Author Topic: A Christian America?  (Read 1500 times)

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Offline kaziglu bey

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A Christian America?
« on: December 17, 2012, 08:27:29 PM »
It is very often asserted by many Christians that the United States is, without question, undoubtedly a Christian country, because that's the way the Founding Fathers intended it. This is, of course, as far from reality as is humanly possible, for obvious historical and Constitutional reasons, not to mention the Treaty of Tripoli. We all already know this, but that's not my primary point in this regard.

No, my main point is that the Christian belief system itself is entirely at odds with everything that is traditionally be considered an American value. The rugged individualist is Satan. I don't want to have to answer to anyone thanks, I will look after myself and you can look after yourself. This is a common attitude among the religious right, yet is entirely at odds with the general values of Christians, such as community and charity.

Then you have the idea that you must unquestioningly accept an absolute authority, a supreme overlord, who is beyond reproach or appeal, who makes no concessions, no exceptions, is the judge, jury and executioner, has no checks whatsoever on their power, can watch what you do and judge you for what you think (thought crime), cannot be held accountable to anyone, can punish or reward you at will, demands absolute obedience, absolute servitude, absolute devotion, absolute love, absolute fear, and abject servitude. This is the anti-thesis of the basis of the formation of the United States. This is a description of Big Brother. The very core of Christianity does against everything the United States and it's Founding Fathers hoped to leave behind. To say that the US is a Christian nation is to understand neither the United States nor Christianity. In God's kingdom, there is no consensus or will of the people taken into consideration. As Hitch always said, heaven is a celestial North Korea. The complete opposite of America.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Nick

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2012, 08:50:53 PM »
I have not heard that line before from Hitch, "Heaven is a celestial North Korea".  What a great line and so much truth in it.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2012, 08:59:11 PM »
I have not heard that line before from Hitch, "Heaven is a celestial North Korea".  What a great line and so much truth in it.

Here you go. As only Hitch could do.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Nick

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2012, 09:14:26 PM »
Thank you for that.  HItch was a master of the spoken word.  I miss him.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2012, 09:17:59 PM »
America was supposed to be the "new Israel" & up to a certain point it was. God's hand over that nation was clearly seen by the countless blessings it received from Him.

Up until a few years ago it remained the sole world super-power. Economically, scientifically, army wise, natural-resource wise, etc... At the time of the founding fathers, non-believers were scarcer than ivory-billed woodpeckers. 

Since then it has slowly but surely been declining as it further moved away from Yehovah.




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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2012, 02:25:16 PM »
SHIN

Where have you seen it written that America was supposed to be the new Israel.

Which blessing are you referring to? The need to decimate the native population, the killer tornados through the country's heartland, the earthquakes, the hurricanes or just back when god blessed us with really really cold winters?

The reason we aren't that great scientifically any more is because we have so many fundamentalists that our average IQ has dropped 50 points. We've used up most of our resources and our christian based nation believes in selfishness more than anything else.

Why do you think there were not many atheists at the time our nation was founded? Just guessing? You are aware than many of our founders were deists at best, don't you. You do know that Thomas Jefferson, a believer, was cutting up the bible taking out the parts he thought were crap, don't you. I doubt there were many catholics there.

Its hard to move away from something that doesn't exist. Just thought you should be told that.
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Offline Nick

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2012, 02:32:23 PM »
Good point.  If I remember right the Mormons found those gold plates and figured out that the lost tribe somehow made it to America.  And Jesus even came here before going up to the Big Guy in the sky.  It is as clear as mud if you study the word.  That is what makes America "exceptional".  Romney would have exposed us to this truth more if he had only been elected.  What fools we were to have missed that chance with this fine upstanding man.

Anyhow, yes we are special but that does not mean we can continue to piss off the Almighty.  Sooner or later there will be Hell to pay.

(side note:  once you start acting like a nut it seems to get easier).
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2012, 02:38:29 PM »
SHIN

Where have you seen it written that America was supposed to be the new Israel.
Uuhhmmm... pretty much everywhere?... Please tell me an american knows his country's history better than a european. (If u are an american that is...)

Which blessing are you referring to?
All kinds of blessings.

The need to decimate the native population, the killer tornados through the country's heartland, the earthquakes, the hurricanes or just back when god blessed us with really really cold winters?
That was to punish you for the racist period u guys had... U know, the black/indian thingy...

Its hard to move away from something that doesn't exist.
LOL sure... just keep telling yourself that :P
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline stuffin

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2012, 02:53:02 PM »
America was supposed to be the "new Israel" & up to a certain point it was. God's hand over that nation was clearly seen by the countless blessings it received from Him.

Up until a few years ago it remained the sole world super-power. Economically, scientifically, army wise, natural-resource wise, etc... At the time of the founding fathers, non-believers were scarcer than ivory-billed woodpeckers. 

Since then it has slowly but surely been declining as it further moved away from Yehovah.

That is a good thing.
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline Nick

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2012, 03:02:50 PM »
Right.  I'm sure none of that is a result of outsourcing jobs, etc. to other countries and destroying the middle class.  Our educational system has become a joke. But hey...we have God and guns...what else do you need?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2012, 03:15:22 PM »
SHIN

Where have you seen it written that America was supposed to be the new Israel.
Uuhhmmm... pretty much everywhere?... Please tell me an american knows his country's history better than a european. (If u are an american that is...)

Well, it is pretty much here say until you give me a link or something. I went to college and everything and nobody ever told me that this was supposed to be the new Israel. Please give me some non-religious references to show me where the secular world agrees with you.

Which blessing are you referring to?
All kinds of blessings.

Quote
The need to decimate the native population, the killer tornados through the country's heartland, the earthquakes, the hurricanes or just back when god blessed us with really really cold winters?
That was to punish you for the racist period u guys had... U know, the black/indian thingy...

Yea, when I deserve punishment, someone else dies in my place. Though I find that convenient, it is hard to attribute such injustice to a god if he, you know, loves us. Since he had insulated his believers to a small part of the planet and had not sent anyone to enlighten the Indians before we showed up, I'm guessing his letting us wipe them out was all part of his plot to love us all to death.

Its hard to move away from something that doesn't exist.
LOL sure... just keep telling yourself that :P
[/quote]

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Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2012, 03:42:35 PM »
Right.  I'm sure none of that is a result of outsourcing jobs, etc. to other countries and destroying the middle class.  Our educational system has become a joke. But hey...we have God and guns...what else do you need?
Well, no. You don't have God anymore. & guns will probably be banned with obama as president.

So, essentianlly, americans are left with nothing. :P
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2012, 04:12:22 PM »
America was supposed to be the "new Israel" & up to a certain point it was. God's hand over that nation was clearly seen by the countless blessings it received from Him.
This is just is not true. It is true that Puritans such as John Winthrope certainly made comparisons between their establishment of the Massachussetts Bay Colony and Israel. He also made reference to it being "as a city on a hill" (Matthew 5:14) and uses much Biblical imagery and metaphors between their colony and the Kingdom of Heaven. Is that really so surprising? These people were hardcore Bible pounding Puritans for goodness sake! Why WOULDN'T they view themselves like this?

But the thing is, the Puritans were not the Founding Fathers. The Founding Fathers, while many of them practised some type of Christianity, made it abundantly clear that they did not think that there should be any crossover between religion and the state. Thomas Paine was not by any definition a Christian. There are numerous cases where they criticized the role that religion has played in politics, and make it clear that they are avoiding making that exact same mistake again. They are trying to get away from the church/state/royal monarch system of England, and just simply have a state ruled by a consensus of the people (somewhat). As I pointed out earlier, the very idea of Christianity, submitting to an absolute authority, is the opposite of America, and clearly not what the Founding Fathers intended.

Quote
Up until a few years ago it remained the sole world super-power. Economically, scientifically, army wise, natural-resource wise, etc...
Oh we are still the world superpower. How many aircraft carriers do you have over there in Portugal? None? Pity. How many stealth bombers are in Portugal military hangers? None? So sad. Do you have a 411 terawatt laser? Do you have Francis Collins? Neil Tyson? No? Shame.
Quote
At the time of the founding fathers, non-believers were scarcer than ivory-billed woodpeckers. 's
Not really, it's just that they could not freely speak their mind without being ostracized or killed by such loving tender religious persons as yourself. Now that secular society has convinced religious people that it's not ok to burn other human beings alive for entertainment purposes, we have been able to move on to something like a civilized society.  Look at poor Thomas Paine, who wasn't even atheist, but a Deist who was hugely critical of religion and slavery, and was ostracized, again by such good hearted religious people as yourself, SHIN. Given your rabid level of fundamentalism in this day and age, I can imagine what you might have done to non believers in a time where you had free license to torment them anyway you want. And I bet that you would do it. You would be Thomas Moore, burning people like Tyndale and Hitten at the stake for translating the Bible into English.

There are those of us who would like to continue this progress and have been trying to do so, but end up having to deal with persons with primitive, delusional, and obsolete worldviews who want to take our society back to the late Bronze Age. No thank you. We don't want human sacrifice, we don't need salvation, we have real problems to solve, so lets not wasting our time trying to please an imaginary friend.
Quote
Since then it has slowly but surely been declining as it further moved away from Yehovah.
A decline away from Jehovah can only be a good thing. Consider the evidence. Countries such as Iceland, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, and Finland, which are well known for more progressive policies that the fanatical right dubs "socialism", and who all have a very high percentage of atheists in their population, and a very secular culture, have the lowest crime rates on earth, the least poverty, the least income disparity, less teen pregnancies, less unemployment, better healthcare, better education, better transportation, less pollution, stronger economies, less restrictions on vital advancing fields such as stem cell research and genetics, the most equality between the sexes, etc etc. The most progressive, civilized places on earth are the ones where people are the least religious. The most backwards, oppressive places to live are all run precisely by religion (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and.... Vatican City[1]!) Seems like religion just doesn't measure up to the standards of a secular society.
 1. Shin, I think you would at least agree on this.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2012, 05:19:37 PM »
Seems like religion just doesn't measure up to the standards of a secular society.
True. That is why chrisitanity is not a religion. It's a personal relationship with Mashiach.
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2012, 07:35:51 PM »
America was supposed to be the "new Israel" & up to a certain point it was. God's hand over that nation was clearly seen by the countless blessings it received from Him.

Up until a few years ago it remained the sole world super-power. Economically, scientifically, army wise, natural-resource wise, etc... At the time of the founding fathers, non-believers were scarcer than ivory-billed woodpeckers. 

Since then it has slowly but surely been declining as it further moved away from Yehovah.
Did not really work out for the Native population of North America...but then again anywhere the Christians went they left a pile of bodies in their wake

 And for the fact you say God punished the USA with storms and such for treatment of others......God likes believers to kill heathens so why would he punish for it.....any evidence?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 07:40:25 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Garja

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2012, 11:26:57 PM »
Right.  I'm sure none of that is a result of outsourcing jobs, etc. to other countries and destroying the middle class.  Our educational system has become a joke. But hey...we have God and guns...what else do you need?

Sadly true.  Had a parent-teacher conference a few weeks ago where the parent basically wanted me to give the questions to the test ahead of time.  Ummmm..... no.  Hell, I already gave them the extended response and the two short-answer questions and the lazy **** didn't study that either.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Aaron123

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2012, 10:59:24 AM »
True. That is why chrisitanity is not a religion. It's a personal relationship with Mashiach.

Oh please.  We've seen this retort a million times. 

Religion

noun 
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.


Christianity is very much a religion.  Trying to relabel it doesn't change that fact.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline jetson

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2012, 11:21:44 AM »
Poor guy. Little does he know that the hell of the churches doesn't exist. Spending all his life saying how bad that concept is when in fact it doesn't even exist. Sad... :P


Hitchens was a great human being.  Your faulting him for the myths of the Bible doesn't change anything.  Are you in denial that billions of believers are in fear of Hell? 

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2012, 11:41:24 AM »
Poor guy. Little does he know that the hell of the churches doesn't exist. Spending all his life saying how bad that concept is when in fact it doesn't even exist. Sad... :P


Hitchens was a great human being.
Was?? :?
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline jetson

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2012, 02:56:24 PM »
Poor guy. Little does he know that the hell of the churches doesn't exist. Spending all his life saying how bad that concept is when in fact it doesn't even exist. Sad... :P


Hitchens was a great human being.
Was?? :?

He died one year ago.  I was at his last public appearance in Houston.  He was a great man - despite his abrasive style.

Offline Bagheera

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2012, 03:14:00 PM »
America was supposed to be the "new Israel" & up to a certain point it was. God's hand over that nation was clearly seen by the countless blessings it received from Him.

Up until a few years ago it remained the sole world super-power. Economically, scientifically, army wise, natural-resource wise, etc... At the time of the founding fathers, non-believers were scarcer than ivory-billed woodpeckers. 

Since then it has slowly but surely been declining as it further moved away from Yehovah.

So, basically, every prosperous country is the 'new Israel'? The early days of the Roman Empire? The British Empire, back in the day? The highly secular and laid back Switzerland, now? My home, now? (It's pretty nice, I am comfortable and safe).  Is the US more blessed now than during the times of slavery and genocide, or less blessed? Was it more blessed during the Civil War, or after?

God's blessings are difficult to discern from the events of the natural world and human action. Perhaps that is all they are.

Offline Bagheera

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2012, 03:16:18 PM »
Poor guy. Little does he know that the hell of the churches doesn't exist. Spending all his life saying how bad that concept is when in fact it doesn't even exist. Sad... :P


Hitchens was a great human being.
Was?? :?

He died one year ago.  I was at his last public appearance in Houston.  He was a great man - despite his abrasive style.

Clearly God smote him for his arrogance, just like he gently gathered the children of Sandy Hook Elementary School to his loving bosom.

(Or is it the other way around?)

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2012, 03:28:44 PM »
Poor guy. Little does he know that the hell of the churches doesn't exist. Spending all his life saying how bad that concept is when in fact it doesn't even exist. Sad... :P


Hitchens was a great human being.
Was?? :?

He died one year ago.  I was at his last public appearance in Houston.  He was a great man - despite his abrasive style.
:P Didn't know... I don't doubt he was a great man. Anyone who can calmly accept that a god might burn sinners forever in a place called hell, is mentally deranged...

Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2012, 03:31:57 PM »
Well, no. You don't have God anymore. & guns will probably be banned with obama as president.

So, essentianlly, americans are left with nothing. :P
Obama can't ban guns; the Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms and no President can remove it.

This is still a truly great country, even with the problems we have.  It'll continue to be great as long as Americans are willing to put the effort in to make it one.  A belief in some god is unnecessary and largely counterproductive to that goal.

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: A Christian America?
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2012, 03:34:34 PM »
America was supposed to be the "new Israel" & up to a certain point it was. God's hand over that nation was clearly seen by the countless blessings it received from Him.

Up until a few years ago it remained the sole world super-power. Economically, scientifically, army wise, natural-resource wise, etc... At the time of the founding fathers, non-believers were scarcer than ivory-billed woodpeckers. 

Since then it has slowly but surely been declining as it further moved away from Yehovah.
God's blessings are difficult to discern from the events of the natural world and human action.
Granted.
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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