Hell? A place of eternal torture forever? NO.

[SHIN KAIRI]

I hope this can contribute to a better image of my GOD in your minds. When I learned this truth, was the moment I was truly proud of the GOD I was serving. A God of Mercy!

I know that many believers and atheists alike have a picture of what the afterlife and hell look like - a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. Coming to the conclusion that hell is NOT a place of eternal suffering and torment, made me even more comfortable with the God that I serve. 

What is the state of the dead?

Answer : Those who have died are currently sleeping in the grave, awaiting resurrection. This includes the wicked and upright, believers and unbelievers. Only babies and innocent children need not sleep in death, nor take part in the resurrection at the Last Day.

What is the fate of the wicked?

Answer : The unrepentant wicked, who reject the forgiveness and lordship of YahuShua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ), are cast into the Lake of Fire, & will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist.

For undeniable/exhaustive proof on this issue, please refer to my signature link & scroll down till u see : "Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

Away with catholics! Away with the orthodox! Away with the false traditions of men! Away with all this PAGANISM! YHWH is truly deserving of worship! Glory to JESUS in the highest!

Blessings

[Aaron123]

That's nice.

Evidence?

[SHIN KAIRI]

That's nice.

Evidence?

Look for it yourself, or check the link. Your choice...

[Nick]

Hell is imaginary.

[none]

no NIck, I think this is one of the few times we will disagree..
hell is directly behind that link.
I know I went there.

[SHIN KAIRI]

Hell is imaginary.

Props to u!

[SHIN KAIRI]

no NIck, I think this is one of the few times we will disagree..
hell is directly behind that link.
I know I went there.

Nice one. Haha. Oh man, I wish u were a believer, we could have had so much fun together none.

[none]

no NIck, I think this is one of the few times we will disagree..
hell is directly behind that link.
I know I went there.

Nice one. Haha. Oh man, I wish u were a believer, we could have had so much fun together none.

not only is it not imaginary its denizen has come here.....

[Ambassador Pony]

Look for it yourself, or check the link. Your choice...

No. Not going to cut it. Support the arguments you make. Here. Be succinct and use your own words. You may support your claims by linking to relevant, primary source material.

Moreover, you might want to make sure any links you provide are to source material the person with whom you are arguing sees as valid. For example, many of the links on your facebook page are to bible quotes, and idiotic and crazy ramblings only uneduacted, mentally retarded, and crazy people would be convinced by.

The red indicates I am speaking as an administrator. It is not a suggestion. By the looks of things, and your lack of embarassment over the carnival show you linked to, I don't forsee you'll understand much of what happens around you here. But, best of luck, all the same. And, welcome.

[Nick]

Hell is imaginary.

Props to u!

By the way...what is wrong with Catholics that you kind of mentioned above?

[SHIN KAIRI]

Look for it yourself, or check the link. Your choice...

No. Not going to cut it. Support the arguments you make. Here. Be succinct and use your own words. You may support your claims by linking to relevant, primary source material.

Moreover, you might want to make sure any links you provide are to source material the person with whom you are arguing sees as valid. For example, many of the links on your facebook page are to bible quotes, and idiotic and crazy ramblings only uneduacted, mentally retarded, and crazy people would be convinced by.

The red indicates I am speaking as an administrator. It is not a suggestion. By the looks of things, and your lack of embarassment over the carnival show you linked to, I don't forsee you'll understand much of what happens around you here. But, best of luck, all the same. And, welcome.

Uuuhhhmmm... thx... I guess?

[SHIN KAIRI]

Hell is imaginary.

Props to u!

By the way...what is wrong with Catholics that you kind of mentioned above?

LOL Are u a catholic?

[Nick]

Was raised Catholic and went to school1st thru 12th grades in a Catholic school.  NOw I have clear rational thought as my guide.

I take it you don't much care for the Catholic line.

[SHIN KAIRI]

No but are you a catholic now? Idc about your upbringing. I too was raised catholic. What are you now? was the question...

[Add Homonym]

Malcom Muggeridge : "I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it's been applied, will be one of the great jokes in the history books in the future. Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy & dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has."

Shin, if you have to quote Malcom Friggin Muggeridge to disprove evolution, then it seems to me that your theology falls apart if you have to accept that the world is actually very old.

Pat Robertson has recently come out against Young Earth, because "you will lose your children"
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/29/pat-robertson-challenges-creationism/

But it's worse than that; when we see a Christian that denies the Earth and cosmos is very old, then we see someone who is not connected with the truth, but someone who runs very far from the truth when they see it.

Here's a quote from Origen - one of the people who created Christianity

    What intelligent person can imagine that there was a first “day,” then a second and a third “day”—evening and morning—without the sun, the moon, and the stars? [Sun, moon, and stars are created on the fourth "day."] And that the first “day”—if it makes sense to call it such—existed even without a sky? [The sky is created on the second "day."]

    Who is foolish enough to believe that, like a human gardener, God planted a garden in Eden in the East and placed in it a tree of life, visible and physical, so that by biting into its fruit one would obtain life? And that by eating from another tree, one would come to know good and evil? And when it is said that God walked in the garden in the evening and that Adam hid himself behind a tree, I cannot imagine that anyone will doubt that these details point symbolically to spiritual meanings, by using an historical narrative which did not literally happen. (p.71)

Here is a quote from Saint Augustine

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]

A Christian saint says that people who do not move with science are going to disgrace Christians, and minimize the number of people who are saved.

Perhaps you should have a look at your position on creationism and judge whether you are being laughed at, rather than converting people.

[Anfauglir]

For undeniable/exhaustive proof on this issue, please refer to my signature link & scroll down till u see : "Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

Unfortunately, I can't access Facebook - but I'm sure as someone who wants me to come to the truth, you will have no problem copying the relevant text here for us to discuss.

Answer : The unrepentant wicked...are cast into the Lake of Fire, & will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist.

While I wait.....a couple questions about the above.

What is the actual process?  So I die, I sleep.....then at some point I awake.  Do I immediately get given the choice to accept Christ?  Do I get to question and ponder, or is it a "snap awake yes/no right that's it" deal?

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?

Thanks in advance!

[plethora]

Away with catholics! Away with the orthodox! Away with the false traditions of men! Away with all this PAGANISM! YHWH is truly deserving of worship! Glory to JESUS in the highest!

Wow! ... this is what we've all been waiting for! The One True Christian^TM who has the 'True Truth of all Truths' and has come to share it with us!! [/sarcasm]

Take a number and get in line with all the other nutjob theists who come by with absolutely no evidence for their extraordinary claims. Not only that, but even if we were to accept and believe what you are preaching here ... it's not exactly worthy of praise.

The idea of a god that creates us sick and then commands us to be well is appalling. The idea that we are all undeserving vile creatures who need to constantly apologize to our creator for our existence is vile. The idea that such a god can only "forgive us" via the sadistic torture and killing his 'only son' is barbaric.

Luckily, those of us who are not deluded can breathe a collective sigh of relief ... safe in the knowledge that the above is not true and is merely man-made mythology originating in the ignorance and fear of hysterical primitive tribes in bronze-age middle east.

Only babies and innocent children need not sleep in death, nor take part in the resurrection at the Last Day.

Then what was the point of god allowing them into this world in the first place? 6.9 million children under the age of 5 died in 2011 alone, according to the World Health Organization[1].

What was the point of a child being born into hunger, disease and constant pain throughout its entire life? Even if they do get a blissful eternity in heaven ... that does not erase the fact that they suffered while on this earth. What kind of a god allows this? Certainly not one deserving of praise for sitting there with folded arms watching and doing nothing about it.

For undeniable/exhaustive proof on this issue, please refer to my signature link & scroll down till u see : "Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

Actual evidence speaks for itself. The fact that you are trying so hard to lend it extra credibility by describing it as 'undeniable/exhaustive proof' achieves the exact opposite.

1.	http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/index.html

[SHIN KAIRI]

For undeniable/exhaustive proof on this issue, please refer to my signature link & scroll down till u see : "Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

Unfortunately, I can't access Facebook - but I'm sure as someone who wants me to come to the truth, you will have no problem copying the relevant text here for us to discuss.

Have u actually tried to click on the link?? Bcz I made sure my fb page was set to public, which means... that even if u do not have a fb account u can still access it.

Answer : The unrepentant wicked...are cast into the Lake of Fire, & will be utterly destroyed and no longer exist.

What is the actual process?  So I die, I sleep.....then at some point I awake.  Do I immediately get given the choice to accept Christ?  Do I get to question and ponder, or is it a "snap awake yes/no right that's it" deal?

I believe you get to ponder...

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?

Thanks in advance!

All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

[SHIN KAIRI]

Away with catholics! Away with the orthodox! Away with the false traditions of men! Away with all this PAGANISM! YHWH is truly deserving of worship! Glory to JESUS in the highest!

Wow! ... this is what we've all been waiting for! The One True Christian^TM who has the 'True Truth of all Truths' and has come to share it with us!! [/sarcasm]

Take a number and get in line with all the other nutjob theists who come by with absolutely no evidence for their extraordinary claims. Not only that, but even if we were to accept and believe what you are preaching here ... it's not exactly worthy of praise.

The idea of a god that creates us sick and then commands us to be well is appalling. The idea that we are all undeserving vile creatures who need to constantly apologize to our creator for our existence is vile. The idea that such a god can only "forgive us" via the sadistic torture and killing his 'only son' is barbaric.

Luckily, those of us who are not deluded can breathe a collective sigh of relief ... safe in the knowledge that the above is not true and is merely man-made mythology originating in the ignorance and fear of hysterical primitive tribes in bronze-age middle east.

Hhhmmm... fair enough, but let me ask u this then. Why have you joined this forum then? Why do all skeptics that claim they are above reproach & that they have the truth & laugh at the bible, saying it's a fairytail, why do the ALL fight against it with everything they have? Why do skeptics ALWAYS fiercely attack it? Why not just laugh it away? Why discuss smthg that is not serious in the 1rst place?

Food for thought my friend...

Only babies and innocent children need not sleep in death, nor take part in the resurrection at the Last Day.

Then what was the point of god allowing them into this world in the first place? 6.9 million children under the age of 5 died in 2011 alone, according to the World Health Organization[1].

What was the point of a child being born into hunger, disease and constant pain throughout its entire life? Even if they do get a blissful eternity in heaven ... that does not erase the fact that they suffered while on this earth. What kind of a god allows this? Certainly not one deserving of praise for sitting there with folded arms watching and doing nothing about it.

1.	http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/index.html

So we could know right from wrong. Good from evil. & choose good.

[naemhni]

Hhhmmm... fair enough, but let me ask u this then. Why have you joined this forum then? Why do all skeptics that claim they are above reproach & that they have the truth & laugh at the bible, saying it's a fairytail, why do the ALL fight against it with everything they have? Why do skeptics ALWAYS fiercely attack it? Why not just laugh it away? Why discuss smthg that is not serious in the 1rst place?

For many of us, it is because we live in societies where a large majority of people do believe that the stuff in the bible is true, and they are quite insistent on attempting to pass legislation, and mold society in other ways, such that it is in conformity with their beliefs; e.g., trying to get creationism taught in science classrooms in public schools.

[none]

...
All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

Thanks for starting this thread and btw... welcome to hell.

[jetson]

Hhhmmm... fair enough, but let me ask u this then. Why have you joined this forum then? Why do all skeptics that claim they are above reproach & that they have the truth & laugh at the bible, saying it's a fairytail, why do the ALL fight against it with everything they have? Why do skeptics ALWAYS fiercely attack it? Why not just laugh it away? Why discuss smthg that is not serious in the 1rst place?

For many of us, it is because we live in societies where a large majority of people do believe that the stuff in the bible is true, and they are quite insistent on attempting to pass legislation, and mold society in other ways, such that it is in conformity with their beliefs; e.g., trying to get creationism taught in science classrooms in public schools.

Not to mention the religious groups active hatred and bigotry toward homosexuals, and same-sex couples.  And the active hatred and bigotry towards women, and women's health, and women's rights to determine what happend with their own bodies in reproductive issues.

Another serious issue is the hatred towards atheists.  It is unfounded , unwarranted, and unnecessary, and if Jesus was real, he would never have treated anyone the way many Christians choose to treat other human beings in this modern time, and in the past.

[plethora]

Why have you joined this forum then?

Irrelevant to my post ... but basically, I joined the forums (4 years ago now) because I was in need of a place where I could have rational discussions and share my thoughts on religion, atheism and other topics without being shut down by the majority for my 'unpopular ideas'.

I have learned a lot here. Other skeptics have swayed my opinion on various topics with logical arguments supported by evidence. I learn, others learn and we feel a sense of community.

Why do all skeptics that claim they are above reproach & that they have the truth & laugh at the bible, saying it's a fairytail, why do the ALL fight against it with everything they have? Why do skeptics ALWAYS fiercely attack it? Why not just laugh it away? Why discuss smthg that is not serious in the 1rst place?

None of us thinks we are 'above reproach'. We are all open to discussion and will consider other's arguments if they are presented logically and soundly. As I said, my opinions have changed as a result of many discussions with fellow skeptics ... and I've managed to change a few opinions myself.

About attacking it fiercely ... well, according to your beliefs I am a wretched sinner who deserves to go to hell where I will be "cast into a lake of fire and utterly destroyed" simply for not believing in a god... and you expect me to receive you with arms wide open? I think not.

Then what was the point of god allowing them into this world in the first place? 6.9 million children under the age of 5 died in 2011 alone, according to the World Health Organization[1].

What was the point of a child being born into hunger, disease and constant pain throughout its entire life? Even if they do get a blissful eternity in heaven ... that does not erase the fact that they suffered while on this earth. What kind of a god allows this? Certainly not one deserving of praise for sitting there with folded arms watching and doing nothing about it.

So we could know right from wrong. Good from evil. & choose good.

1.	http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/index.html

What?? I don't need millions of innocent children to die each year to know right from wrong!

I know perfectly well what right and wrong is without the need to have millions of innocent children being used as some kind of sadistic sacrifice just so I can "chose good".

... and neither do you.

[SHIN KAIRI]

Another serious issue is the hatred towards atheists.  It is unfounded , unwarranted, and unnecessary, and Jesus would never have treated anyone the way many Christians choose to treat other human beings in this modern time, and in the past.

True.

[SHIN KAIRI]

About attacking it fiercely ... well, according to your beliefs I am a wretched sinner who deserves to go to hell where I will be "cast into a lake of fire and utterly destroyed" simply for not believing in a god... and you expect me to receive you with arms wide open? I think not.

Well, it's certainly better than what almost all the denominations want you to believe i.e. that you will be tortured forever in a mystical place, while the devil laughs at you & while your saved family members look down from Heaven & enjoy the show... Which do you prefer? Heck, if I'm being bashed for sharing good news what would it be if I shared bad news... Story of my life...

Then what was the point of god allowing them into this world in the first place? 6.9 million children under the age of 5 died in 2011 alone, according to the World Health Organization[1].

What was the point of a child being born into hunger, disease and constant pain throughout its entire life? Even if they do get a blissful eternity in heaven ... that does not erase the fact that they suffered while on this earth. What kind of a god allows this? Certainly not one deserving of praise for sitting there with folded arms watching and doing nothing about it.

So we could know right from wrong. Good from evil. & choose good.

What?? I don't need millions of innocent children to die each year to know right from wrong!

1.	http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/index.html

Well, apparently you do, bcz you have yet to be saved If you care so much about the dying children around the world, let me ask u this : what have u done recently to prevent child death?

& no, enjoying yourself everyday doesn't count...

[Graybeard]

If you care so much about the dying children around the world, let me ask u this : what have u done recently to prevent child death?

1. I told two of them that praying to be cured of illness is a load of shit and they would be better seeing a doctor.
2. I scared off a she-bear that was about to tear up 42 of them
3. I stopped a man sacrificing his daughter because he'd made a stupid promise to god.
4. I misdirected Herod's men and no children were harmed.

What's Jesus done today... or any day?

[stuffin]

I see he made it here.

Based on the way he talks about catholics I think it would make him happy to see them all disemboweled. If they converted to his brand he would be ecstatic.

I'm sure his FB page is hell, props to whoever said that.

[Anfauglir]

Assuming I choose to reject.....am I instantly in the Lake of Fire, or is there a period of time between the rejection and the entry to the Lake?  If so, how long is that period?

Once thrown into the Lake.....is it so fiery hot that I wink out of existence in an instant?  Or does it take time for me to burn away?  If so, how long?  Seconds, minutes, hours, what?

All good questions but unfortunately, I don't know have the answer to those last questions. Doesn't mention it in the bible. I'm not God my friend...

And that's where the problem lies.  You were quite specific earlier on that:

(you think the afterlife is) a place of eternal torment and pain.  I have come to the conclusion that this is not so. ......."Is hell a place of eternal suffering/torment? NO. + what happens when you die?"

So you are positive that is doesn't last "for ever".....but you CAN'T say how long it does last?

How long do you think you could hold your hand on a hot stove, or in a fire (NB: DON'T TRY IT).  Unless you have a specific condition that deadens nerves, you'll manage maybe a couple seconds before the horrific pain makes you yank your hand away and run for the tap.  So while "for ever" may not be the case, it is still vitally important how long this burning actually goes on for.

Because if it lasts for any measurable time at all, then your lovely loving god is deliberately choosing a means of destruction that causes indescribable pain.

Just imagine, for a few minutes, that the "burning" doesn't last for ever.....but lasts for 24 hours.  Seriously, sit quiely and imagine it.  Then come back here and explain how your god is so loving.

One more thing:

Why do all skeptics ..... laugh at the bible, saying it's a fairytail, why do the ALL fight against it with everything they have? Why do skeptics ALWAYS fiercely attack it? Why not just laugh it away? Why discuss smthg that is not serious in the 1rst place?

Because there are seven countries in the world where atheism is punishable by death.  Seven countries where if I said "I don't believe in god" I would be executed by the state.  That ignores, of course, all the places where publicly saying "I don't believe in god" would earn me a lynching, or a beating.  The places where saying "I don't believe in god" would lose me my job, lose me friends, deeply harm my prospects.  If I wanted to become president, I'd have no chance - check out some opinion polls on how many Americans would not vote for an atheist candidate, regardless of policies.

Because of all that, I won't sit idly by and laugh it all off.  This isn't a harmless few people saying "I believe there are fairies in my garden", this is vast numbers of people whose faith causes reactions from (at best) indifference, through to deliberate murder - and they will feel fully justified in whatever they do.

That's why.

[SHIN KAIRI]

^ What 7 countries are u talking about?

Thx