Author Topic: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers  (Read 1712 times)

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Offline Quesi

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You know, right now, my life is all about the life of a 6 year old.   Ballet classes.  Chess classes.  Piano recitals.  Playdates and birthday parties and Mo Willems books.  Assurances that she doesn’t need to decide this week whether she is going to be an artist or an entomologist or a veterinarian when she grows up.  There is time to decide.  I love listening to her tell me about her interpretation of the world, and the events that she observes.  I love her questions.  It is such a wonderful age, full of such joy and discovery, and although they share so many common characteristics, 6 year olds have such clearly defined personalities. 

I keep watching the videos of interviews with the parents of the children, all ages 6 and 7,  who were killed in the shooting.  The little artist who loved the sea, the little girl whose father said she was the family’s little CEO, the mischievous little boy, the little boy who wanted to know how old he had to be to sing on stage, the little girl who loved horses, whose parents promised her a pony for her 10th birthday.  I don’t know why I do it, but I keep watching these videos.  And I weep. 

I weep because these innocent lives were lost, and these children will never reach their dreams.  They will never fulfill their potentials.   They are gone. 

You Shin, believe that they are in heaven.  Their parents believe that they are in heaven.  Holding hands with their friends.  Under the loving supervision of Jesus and their principal and their beloved teachers.  Looking down lovingly on their families.

These parents say that they believe this.  Then why are they crying?  Why are they mourning?  Shouldn’t they be celebrating?  So many of the reporters interviewing the parents believe this too.  Why are they fighting back tears?  The first responders, who set up a triage station in hopes of saving some lives.  Why aren’t they happy?  These kids could have lived a few more years.  They could have sinned.  They could have lost their chance at an eternity in paradise.  Why aren’t all these believers happy?

According to you Shin, these innocent little 6 and 7 year olds get a free ticket to heaven.  If they had lived a few more years, they most certainly would have had the opportunity to sin, and they might have failed the audition to get into heaven and they would have been condemned to death or hell or whatever you think happens to those of us who don’t pass your god’s tests.

So why aren’t you celebrating, Shin? I know you find the question of whether stuff is predestined very interesting.  But whether they were saved by these brutal murders, or whether they really had no potential to lose because it was their destiny to die so young, isn’t it wonderful that they are guaranteed an ETERNITY of wonderfulness?

I hear the parents, talking about their dead children as angels in heaven, and the parents are so clearly  suffering.  Really suffering.  If they really believed, wouldn’t they be celebrating?  I can’t help but feel that on some level, they really know it is not true.  Their children are gone.  Gone.  Gone forever.  They are not holding hands on clouds and taking turns sitting in Jesus’s throne.  Their lives are over, and their parents know it.  Their parents mourn the ponies they will never ride and the paintings they will never paint and the songs that they will never sing and the footprints they will never again leave on a beach.  I mourn with them.  I mourn because I feel with every inch of my being, that these kids were should have experienced these things.  And so much more.   

Like every parent, I imagine how I would feel if I were the parent of one of these children.  I try to imagine how I would feel as me.  And then I try to imagine how I would feel if I were a believer.  I try to imagine a parallel situation.   And this is the best that I can do. 

I imagine, that 20 years from now, my beautiful daughter has fulfilled her life’s dream, and is selected to be part of a small, elite crew, whose mission is to colonize Mars.   I will never see her again.  I will not dance at her wedding.  I will not snuggle my future grandchildren, and spoil them with grandmotherly gifts.  I will be cheated out of the future that I had imagined.  But my daughter will be happy.

How would I feel?  Sure, there would be nights that I might privately cry a little bit out of selfishness, perhaps a little resentful about the fact that I did not get to enjoy the parts of my daughter’s life that I felt entitled to enjoy.  But mostly, I would be happy.  Happy for her.  Proud.  There is nothing I want more than my daughter’s happiness.   And if I believed that she was happy, fulfilled, living out her potential, that joy would far outweigh my selfish feelings of being cheated out of anticipated milestones. 

I would miss her.  But if she were well, if she were happy, I would celebrate.  Her joy, her well-being, would outweigh my selfish feelings of not having her near me. 

If these parents really really really believe that their kids hit the jackpot, skipped the audition and went straight to paradise for all of eternity, why are they not celebrating?

I can’t help but feel that deep down, as much as they want to believe, they know it is not true.

Offline Nick

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 10:20:30 AM »
I agree with your thoughts.  I was trying to remember how I would have thought about all of this if I were still Catholic?  Religion is more of a security blanket I think.  Its how people deal with such horror like this.  But you are right...deep inside they have to be questioning...even if just for a moment.  They have to know that it might not be real which causes the pain to come to the surface.

Still can't even begin to imagine what a parent would feel having something likethis happen.  Anger, sadness, despair all rolled together.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 01:46:59 PM »
Look how people act at funerals. Even if the person was a really bad person, they are up in Heaven looking down. Except of course the guy who did the shooting the victims here. He's burning in hell they can take comfort in that.

I wonder if anyone is praying for the father/brother who lost their mother?wife and son/brother in this tragedy? Or are they praying they burn in hell, too?

-Nam

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2012, 02:11:45 PM »
My aunt just died on Monday morning from heart failure. I expect all the things Quesi talked about in the OP to be talked about at the funeral and after. And I'll bite my tongue the entire time, as ambushing family members while they are grieving is inappropriate and rude.

Quesi, thank you. As usual, your eloquence and personal touches made a beautiful read. You have a knack for saying what I'm thinking far better than I am able to.

My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2012, 02:15:51 PM »
Thank you Jag.  I'm sorry about the loss of your aunt.  I know nothing about her, or her life, or her age, but it is my hope that the funeral and after events are also be filled with stories of her accomplishments, and the ways in which she touched the lives of the people around her.   

Offline jetson

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2012, 02:18:57 PM »
Great thoughts Quesi, and poignant.

It must be very difficult to face reality for so many people.  I haven't had that particular baggage in my life, really.  I've never felt convinced about any after life, or eternal torture.  Only in my later years though, have I felt the true freedom of knowing that I don't have to pretend anymore.  I don't have to pay respect to something that is so demonstrably missing, in order to appease myself.

As much as it would hurt me deeply to lose a child in such a horrific way, I would never feel compelled to think he is possibly better off.

Offline none

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2012, 02:58:54 PM »
You know, right now, my life is all about the life of a 6 year old.   Ballet classes.  Chess classes.  Piano recitals.  Playdates and birthday parties and Mo Willems books.  Assurances that she doesn’t need to decide this week whether she is going to be an artist or an entomologist or a veterinarian when she grows up.  There is time to decide.  I love listening to her tell me about her interpretation of the world, and the events that she observes.  I love her questions.  It is such a wonderful age, full of such joy and discovery, and although they share so many common characteristics, 6 year olds have such clearly defined personalities. 

I keep watching the videos of interviews with the parents of the children, all ages 6 and 7,  who were killed in the shooting.  The little artist who loved the sea, the little girl whose father said she was the family’s little CEO, the mischievous little boy, the little boy who wanted to know how old he had to be to sing on stage, the little girl who loved horses, whose parents promised her a pony for her 10th birthday.  I don’t know why I do it, but I keep watching these videos.  And I weep. 

I weep because these innocent lives were lost, and these children will never reach their dreams.  They will never fulfill their potentials.   They are gone. 
...
yep, they are dead.
they reached their potential.
there is nothing logical or reasonable which is comforting to say they didn't.
you got priorities.
you know what they are.
if you need any help ask, rejection is stressful and take care of that which you have.
I don't feel it is necessary to address anything else in the OP.
if I must acknowledge _________ .
none.
I didn't prevent it.
I could have given the proper allocation of resources, but I didn't have awareness of those resources until now.
now that I am aware of those resources I need to use them to prevent another murder.
yes, I shed tears I grieve and that grief is motivating.
some people will kill themselves over this issue others will not.
I don't want to lose those people, they are vitally important and they have a message to share and that message should be "murder is wrong and suicide is wrong" the method they choose to express that message and enforce it doesn't need to be politicized in to a different message.
it is plain and simple "murder is wrong and suicide is wrong." if they can't do it I will do it because I hate death and death is not mandatory.
if this is offensive then I apologize but this is they way I see it.

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2012, 03:15:08 PM »
Shouldn’t they be celebrating?

So why aren’t you celebrating, Shin?
Death is no cause for celebration. Under any circumstance. Especially that of children.

I can’t help but feel that deep down, as much as they want to believe, they know it is not true.
Most likely, they are not believers & even if they were, they would still have to know the truth about hell, which was corrupted along the ages. So, right now, they probably don't believe their children are in Heaven.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 03:30:11 PM by SHIN KAIRI »
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline carstensenscott

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2012, 03:19:42 PM »
Power. Thanks Quesi. Facing the reality of the situations for believers is to real, they cannot accept reality in those situations because the security blanket of religion will short circuit and result in denial of faith..the conundrum conuns on.

Offline none

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2012, 03:24:18 PM »
You know, right now, my life is all about the life of a 6 year old.   Ballet classes.  Chess classes.  Piano recitals.  Playdates and birthday parties and Mo Willems books.  Assurances that she doesn’t need to decide this week whether she is going to be an artist or an entomologist or a veterinarian when she grows up.  There is time to decide.  I love listening to her tell me about her interpretation of the world, and the events that she observes.  I love her questions.  It is such a wonderful age, full of such joy and discovery, and although they share so many common characteristics, 6 year olds have such clearly defined personalities. 

I keep watching the videos of interviews with the parents of the children, all ages 6 and 7,  who were killed in the shooting.  The little artist who loved the sea, the little girl whose father said she was the family’s little CEO, the mischievous little boy, the little boy who wanted to know how old he had to be to sing on stage, the little girl who loved horses, whose parents promised her a pony for her 10th birthday.  I don’t know why I do it, but I keep watching these videos.  And I weep. 

I weep because these innocent lives were lost, and these children will never reach their dreams.  They will never fulfill their potentials.   They are gone. 
...
yep, they are dead.
they reached their potential.
there is nothing logical or reasonable which is comforting to say they didn't.
you got priorities.
you know what they are.
if you need any help ask, rejection is stressful and take care of that which you have.
I don't feel it is necessary to address anything else in the OP.
if I must acknowledge _________ .
none.
I didn't prevent it.
I could have given the proper allocation of resources, but I didn't have awareness of those resources until now.
now that I am aware of those resources I need to use them to prevent another murder.
yes, I shed tears I grieve and that grief is motivating.
some people will kill themselves over this issue others will not.
I don't want to lose those people, they are vitally important and they have a message to share and that message should be "murder is wrong and suicide is wrong" the method they choose to express that message and enforce it doesn't need to be politicized in to a different message.
it is plain and simple "murder is wrong and suicide is wrong." if they can't do it I will do it because I hate death and death is not mandatory.
if this is offensive then I apologize but this is they way I see it.
http://www.futurity.org/health-medicine/inflammation-chemical-linked-to-suicide/

Offline Quesi

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2012, 03:44:00 PM »
Thank you everyone for responding.  This piece just poured out of me this morning.

Shin, thank you for responding.  I addressed a number of questions to you, and I'm still not sure I understand your answer. 

Shouldn’t they be celebrating?

So why aren’t you celebrating, Shin?
Death is no cause for celebration. Under any circumstance. Especially that of children.


I agree that death is no cause for celebration because I believe death is the end of life.  You believe that death (for some) is the beginning of a beautiful eternity.  Don't you?

And if I remember correctly, you believe that the world is going to end in the next 7 years or so.  These kids were, according to your predictions, never going reach adulthood anyway.  They were never going to become parents themselves.  Have jobs. 

But they might have had the opportunity to sin in those 7 years. 

And if they had sinned, and if they had passed your god's mysterious cut off date for childhood salvation, they would have spent eternity in hell or dead or whatever it is that you believe. 

But these kids didn't have a chance to sin.  They went straight to heaven.  If you believe all of these things that you say that you believe, why would this not be a wonderful thing? 

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2012, 03:49:00 PM »
I agree that death is no cause for celebration because I believe death is the end of life.  You believe that death (for some) is the beginning of a beautiful eternity.  Don't you?
Yes.

And if I remember correctly, you believe that the world is going to end in the next 7 years or so.  These kids were, according to your predictions, never going reach adulthood anyway.  They were never going to become parents themselves.  Have jobs. 
Correct.

But they might have had the opportunity to sin in those 7 years. 
Yes.

But these kids didn't have a chance to sin.  They went straight to heaven.  If you believe all of these things that you say that you believe, why would this not be a wonderful thing?
Which brings us always to the same/deepest question(hardest to answer) : "Is everything predetermined or not?"
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2012, 04:17:32 PM »
None?  Are you ok?  I'm not sure I understood your first response to my post, but when you copied it and re-posted it and then put the link at the bottom, I became even more confused.

Are you trying to demonstrate that people commit suicide due to side effects of taking this inflammation drug?    Are you reaching out for support?  What's up?

Offline none

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2012, 04:28:27 PM »
None?  Are you ok?  I'm not sure I understood your first response to my post, but when you copied it and re-posted it and then put the link at the bottom, I became even more confused.

Are you trying to demonstrate that people commit suicide due to side effects of taking this inflammation drug?    Are you reaching out for support?  What's up?
I am doing ok.
If I can just keep myself alive.
It is a constant engagement that hasn't ceased since I existed and I don't plan on changing that.
the word is chemical not drug, the chemical was not administered as a drug.
thank you for showing some interest... I discussed more than myself in that post.

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2012, 04:30:28 PM »
I understand what you were trying to get across here, Quesi, but I have to disagree with you on one point.  I don't think it's inconsistent for Christians to feel sorrow because of death, or try to prevent an untimely one.  It's my understanding that Christians in general (or at least some sects, I don't know how widespread it is) see life as the one chance a person has to establish a relationship with God, and so if someone dies, then they're being robbed of part of that opportunity.  It's the same reason some Christian sects believe in shriving someone's sins before they die, while others believe that if one "comes to Jesus" even in the last moment of their life, that they are considered to be saved.  Because they had the chance to establish that relationship.

My point is that you shouldn't try to act as if Christians are being inconsistent because they try to keep someone from dying, or because they feel pain and sorrow because of things like that school shooting.  It won't help to try to confront Christians with what you see as an inconsistency, because to them, it's consistent with what they actually believe.  You have to address what they actually believe, or else you might as well not have spoken at all.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2012, 04:36:25 PM »
Thank you jaimehlers.  That is an interesting perspective.  I still don't understand.  Which is why I tried to identify with the emotions by creating the "my daughter is going to colonize Mars and I'll never see her again" scenario, because I thought it would get me closer to understanding.  I'd never see her again.  I'd miss her, I'd miss the life that I had imagined us having together, with milestones and all, and I'd be a little sad.  But mostly proud and happy. 

Lori, I know you have a very different set of beliefs.  I'd be interested if you would be willing to share. 

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2012, 04:46:57 PM »
I understand what you were trying to get across here, Quesi, but I have to disagree with you on one point.  I don't think it's inconsistent for Christians to feel sorrow because of death, or try to prevent an untimely one.  It's my understanding that Christians in general (or at least some sects, I don't know how widespread it is) see life as the one chance a person has to establish a relationship with God, and so if someone dies, then they're being robbed of part of that opportunity.  It's the same reason some Christian sects believe in shriving someone's sins before they die, while others believe that if one "comes to Jesus" even in the last moment of their life, that they are considered to be saved.  Because they had the chance to establish that relationship.

My point is that you shouldn't try to act as if Christians are being inconsistent because they try to keep someone from dying, or because they feel pain and sorrow because of things like that school shooting.  It won't help to try to confront Christians with what you see as an inconsistency, because to them, it's consistent with what they actually believe.  You have to address what they actually believe, or else you might as well not have spoken at all.
wtf does untimely death have to do with anything?
talking shit about what christians do because they told you some shit about them, fuck.
Christians are not interested in longevity.
If they were they would quit saying people have to die.
they rush in at bed side all to fucking quick when you are going to die and talk a bunch of shit always about how sad death is....but hey you get the bonus round Jesus!
Longevity is incompatible with death.
unless you eat that which is dead and not all dead things should be eaten ( but that is just an opinion maybe all dead things can be consumed I don't know but it doesn't matter because I like to share ).
Christians... yeah great people.
I was one deluded asswipe of a person before I became anti-theism, but now I feel much more comfortable about myself and death is not mandatory unless you want to die.
 ;D
what do Christians believe? I didn't quite understand what you wrote in your post something about untimely death being prevented not untimely death not mandatory.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 04:53:58 PM by none »

Offline none

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2012, 04:53:00 PM »
Thank you jaimehlers.  That is an interesting perspective.  I still don't understand.  Which is why I tried to identify with the emotions by creating the "my daughter is going to colonize Mars and I'll never see her again" scenario, because I thought it would get me closer to understanding.  I'd never see her again.  I'd miss her, I'd miss the life that I had imagined us having together, with milestones and all, and I'd be a little sad.  But mostly proud and happy. 

Lori, I know you have a very different set of beliefs.  I'd be interested if you would be willing to share.
maybe there is a good reason to not colonize mars...
um, we don't need to.
sure we can visit but who wants to colonize anything? aren't we done colonizing as a species?

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2012, 04:57:32 PM »
I only just figured it out myself, Quesi.  A better way to look at it is as if someone you love was going to be stuck in metaphysical carbonite - they could still move around and do things in Heaven (or in Hell), but they would stay the same as they were from that moment on.  They'd never be able to grow to be more than they were at that moment, never be able to learn anything more than they knew at that moment.

I'd actually feel pretty sorry for them.  Being robbed of the opportunity to do anything new, even if they get to live forever, is rather sad to contemplate.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2012, 05:12:00 PM »
I only just figured it out myself, Quesi.  A better way to look at it is as if someone you love was going to be stuck in metaphysical carbonite - they could still move around and do things in Heaven (or in Hell), but they would stay the same as they were from that moment on.  They'd never be able to grow to be more than they were at that moment, never be able to learn anything more than they knew at that moment.

I'd actually feel pretty sorry for them.  Being robbed of the opportunity to do anything new, even if they get to live forever, is rather sad to contemplate.

Ewww.  Sort of like that Ann Rice novel (that was made into a movie with Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise) in which the little girl is made into a vampire, and remains a little girl for hundreds of years. 

I guess the bottom line is that there are as many images of the afterlife as there are theists.    I've actually asked some believers if when children die, they are children in the afterlife.  Some say yes, they get to keep their innocence and enthusiasm.  Some think that old people become young again in the afterlife.  Still others think that the "soul" is so complex, that it is greater than anything contained in the mind, or in life experience, and that this soul arrives in heaven either knowing everything, or prime to learn.

But again,, if you believe that the afterlife lasts for ALL OF ETERNITY, then this little life here is such an insignificant little blink of an eye... why would a few dozen decades, one way or the other, really matter?

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2012, 05:26:01 PM »
I only just figured it out myself, Quesi.  A better way to look at it is as if someone you love was going to be stuck in metaphysical carbonite - they could still move around and do things in Heaven (or in Hell), but they would stay the same as they were from that moment on.  They'd never be able to grow to be more than they were at that moment, never be able to learn anything more than they knew at that moment.

I'd actually feel pretty sorry for them.  Being robbed of the opportunity to do anything new, even if they get to live forever, is rather sad to contemplate.
fortunately we don't have to experience that do we?'
Also, I am glad you figured it out.

Offline jetson

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2012, 05:27:21 PM »
I suspect that many people don't really think about it all that much.  As long as there is an after-life, what it actually is, becomes something to worry about later.  Eternity is impossible for us to fathom, so I think we write it off as inconsequential, or not that critical. 

Imagine having endless amounts of cash, I mean what would be the benef...wait, strike that last attempt at an analogy!

ha ha

Debir

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2012, 05:29:03 PM »
I have been reading through the comments while at work - so I hope that I haven't missed anything about what I am going to mention. Also, I haven't read through the whole site so it could be addressed elsewhere.

Why do some assume that children go to heaven? I have never read anything about this in a bible. Is there some verse to clear this up?

Offline jetson

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2012, 05:34:16 PM »
I have been reading through the comments while at work - so I hope that I haven't missed anything about what I am going to mention. Also, I haven't read through the whole site so it could be addressed elsewhere.

Why do some assume that children go to heaven? I have never read anything about this in a bible. Is there some verse to clear this up?

Welcome!  I'm sure there is a verse to clear up pretty much anything in the Bible!  Let me dig a bit!

Here you go:  http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 05:36:11 PM by jetson »

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2012, 05:42:08 PM »
I have been reading through the comments while at work - so I hope that I haven't missed anything about what I am going to mention. Also, I haven't read through the whole site so it could be addressed elsewhere.

Why do some assume that children go to heaven? I have never read anything about this in a bible. Is there some verse to clear this up?

Welcome Debir. 

Shin, who is a Christian, asserted this belief earlier in another thread.  Certainly, Christians have a wide range of beliefs, and I'm sure not all Christians believe that all children go to heaven.  The Westboro folks, for example, seem delighted that their god has shown judgment on these kids. 

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2012, 05:42:19 PM »
But again,, if you believe that the afterlife lasts for ALL OF ETERNITY, then this little life here is such an insignificant little blink of an eye... why would a few dozen decades, one way or the other, really matter?
Now that is a much better question to ask in my opinion.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2012, 05:57:17 PM »
I checked the page out ( http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html) - Thanks Jetson... I'm not sure what I think. I don't think they are going to hell. Then again I don't know if I believe in hell at all.

I thought of an example of a 'maybe' for kids going somewhere like heaven(or at least not going to hell). King David and the child he had with Bathsheba- He said I will go to him but he wont return to me... that's quoted from my memory and I havent read the bible in a long time. I should have looked it up, but I'm certain that's somewhat close. I doubt David intended to go to hell and he thought he would join the child somewhere. He could have just meant that he will join the child in the dirt though.

You would think the bible would be clear on these things, but its not.

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2012, 06:07:45 PM »
I have been reading through the comments while at work - so I hope that I haven't missed anything about what I am going to mention. Also, I haven't read through the whole site so it could be addressed elsewhere.

Why do some assume that children go to heaven? I have never read anything about this in a bible. Is there some verse to clear this up?

Welcome Debir. 

Shin, who is a Christian, asserted this belief earlier in another thread.  Certainly, Christians have a wide range of beliefs, and I'm sure not all Christians believe that all children go to heaven.  The Westboro folks, for example, seem delighted that their god has shown judgment on these kids.
how do you know SHIN is a Christian?

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Re: Reflections on dead 6 year olds and questions for Shin and other believers
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2012, 06:10:35 PM »
I checked the page out ( http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html) - Thanks Jetson... I'm not sure what I think. I don't think they are going to hell. Then again I don't know if I believe in hell at all.

I thought of an example of a 'maybe' for kids going somewhere like heaven(or at least not going to hell). King David and the child he had with Bathsheba- He said I will go to him but he wont return to me... that's quoted from my memory and I havent read the bible in a long time. I should have looked it up, but I'm certain that's somewhat close. I doubt David intended to go to hell and he thought he would join the child somewhere. He could have just meant that he will join the child in the dirt though.

You would think the bible would be clear on these things, but its not.
Darth Vader made it that way.