Author Topic: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.  (Read 4518 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2012, 09:34:38 AM »
^ What 7 countries are u talking about?

Thx

http://global.christianpost.com/news/report-identifies-seven-countries-where-atheism-is-punishable-by-death-86413/


But getting back to the point:

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO FOOD FOR THOUGHT IN WHY WE CORRECT THE ERRORS OF THEISTS.

I have 3 relatives who end most conversations in garbage about Noah, conspiracy theories and alternative medicines. I know one other person who is expecting the world to change consciousness in 2 days. I know someone else who's life was cocked up by an astrologer.

SOMETIMES IT'S REFRESHING TO BE AROUND PEOPLE WHO'S HEADS ARE NOT TOTALLY FULL OF SHIT.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2012, 09:51:53 AM »
^ LOL. Is this a joke of some kind? In case u guys haven't seen, all the 7 countries listed on that article are of predominantly of muslim religion. In case you also didn't know, I am a christian. I don't worship a pagan god named allah.

So please, spare me...   
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2012, 11:02:50 AM »
No you worship a mish-mash of gods of other times  and stories of those other gods.....the only thing that is changed is the name of said god. All stories have been stolen from one religion or another as Christianity slaughtered surrounding tribes and assimilated their populations.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2012, 11:41:33 AM »
I know that many believers and atheists alike have a picture of what the afterlife and hell look like - a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. Coming to the conclusion that hell is NOT a place of eternal suffering and torment, made me even more comfortable with the God that I serve. 

No, you don't know that. Yes, I have heard that view, but I have been given other views of hell, such as the one you are trying to redefine here. Making stuff up isn't new to your religion, so please accept that we have heard many views, and that generalizations such as the one above are no more accurate that anything else you believe.

Of course thinking that hell has recliners and great cable access for all makes you feel better. Of course knowing that all meals there are catered by 5 star restaurants and that Amazon.com ships there free is comforting. But keep in mind that you are making the good hell up just as much as the bad hell is made up. That's the beauty of religion. It is generic, but you get to make it specific to your needs.

Go ahead. Enjoy. Just don't assume you know what is going on in our heads too.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2012, 12:09:59 PM »
^ What 7 countries are u talking about?

Good try at trying to Red Herring your own thread.  I'll repeat the main point of my post:

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. :-[ Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

And that's where the problem lies.  You were quite specific earlier on that:

(you think the afterlife is) a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. ......."Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

So you are positive that is doesn't last "for ever".....but you CAN'T say how long it does last?

How long do you think you could hold your hand on a hot stove, or in a fire (NB: DON'T TRY IT).  Unless you have a specific condition that deadens nerves, you'll manage maybe a couple seconds before the horrific pain makes you yank your hand away and run for the tap.  So while "for ever" may not be the case, it is still vitally important how long this burning actually goes on for.

Because if it lasts for any measurable time at all, then your lovely loving god is deliberately choosing a means of destruction that causes indescribable pain.

Just imagine, for a few minutes, that the "burning" doesn't last for ever.....but lasts for 24 hours.  Seriously, sit quiely and imagine it.  Then come back here and explain how your god is so loving.

I can understand entirely why you don't want to try to answer it.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2012, 02:03:50 PM »
^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

There's your answer.
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Offline Morgan

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2012, 02:18:11 PM »
First of all: holy shit up in the sky, you're 3 years older than me, yet type like a middle schooler.

Second: I've looked over this thread and couldn't find any proof that your mystical post-mortem alternate dimensions are real. I know you posted some links, but if your argument really is that compelling and my immortal soul is at risk, why can't you take a few minutes to explain things?

Oh, and about this immortal soul business...what if I get bored of living forever? I mean, 100 years is a lot. 1000 is even more. Not even 10^1000 years matter in the face of infinity and well...all I'm saying is that there are only so many World of Warcraft raids you can run before you get bored.

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2012, 02:41:09 PM »
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

Nietzsche : "Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

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Offline plethora

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2012, 07:12:21 PM »
Well, it's certainly better than what almost all the denominations want you to believe i.e. that you will be tortured forever in a mystical place, while the devil laughs at you & while your saved family members look down from Heaven & enjoy the show... Which do you prefer? Heck, if I'm being bashed for sharing good news what would it be if I shared bad news... :P Story of my life... :P

It's not about what I prefer. It's about reality and what's actually true and demonstrable. I don't care if some other denomination has a worse concept of hell. Your concept of hell and its purpose is despicable too.

Quote from: SHIN KAIRI
Quote from: plethora
What?? I don't need millions of innocent children to die each year to know right from wrong!
Well, apparently you do, bcz you have yet to be saved :P

The fact that you can put a stupid smiley face after I'm talking about millions upon millions of dead innocent children is so vile I can't even describe it. You disgust me.

Quote
If you care so much about the dying children around the world, let me ask u this : what have u done recently to prevent child death?

& no, enjoying yourself everyday doesn't count...



Well aren't you smug? How dare you assume that I am not doing anything to prevent child death? I have been giving 10% of all my earnings to various charities for the past 5 years. Secular charities, of course. One of those charities is aimed at getting food to children in African nations. I help organize charity events at the IT company I work for ... in fact the last one was collecting non-perishable foods to ship to Africa.

I also happen to play guitar player in a moderately successful band ... and we have played many charitable events. Recently, we raised £3400 GBP for a mental health charity. The event was called "Music for Mental Health".

How dare you tell me I don't know good from evil? How dare you use those stupid smileys, trivializing the death and suffering of millions.

I am done with this conversation. You're not worth it. You are pathetic.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2012, 07:28:17 PM »
Well, it's certainly better than what almost all the denominations want you to believe i.e. that you will be tortured forever in a mystical place, while the devil laughs at you & while your saved family members look down from Heaven & enjoy the show... Which do you prefer? Heck, if I'm being bashed for sharing good news what would it be if I shared bad news... :P Story of my life... :P

It's not about what I prefer. It's about reality and what's actually true and demonstrable. I don't care if some other denomination has a worse concept of hell. Your concept of hell and its purpose is despicable too.
Not at all.
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline none

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2012, 07:29:52 PM »
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
telling somebody they are going to die is abusive.
hell: eternal torment
my ass...
fuck, this internet gets better everyday.
I am turning up the volume...
enjoy all.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2012, 01:54:51 AM »
It's not about what I prefer. It's about reality and what's actually true and demonstrable. I don't care if some other denomination has a worse concept of hell. Your concept of hell and its purpose is despicable too.
Not at all.
Anything designed to terrify people into blind, unthinking obedience - which describes the hell mythos to a T - is by definition despicable.  That is the sole reason stories and depictions of hell exist, to provide the stick to heaven's carrot.

Doesn't matter what particular caveats you've come up with to distinguish your own conception of hell from all the other varied conceptions of hell that other people have come up with through the ages, it's still for that basic reason.  To terrify people into obedience to the dictates of whichever god they happen to believe in.  Basically, "do as I say you should, or burn in hell forevermore".

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2012, 05:11:20 AM »
^ What concept of hell? There is no hell. It's the grave. DEATH. Get it?!

Now if you don't think death is much better than eternal torture in an imaginary place, please don't talk to me again :P
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2012, 07:40:27 AM »
^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

There's your answer.

Oh, well that makes it all perfectly acceptable then.  So if I rape someone, but in my defence point out that "at least I didn't kill them", I should be let off - is that your point?

I'd thought that just maybe you were prepared to actually put a little thought into the discussion, but from this 1st-grade answer it seems not.  I'm not sure if that's because you just can't be bothered, or because the magnitude of the question I was asking you to contemplate was just too much for you. 

Like I said, I understand completely why you don't want to think about it.  We see a lot of that attitude from believers - it shares a lot of characteristics with people in abusive relationships, who stress that despite the number of beatings they get from the guy, he is a real nice guy, honest, because sometimes he can be really nice and buys them flowers.

That's really the only answer you have?  That because your god only tortures people for a couple days, we should love him because he COULD have tortured us for a lot longer if he'd wanted to?

Explain again this "god of love" business?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2012, 08:30:06 AM »
^ Well, it sure is better than eternal torture :P

There's your answer.

So if I rape someone, but in my defence point out that "at least I didn't kill them", I should be let off - is that your point?
Not at all.

Explain again this "god of love" business?
Do you know of any other god story that says that god personally came down from Heaven to die for us, so we could have life?
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2012, 11:15:01 AM »
Do you know of any other god story that says that god personally came down from Heaven to die for us, so we could have life?
[/quote]

SHIN, first of all, you do realize that other believers in your same god do say that hell is a hot and fiery place and we bad people get to spend eternity there, right. So your casual dismissal of that as a possible fate does not make a higher quality hell more likely. It only provides yet another alternative offered by insider interpretations of the bible.

But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go. No other gods condemned us via our own naïve and uneducated actions. No other gods assumed that one casual mention about one specific tree would determine the fate of all mankind. No other gods have been so unforgiving nor so relentless in pursuing our faults. No other gods are so big into tough love.

No other gods have needed a self-sacrifice because no other gods built it into their story. When, in the story, JC shows up, his death by horrible means is absolutely required or you guys don't have a tale/lesson/myth worth the paper it is scribed on. You need the exciting (something other religions have too) and you need the harmed god (which other religions have) and you need the arrest and the betrayal and the various versions of the resurrection to happen, or christianity has nothing. Or in your case, catholicism has nothing.

It is a story. It sounds great to many people because it has been finely honed over the centuries. It sounds great because all obvious flaws were erased long ago. It sounds great because religious scholars, already sucked into the story, have spent almost 20 centuries via apologetics and other efforts to confirm its truth. But it remains a story. And that you are impressed with it means only that yourself and others believe it. That doesn't mean that it is true.

That your version doesn't match other versions of the story is consistent with untruths, not truths. That literally tens of thousands of versions of christianity exist does not make for a good argument FOR the bible. That I personally have been told by various local christians that my fate as a non-christian is hell and brimstone, or hell without the brimstone, or not hell at all, means that folks are a bit confused. Of course, you as a catholic, so happy that you are following the original myth (with recent clarifications/corrections/adjustments as required by political and social pressures) only means that you can walk around proudly saying that your religion has the longest history amongst them. Others, not catholic, walk around extremely happy that the founders of their version figured out the truth and broke away from the mess that was/is the catholic church.

Now I realize you will dismiss this with, at most, one partial sentence. If that. You will scoff and laugh and shake your head and say something funny in Portuguese and then whip out a wise-ass response in english and be done with what I have written. So if your goal is to help me confirm all my prejudices against religion in general and catholicism in general, please do that. See if you can keep your response down to one word that will amaze us all with its clarity and wisdom. Or one word that will insult every cell in my body. Or one word that will redefine sarcasm from this moment on in history.

Hey, even a video. Yea, that's it. Post a video. YouTube, that shining example of human triumph and endeavor and truth has so many completely accurate resources that you could go there and find something to counter me, I'm sure. Do that. Enlightenment at 720p was probably mentioned in the bible, so do it.

Or actually say something. That would throw the rest of us off but I, for one, am willing to risk it.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2012, 11:22:18 AM »
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline jetson

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2012, 11:28:16 AM »
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!

Oh, we get it, for sure.  An ancient tale of ignorance now has a stranglehold on modern humans.  As the story goes, a woman ate the fruit and we are all doomed.  Until JC comes along, and then we're all saved...unless we choose not to accept JC, then we're doomed again.  Lovely story...

"God, the supreme asshole of the universe, if you are worthy of my attention, show yourself,  you fucking coward."
"Dear Santa, you are one fat mofo, I hope you fall off of your sleigh and die."
"Voldemort, may I call you that?  Eat my shorts."

Fiction, it works, bitches.


Offline none

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2012, 11:33:10 AM »
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!
So Eden was temporary and Heaven is eternal because we became assholes.
Where did Eden go?

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2012, 11:38:39 AM »
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!

Oh, we get it, for sure.  An ancient tale of ignorance now has a stranglehold on modern humans.  As the story goes, a woman ate the fruit and we are all doomed.  Until JC comes along, and then we're all saved...unless we choose not to accept JC, then we're doomed again.  Lovely story...
No. YOU sinned!

YOU are responsible for your own sin!

Adam & Eve are our parents, their sin is not our sin. But their sinful nature was transmitted to us. Why? Because we were born from them. You willfully sinned(like all of us) for the first time in your life at a certain age. Only God knows. At that exact moment in time, u were no longer blameless before The Lord(The Law). So, u were from then on, in need of a Savior.

GET IT?!
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

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Offline jetson

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2012, 11:51:51 AM »
No SHIN, I don't "GET IT" at all.  I don't sin, I make mistakes on occasion because I am only human.  Sin is a religious idea, and thus it means absolutely nothing to me.  Even if the story were accurate, it does not follow at all that all humans are sinners because of one mistake.  If you accept that premise, you're the one who has to live with it.  If that makes you feel better about how you interact with the world, go for it.

Adam and Eve are not my parents.  My parents are from New York!  And I actually believe that the natural evolution of life is a better explanation of my existence that some god making a man from dirt, and then a woman from the man's rib.  That is one of those EPIC LOL stories to me.


Offline Morgan

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2012, 12:05:56 PM »
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
I say it's immortal, and admit to having no proof. Until you show me some, your claim is as true as mine.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2012, 12:11:59 PM »
But their sinful nature was transmitted to us. Why? Because we were born from them.

That does not explain why.  It just says that it happened. 

They sinned, but where did they get their sinful nature from?  They were not born from anyone (allegedly). So this ephemeral thing - sinful nature - is transmitted in ways you do not seem to actually understand or you are unable to communicate.


GET IT?!

Stop doing that.  You are neither the first xian we have ever talked to nor are you the smartest.  and almost all of us were xians at some point.  So your stupid commentary is rather insulting.  Quit being such an asshole.

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2012, 01:12:29 PM »
^ What concept of hell? There is no hell. It's the grave. DEATH. Get it?!

Now if you don't think death is much better than eternal torture in an imaginary place, please don't talk to me again :P
I'll admit that I missed the original point of your thread.  However, my statement still has relevance - anything that's designed to terrify people into obedience is despicable.  You're basically saying that there is no hell or eternal torment, the wicked just get thrown into a lake of fire and are obliterated.  However, you don't understand that neither is 'good'.

You're still threatening people with a truly awful fate if they don't do what you say they should do.  It's irrelevant whether murder or torture is 'better' - to threaten nonbelievers with either is a despicable act.  And that's what you're doing in this thread, in order to terrify people into obeying your dictate of what they should do.

Offline none

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2012, 01:18:11 PM »
But as for the part I quoted:  No other gods came down and died for us because no other gods determined that we were assholes from the get go.
Incorrect. We were blessed from the get go. Only after disobeying GOD did we become assholes. We could have followed His commandment, but we didn't. It's merely an observation. The option of not sinning was on the table, but we sinned. Just like when you flip a coin it can either land on heads or tails. We landed on the wrong side if I may say. :P

Get it?!
So Eden was temporary and Heaven is eternal because we became assholes.
Where did Eden go?
I guess the same place where "believers" answer inquiries...  :'(

Offline SHIN KAIRI

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2012, 02:48:39 PM »
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
I say it's immortal, and admit to having no proof. Until you show me some, your claim is as true as mine.
Didn't you see the OP? :P
Presuppositionalism wins everytime

Nietzsche : "Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

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This will save ur life : https://www.facebook.com/notes/nuno-os%C3%B3rio/pure-truth/74076103182

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2012, 03:38:43 PM »
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
I say it's immortal, and admit to having no proof. Until you show me some, your claim is as true as mine.
Didn't you see the OP? :P

We've seen the OP. It is a land of ten trillion links. Anyone who has spent more than six months on this site has heard just about everything your links claim, then some. You keep asking us if we get it, but you don't acknowledge that you get our lack of belief. I'm not insisting that you agree with it, but you sort of have to understand where we're coming from before you can take us anywhere else.

We know the bible story. We know the Adam and Eve thing. We know the claims. Most of us also have, in our own opinions, have reason to assume it is all a fable.

As an atheist, I am not the least bit concerned about my death the end of my existence. That doesn't mean I am in a hurry or looking forward to it, but I accept that I get x number of years to live and then poof, I am gone. Sure, I would love to continue to exist. I have no reason to think that I do. Wishing and reality are seldom the same thing.

If you can't understand that the hell thing only works on those that fear eternity, and not those who know it doesn't exist, then each of us is talking to a wall.

We are just as sure as you are. Probably more so since we're not hanging around theist sites hoping to earn props from a god. At least one of us is very very wrong. I don't expect you to guess that you are the one in error, but don't for a second assume that your version of right is so right that there can be no other possible reality. Because we atheists are saying there is and we feel equally as strong about our position.

One that we can explain ourselves. Without linking the crap out our posts.

GET IT?
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline none

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2012, 03:46:53 PM »
SHIN KAIRI,
make no mistake, I get the OP.
do you get the OP?
its ten trillion links and growing, behind every link is Jesus... all you have to do is look...

Offline Morgan

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Re: Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2012, 04:26:49 PM »
^ The soul is not immortal. You will die my friend. & so will your soul if you don't accept Yeshua.
I say it's immortal, and admit to having no proof. Until you show me some, your claim is as true as mine.
Didn't you see the OP? :P
I checked it again for good measure, and failed to find a link with unbiased scientific data. Do explain to me in your words what I'm missing, because I fail to see the point.