Author Topic: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.  (Read 3825 times)

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2012, 05:39:36 PM »
^ LOL. Is this a joke of some kind? In case u guys haven't seen, all the 7 countries listed on that article are of predominantly of muslim religion. In case you also didn't know, I am a christian. I don't worship a pagan god named allah.

So please, spare me...

Ummm.  Muslims are not pagans.  Hindus and Sikhs and Jainists are pagans.  Muslims, Christians and Jews are all monotheists, by definition. 

And you all worship the god of Abraham.  You all believe in Noah and the flood.  Christians and Muslims believe that a virgin named Mary gave birth to a baby named Jesus.  All three religions are very very similar.  And all three religions are very diverse, with adherents claiming to believe a wide range of things in the name of their one god. 

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2012, 05:47:22 PM »
^ LOL. Is this a joke of some kind? In case u guys haven't seen, all the 7 countries listed on that article are of predominantly of muslim religion. In case you also didn't know, I am a christian. I don't worship a pagan god named allah.

So please, spare me...

Ummm.  Muslims are not pagans.  Hindus and Sikhs and Jainists are pagans.  Muslims, Christians and Jews are all monotheists, by definition. 
Heathen : Heathen is from Old English hæðen "not Christian or Jewish".

Any God other than Yehovah is a pagan god.
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2012, 05:50:22 PM »
I checked it again for good measure, and failed to find a link with unbiased scientific data. Do explain to me in your words what I'm missing, because I fail to see the point.

Are you okay Morgan? Link lists like that have been known to cause blindness and insanity. Don't take them so seriously. When someone goes for quantity over quality, you don't really even need to check.

Thanks for trying though. Hope you didn't hurt your mouse fingers.  ;D
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Offline lomolo

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2012, 09:01:50 PM »
Heathen : Heathen is from Old English hæðen "not Christian or Jewish".

Which dictionary are you using?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heathen

Offline Ambivalent

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2012, 10:45:46 PM »
Are you part of the "WatchTower Society"? Because that only judging thing sounds a lot like something my Aunt (who is a Jehova Witness) would say.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2012, 05:04:46 AM »
Sorry Shin - you can try to duck and dodge and shift the goalposts all you like, but you still haven't been able to give me a considered answer to my question.

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. :-[ Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

And that's where the problem lies.  You were quite specific earlier on that:

(you think the afterlife is) a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. ......."Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

So you are positive that is doesn't last "for ever".....but you CAN'T say how long it does last?

How long do you think you could hold your hand on a hot stove, or in a fire (NB: DON'T TRY IT).  Unless you have a specific condition that deadens nerves, you'll manage maybe a couple seconds before the horrific pain makes you yank your hand away and run for the tap.  So while "for ever" may not be the case, it is still vitally important how long this burning actually goes on for.

Because if it lasts for any measurable time at all, then your lovely loving god is deliberately choosing a means of destruction that causes indescribable pain.

Just imagine, for a few minutes, that the "burning" doesn't last for ever.....but lasts for 24 hours.  Seriously, sit quiely and imagine it.  Then come back here and explain how your god is so loving.

The only response you've managed to my direct question so far is:

^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

...which is frankly pathetic.  Is that the best defence you can make for your god?  That he "only" tortures people for a few days rather than forever, so therefore he's actually a really nice guy?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2012, 05:07:10 AM »
Adam & Eve('s)...sinful nature was transmitted to us.

Facinating.  Where did their "sinful nature" come from?  I thought they were created in Yahweh's image?  Does that mean Yahweh has a sinful nature?  Or is he sinless, but decided to create them with a "sinful nature"?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline none

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2012, 05:10:48 AM »
Sorry Shin - you can try to duck and dodge and shift the goalposts all you like, but you still haven't been able to give me a considered answer to my question.

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. :-[ Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

And that's where the problem lies.  You were quite specific earlier on that:

(you think the afterlife is) a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. ......."Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

So you are positive that is doesn't last "for ever".....but you CAN'T say how long it does last?

How long do you think you could hold your hand on a hot stove, or in a fire (NB: DON'T TRY IT).  Unless you have a specific condition that deadens nerves, you'll manage maybe a couple seconds before the horrific pain makes you yank your hand away and run for the tap.  So while "for ever" may not be the case, it is still vitally important how long this burning actually goes on for.

Because if it lasts for any measurable time at all, then your lovely loving god is deliberately choosing a means of destruction that causes indescribable pain.

Just imagine, for a few minutes, that the "burning" doesn't last for ever.....but lasts for 24 hours.  Seriously, sit quiely and imagine it.  Then come back here and explain how your god is so loving.

The only response you've managed to my direct question so far is:

^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

...which is frankly pathetic.  Is that the best defence you can make for your god?  That he "only" tortures people for a few days rather than forever, so therefore he's actually a really nice guy?
come on let him think about it.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2012, 07:43:28 AM »
..
What is the state of the dead?

Answer : Those who have died are currently sleeping in the grave,..

.. The unrepentant .. will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist.

..

There isn't that much difference from our atheistic point of view, except that we don't believe in the silliness of the dead sleeping. No, the dead are really dead. And since I have no desire whatsoever to worship some megalomaniac for all eternity, I am just fine with not existing when I'm already dead, it's what a thinking man would prefer.
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Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2012, 08:30:18 AM »
Sorry Shin - you can try to duck and dodge and shift the goalposts all you like, but you still haven't been able to give me a considered answer to my question.

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. :-[ Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

And that's where the problem lies.  You were quite specific earlier on that:

(you think the afterlife is) a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. ......."Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

So you are positive that is doesn't last "for ever".....but you CAN'T say how long it does last?

How long do you think you could hold your hand on a hot stove, or in a fire (NB: DON'T TRY IT).  Unless you have a specific condition that deadens nerves, you'll manage maybe a couple seconds before the horrific pain makes you yank your hand away and run for the tap.  So while "for ever" may not be the case, it is still vitally important how long this burning actually goes on for.

Because if it lasts for any measurable time at all, then your lovely loving god is deliberately choosing a means of destruction that causes indescribable pain.

Just imagine, for a few minutes, that the "burning" doesn't last for ever.....but lasts for 24 hours.  Seriously, sit quiely and imagine it.  Then come back here and explain how your god is so loving.

The only response you've managed to my direct question so far is:

^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

...which is frankly pathetic.  Is that the best defence you can make for your god?  That he "only" tortures people for a few days rather than forever, so therefore he's actually a really nice guy?
The burning will last till you body gets totally consumed. If it last 20 seconds, good for you. If it lasts 2 min, what do you want me to say? It is what it is...

Who can question The Lord God Almighty anyway?
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2012, 08:31:35 AM »
Adam & Eve('s)...sinful nature was transmitted to us.

Facinating.  Where did their "sinful nature" come from?  I thought they were created in Yahweh's image?  Does that mean Yahweh has a sinful nature?  Or is he sinless, but decided to create them with a "sinful nature"?
Their sinful nature came when they sinned. Had they resisted the temptation of the devil & not sinned, they wouldn't have had a sinful nature.
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2012, 08:34:53 AM »
..
What is the state of the dead?

Answer : Those who have died are currently sleeping in the grave,..

.. The unrepentant .. will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist.

..

There isn't that much difference from our atheistic point of view
Actually, it's completely identic. The skeptics had it right since the beginning.

except that we don't believe in the silliness of the dead sleeping.
Yes you do, bcz it's the same feeling. The feeling of nothingness. Total darkness. No thoughts, no emotions, no consciousness. The Lord is good.

Perhaps the only notable difference from sleeping is that there will be no dreams. Death. The 2nd death. The Lord is good & merciful.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 08:37:19 AM by SHIN KAIRI »
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline Morgan

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2012, 08:42:20 AM »
I checked it again for good measure, and failed to find a link with unbiased scientific data. Do explain to me in your words what I'm missing, because I fail to see the point.

Are you okay Morgan? Link lists like that have been known to cause blindness and insanity. Don't take them so seriously. When someone goes for quantity over quality, you don't really even need to check.

Thanks for trying though. Hope you didn't hurt your mouse fingers.  ;D

Don't worry about me, living in the Theocratic Republic of Romania has made me jaded to that kind of stuff.  ;D

@SK:
I'm still waiting for that proof, y'know. Without it everything you say sounds like boring fanfic everyone takes too seriously  :-\ There are no awesome crossovers, nobody's being badass by fighting alligators with flaming radioactive chainsaws, and no hot guys and/or girls are having sex.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2012, 09:10:18 AM »
Heathen : Heathen is from Old English hæðen "not Christian or Jewish".

Which dictionary are you using?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heathen

For that matter, he didn't even use the word "heathen" in the quote in question.  He used "pagan".
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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2012, 09:55:34 AM »
Who can question The Lord God Almighty anyway?
Why shouldn't we question?  Allowing someone to do wrong simply because they're powerful makes you complicit in their deeds.

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2012, 10:22:22 AM »
Who can question The Lord God Almighty anyway?
Why shouldn't we question?  Allowing someone to do wrong simply because they're powerful makes you complicit in their deeds.
He's not just someone...
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline plethora

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2012, 12:00:51 PM »
Who can question The Lord God Almighty anyway?
Why shouldn't we question?  Allowing someone to do wrong simply because they're powerful makes you complicit in their deeds.
He's not just someone...

He's no one. He's a fictional character. A figment of your imagination.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline Bagheera

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #75 on: December 20, 2012, 04:41:32 PM »
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!

This is the argument that gets me annoyed, from the perspective of "it's batshit insane"

Only after disobeying God did we become assholes. So why did God give us any instructions at all to disobey? Why create the creature he supposedly loves, then instill the only condition that could screw it up for us of his own volition when the simple act of NOT giving commandments would result in us merely doing as we will, not disobeying god, and thus not being all granted eternal bliss?

Offline Bagheera

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #76 on: December 20, 2012, 04:56:18 PM »
except that we don't believe in the silliness of the dead sleeping.
Yes you do, bcz it's the same feeling. The feeling of nothingness. Total darkness. No thoughts, no emotions, no consciousness. The Lord is good.

Perhaps the only notable difference from sleeping is that there will be no dreams. Death. The 2nd death. The Lord is good & merciful.

Now. . . extend the "sleep of the dead" to everyone, whether or not they believe in god or Thor or Cthulu, and you have what is likely a more accurate model for the state of consciousness after you die; it doesn't exist. Why insert something beyond that, except for wishful thinking? "I want it to be so" is a good incentive for making things happen, but insufficient evidence that it actually happens or even can happen. The Lord is good and merciful; we have life, and death.

Why do  greedy religious people keep pestering him for immortal life when he already gave them mortal life? Spoiled brats :)

(Note: Sleeping is NOT the same as dead? If you're sleeping, you're still alive, even though you may not be fully aware of your surroundings. The inputs still work, but the processor power has been dialled back and is mostly idle or involved in other functions we don't fully understand.  A strong enough stimulus will still wake you. Try that with a dead person.)

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2012, 04:59:53 PM »
Who can question The Lord God Almighty anyway?
Why shouldn't we question?  Allowing someone to do wrong simply because they're powerful makes you complicit in their deeds.
He's not just someone...

He's no one. He's a fictional character. A figment of your imagination.
A figment of billions of people's imaginations around the world? :P

Sure...
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline Bagheera

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #78 on: December 20, 2012, 05:02:19 PM »
Adam & Eve('s)...sinful nature was transmitted to us.

Facinating.  Where did their "sinful nature" come from?  I thought they were created in Yahweh's image?  Does that mean Yahweh has a sinful nature?  Or is he sinless, but decided to create them with a "sinful nature"?
Their sinful nature came when they sinned. Had they resisted the temptation of the devil & not sinned, they wouldn't have had a sinful nature.

So god created them with the capacity to sin, and then gave them the opportunity,  knowing that they would sin, without the ability to determine that sin was 'sinful'.

Does that sum it up?

And doesn't reading that give you some insight into why some people think that if (bible)God exists, he's at best a huge dick that's indifferent to humanity's welfare, and probably evil? Replace the word God with Odin or Zeus or Jupiter or a made up name if that helps.

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2012, 05:08:09 PM »
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!

So why did God give us any instructions at all to disobey? Why create the creature he supposedly loves, then instill the only condition that could screw it up for us of his own volition when the simple act of NOT giving commandments would result in us merely doing as we will
Bcz he doesn't want us to do our will, but to learn His will. Why? Bcz His will is infinitely better than ours. He therefore has to teach us. & there can be no teaching without us seeing the result of going against His will(sin).

His will is righteousness, love, mercy, etc... This is still the main battle fought today. Our will or His will. It has never been about anything else...

Joshua 24:15 If it seems bad to you to serve ADONAI, then choose today whom you are going to serve! Will it be the gods your ancestors served beyond the River? or the gods of the Emori, in whose land you are living? As for me and my household, we will serve ADONAI!"

Who will ye all serve? Yehovah or yourselves? Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline Bagheera

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #80 on: December 20, 2012, 05:11:13 PM »
He's no one. He's a fictional character. A figment of your imagination.
A figment of billions of people's imaginations around the world? :P

Sure...

Billions of people don't know I exist. Does that mean I don't?

I at least am capable of providing unequivocal evidence that I do exist, to the point of showing up on your doorstep with my ID. (bible)God seems to be consistently incapable of doing so, and the evidence for an afterlife is only slightly less absent. (Arguments for (bible)God tend to promise material results that fail to materialize, which actually provides negative evidence of His existence, whereby arguments for an afterlife tend to reside in the 'only when you're dead will you know' category, which renders them unprovable to anyone who lives.

People can imagine a lot of stuff.  If they don't stand up under scrutiny, its quite possible that thousands, millions or billions of people can be demonstrably wrong.

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2012, 05:12:03 PM »
Damn you nested quotes....  >:(

A figment of billions of people's imaginations around the world? :P

Sure...

Just because this supernatural thing is believed by billions of people around the world doesn't mean this thing isn't imaginary.

Sure, one can bring up Allah, and you agreeing he's not real. Right? It only takes one person to convince one person that something is supposedly real, when it isn't, then that belief that it is real spreads to hundreds, thousands, millions, and billions.

That's really not the best argument, Shin. How does he being believed by billions to be real validate its existence?
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Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2012, 05:12:55 PM »
Adam & Eve('s)...sinful nature was transmitted to us.

Facinating.  Where did their "sinful nature" come from?  I thought they were created in Yahweh's image?  Does that mean Yahweh has a sinful nature?  Or is he sinless, but decided to create them with a "sinful nature"?
Their sinful nature came when they sinned. Had they resisted the temptation of the devil & not sinned, they wouldn't have had a sinful nature.

So god created them with the capacity to sin
Sin is disobeying God. Whatever the order might be. So yes He created us with the ability to deny Him & disobey Him. Makes total sense. In order for there to be true love, one must choose & not be forced to love. If this doesn't make sense to you, I suggest you jump off the nearest bridge you can find... :P

Does that sum it up?
Yes. Problem?
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2012, 05:16:29 PM »
So why did God give us any instructions at all to disobey? Why create the creature he supposedly loves, then instill the only condition that could screw it up for us of his own volition when the simple act of NOT giving commandments would result in us merely doing as we will
Bcz he doesn't want us to do our will, but to learn His will. Why? Bcz His will is infinitely better than ours. He therefore has to teach us. & there can be no teaching without us seeing the result of going against His will(sin).

His will is righteousness, love, mercy, etc... This is still the main battle fought today. Our will or His will. It has never been about anything else...

Joshua 24:15 If it seems bad to you to serve ADONAI, then choose today whom you are going to serve! Will it be the gods your ancestors served beyond the River? or the gods of the Emori, in whose land you are living? As for me and my household, we will serve ADONAI!"

Who will ye all serve? Yehovah or yourselves? Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.

Then He can make His will clear. Unless His will is "orchestrate a series of circumstances that result in making My existence and will of dubious to people who use the brains I provided for them". In which case. . . it's still not clear.

In which case, I win, because I am following God's will. Why do I need you to lead me astray?

Offline Bagheera

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2012, 05:21:10 PM »
Sin is disobeying God. Whatever the order might be. So yes He created us with the ability to deny Him & disobey Him. Makes total sense. In order for there to be true love, one must choose & not be forced to love. If this doesn't make sense to you, I suggest you jump off the nearest bridge you can find... :P

Does that sum it up?
Yes. Problem?

It makes sense. Give creatures the ability to do something without including the capacity to understand what they're doing, incite them to do it knowing that they will, then punish them for doing it.

I am so glad all evidence points to the likelihood of (bible)God being imaginary, because He sounds kind of psychotic.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2012, 05:26:01 PM »
Give creatures the ability to do something without including the capacity to understand what they're doing, incite them to do it knowing that they will, then punish them for doing it.

Liked.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2012, 10:44:21 PM »
He's not just someone...

He's no one. He's a fictional character. A figment of your imagination.
A figment of billions of people's imaginations around the world? :P

Sure...

Yes and he is a different god for every single one.  The god of SPAG.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !