. It is one of science's great strengths that new evidence is objectively considered.

I'm not going to go into the evidence for and of evolution for a drive-by poster. If you have the inclination, join the forum. I and perhaps others will try to correct your misconceptions.

Quote
If belief in God is unscientific, then why can't science prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that God does not exist?

Ridiculous. It is impossible to prove a negative. Can you prove there isn't an invisible, undetectable Tyrannosaurus living in my closet? See how that works?

Probably not.

It is on the one making a positive claim to provide proof. If you claim that god exists, then prove it.

Quote
As neither the belief in evolution or belief in God can be proven scientifically, both come down to faith.

Again, join the forum if you have the courage inclination. Or educate yourself; the evidence for evolution is abundant and some very good works have been written in recent years for laymen like you and I. You might start with Your Inner Fish, by Neil Shubin pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/03/neil-shubin-you.html.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline Garja

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 759
  • Darwins +38/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2012, 10:09:32 PM »
Why cant you provide evidence of god beyond a sha..... okay, beyond any doubt.... like... at all.... any empirical evidence... at all.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3041
  • Darwins +270/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2012, 02:27:22 AM »
If belief in God is unscientific, then why can't science prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that God does not exist?

Because science has far better things to do than turn over every single rock in the vastness of the universe.  Not only do we not yet possess the ability to travel very far through space; we don't even have a coherent definition of this "god" thing.  How can we look for it if we don't know what we're looking for?

I think it's quite reasonable to withhold belief in something until we have physical evidence for it.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12682
  • Darwins +335/-85
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2012, 04:52:33 AM »
Wow! I think I am .. saved! Someone, quick! Poor water over me and Baptise me in the love of Jesus.


























I don't have to sleep with him, do I?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline kaziglu bey

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
  • Darwins +121/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • There is no Big Brother in the sky.
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2012, 05:07:29 AM »
As you like quoting from the Holy Bible here are some texts for you to ponder:
Preparing to ponder.

Quote
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1:25)

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they
are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
So what?

Quote
Evolution is claimed to be scientific, then why can't science prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt?
Define "beyond a shadow of a doubt". Chihuahuas and Great Pyrenees are the same species. So are wolves. We have both chihuahuas and great Pyrenees because human beings have selectively bred these characteristics from wolves. Their genes are merely being expressed in different ways. Congratulations, evolution is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Quote
If belief in God is unscientific, then why can't science prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that God does not exist?
Because it is not NECESSARY for science to disprove God. It IS necessary for those who assert that there is a God provide evidence that demonstrates "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that God exists. For a guy who is supposedly everywhere, God leaves NO evidence of his existence. His massive flood, which as I have demonstrated on this forum is physically impossible, left absolutely no evidence whatsoever. A flood as described in the Bible, killing everything other than the contents of the ark, would have left more than enough evidence to demonstrate that such an event occurred. We have fossil records of much less successful extinction events than this dating back to 250 million years or more. If THAT evidence can be found, the flood evidence should be able to be easily found. You should be able to go out into your backyard, dig down a meter or so, and find a treasure trove of fossils. Yet this just isn't the case. If you are testing a hypothesis, then if it is true, the evidence predicted by the hypothesis should emerge. In the case of God and his flood, this does not happen. When making a positive claim, the hypothesis "There is a God and it is the one in the Bible", then the evidence corresponding to the Bible should be there, and if it is not, then the hypothesis is FALSE. Damn I love science.

Quote
As neither the belief in evolution or belief in God can be proven scientifically, both come down to faith.
This is just being silly. No, it is not down to faith, because I have just demonstrated that there is evidence for evolution, and there is not evidence for God. Faith is believing something WITHOUT evidence. Since there IS evidence for evolution, belief in evolution (or as I prefer to call it, "acceptance of the theory of evolution as the best explanation for the diversity of life forms on our planet based upon overwhelming evidence", because it's not really a belief in the same way as religion is a belief), evolution is NOT faith based. Since there is no evidence for God, belief in God IS faith based.

And anyways science doesn't seek to "prove" anything. Science proposes hypotheses to explain some phenomena, and then test that hypothesis to gather evidence, whether that evidence supports the claim or not. If the evidence supports the claim, other scientists test the hypothesis, and gather evidence, and see if it supports the claim. If it the evidence consistently suggests the hypothesis, then the hypothesis is accepted until evidence to the contrary comes along, at which time a better explanation is required and a new hypothesis tested. Science doesn't claim to be able to prove the absolute truth about everything (religion however does make this claim). Science seeks to find explanations for our universe and use that knowledge to improve the human condition. That's why you are emailing us and not sending us a stone tablet on a donkey. Science is USEFUL. Religion is not. It has not provided a satisfactory explanation of ANYTHING. In fact science has repeatedly demonstrated that the hypotheses put forth by religious people were false. To say that both religion and science are faith based is itself a faith based position.

Quote
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.

On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
Like the sand that is soaked in the blood in which you willingly bathe for your own salvation? How righteous indeed.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5074
  • Darwins +585/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2012, 04:47:09 PM »
Evolution is claimed to be scientific, then why can't science prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt?

If belief in God is unscientific, then why can't science prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that God does not exist?

As neither the belief in evolution or belief in God can be proven scientifically, both come down to faith.
I frankly don't care about the Bible verses, but I thought I'd respond to these.

Science can't prove anything beyond any shadow of a doubt, because science isn't about that.  Science isn't about 'proving' things to begin with.  It's about coming up with a rational framework for understanding the universe as best we can.  That's why evolution is scientific - because it explains the wide variety of organisms on this planet and in the fossil record better than any other theory (scientific or not) that exists.  It helps us do things because of that knowledge.

By the same token, belief in God is not scientific because it doesn't explain anything, it just posits a god who decided that things should be this way rather than some other way.  It doesn't help us actually do anything at all.

Evolution is in no way based on faith.  The fact that you think it does means only that you don't understand it in the first place.  If someone came up with an explanation which fit the facts better than evolution, and was able to demonstrate this in a convincing manner, that explanation would supplant evolutionary theory.  But right now, no theory can possibly do that.

Offline Irish

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3153
  • Darwins +18/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Moraxella catarrhalis on BA
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2012, 12:23:54 AM »
As neither the belief in evolution or belief in God can be proven scientifically, both come down to faith.

1.) Evolution isn't a belief. Like gravity and atoms it is a theory; not a belief.
2.) My degree in a biological science begs to differ than evolution can't be proven.
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2428
  • Darwins +130/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2012, 07:37:17 AM »
If belief in God is unscientific, then why can't science prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that God does not exist?

If you take a course in logic, you will learn why.


However, I don't think you have the capacity to understand the significance of dihydrogen monoxide.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline EV

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 624
  • Darwins +52/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Philosopher, Atheist, Musician, Philanthropist
    • My Website
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2012, 09:26:33 AM »
As neither the belief in evolution or belief in God can be proven scientifically, both come down to faith.

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.

On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.


Here you go mate, I fixed that for you:

My hope is built on nothing less
Than scientific thought and logical tests.
I dare not trust religious bull
'Coz it's not verifiable.

On religion- crazy writings- I'll pass,
Creationism makes you look an arse.
With logical thought you need a hand:
Let's bury you in shifting sand.
Quote
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Faith [#2708]
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2012, 10:33:47 AM »
As you like quoting from the Holy Bible here are some texts for you to ponder:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1:25)

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they
are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Evolution is claimed to be scientific, then why can't science prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt?

If belief in God is unscientific, then why can't science prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that God does not exist?

As neither the belief in evolution or belief in God can be proven scientifically, both come down to faith.

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.

On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
Ahh yes quoting from a book I think is farie tales as administered by con men with statements that if I don't believe it, I am a fool.

Take a step back and ask yourself, if someone quoted a different book, a book with talking animals, people rising from the dead, cures for leprosy that involved magic words...that if someone didn't believe the contents of said book, they were a fool. Would that make you feel foolish for not believing this other book?

Somehow I'd think it wouldn't affect your thought process one bit.

So why did you think it would convince us?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.