Author Topic: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!  (Read 3989 times)

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Offline jetson

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #58 on: December 23, 2012, 12:54:16 PM »
"Love the Christian, hate the delusion."  They don't like hearing that, I can say with certainty.

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #59 on: December 23, 2012, 05:29:21 PM »
"Love the Christian, hate the delusion."  They don't like hearing that, I can say with certainty.
You gotta love how when we suggest that someone who believes that a talking snake told a rib women to eat a fruit, and that's why we're all evil, and in order to fix this the supreme ruler of the universe incarnates himself in a virgin's womb, and the child is the savior of mankind, and is killed, and then rises from the dead (along with everyone else dead in the vicinity) and that by accepting this you can live forever..... If you or I suggest that maybe, just maybe, this person is in need of a 302 (Involuntary Psychiatric Detention) WE are the assholes. But if somebody goes and blows up an abortion clinic because God told them to, they are OBVIOUSLY crazy. The God that personally exterminated every living thing on earth would never tell someone to do THAT. <rolls eyes>
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline 3sigma

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #60 on: December 23, 2012, 06:35:50 PM »
"Love the Christian, hate the delusion."  They don't like hearing that, I can say with certainty.

I’ve always despised that Christian trope, “Love the sinner, hate the sin”, because it is nothing more than weasel words disguising their hatred for the person. A sin is an act so saying, “hate the sin”, is really saying, “hate the way you act”.

Perhaps a better returning slap would be to say, “Love the Christian, hate the behaviour”. That would sharpen the point, though I doubt many Christians would recognise the parallel.
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. – David Hume 1711–1776

Offline jetson

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #61 on: December 23, 2012, 06:39:01 PM »
Yeah, I find it hard to reply to them because I feel my anger surfacing when I hear that phrase.

Offline mhaberling

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #62 on: December 24, 2012, 03:29:09 AM »
"Love the Christian, hate the delusion."  They don't like hearing that, I can say with certainty.

I’ve always despised that Christian trope, “Love the sinner, hate the sin”, because it is nothing more than weasel words disguising their hatred for the person. A sin is an act so saying, “hate the sin”, is really saying, “hate the way you act”.

Perhaps a better returning slap would be to say, “Love the Christian, hate the behaviour”. That would sharpen the point, though I doubt many Christians would recognise the parallel.

Have never used that phrase personally but most every time I hear it the context is... I really like/care for this person I wish they could just stop "objectionable behavior". And I guess I don't see how that's a bad thing to say
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #63 on: December 24, 2012, 05:42:43 AM »
It's not, in itself, a bad thing to say.  The problem is the context it's in - which is that of bigotry against homosexuals, usually.  "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is, in that case, exactly what 3sigma describes - weasel words to get out of responsibility for one's own bigoted hatred.  It is akin to a racist saying "love the black man, hate his blackness".
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Offline 3sigma

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #64 on: December 24, 2012, 06:19:35 AM »
Have never used that phrase personally but most every time I hear it the context is... I really like/care for this person I wish they could just stop "objectionable behavior". And I guess I don't see how that's a bad thing to say

People are responsible for their behaviour. You might even say that people are their behaviour because that’s the only way we know them. So when you say a person’s behaviour is objectionable, you are saying the person is objectionable.

I could never understand why they teach managers to criticise a person’s behaviour rather than the person—as if it makes any difference. If I say to someone, “what stupid behaviour!”, how is that person not going to think I’m calling them stupid? When Christians tell a gay person they hate homosexuality and homosexuality is an abomination, how is that person not going to take it as bigotry and hatred towards them? Of course, they should take it that way because that’s exactly what it is. Let me give you another example. Suppose someone told you that maintaining your particular beliefs is utterly moronic behaviour. Would you think of that as not criticising you in any way?
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. – David Hume 1711–1776

Online Azdgari

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #65 on: December 24, 2012, 06:26:53 AM »
3sigma, our behaviour at one point in time doesn't necessarily describe our character very well.  If someone does something stupid, that doesn't automatically mean that he or she is stupid.  Mistakes happen.  Describing the action avoids making a bolder claim than that for which one has evidence.

More than that, though, there's the psychological aspect.  If one's goal in communication is to change behaviour rather than get someone's back up, it helps not to tie that person's ego to the act itself.  Some distance, even just perceived distance, between the person and his or her action, softens the blow to his or her ego, and makes it more likely that the comment will be well-received.


As a side-note, why does it now say that you only have 3 posts?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline 3sigma

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #66 on: December 24, 2012, 07:05:19 AM »
More than that, though, there's the psychological aspect.  If one's goal in communication is to change behaviour rather than get someone's back up, it helps not to tie that person's ego to the act itself.  Some distance, even just perceived distance, between the person and his or her action, softens the blow to his or her ego, and makes it more likely that the comment will be well-received.

Yes, I’ve heard the theory and I guess some people may rationalise the criticism as not being about them as a person. However, more often than not, I’ve seen the person whose behaviour is being criticised take it as a personal affront. They don’t seem to pause to consider the subtle nuances of the wording.

That aside, when their homosexuality is labelled an abomination, I think most homosexuals would take that as a personal affront as well because one is criticising their identity as a person.


Quote
As a side-note, why does it now say that you only have 3 posts?

It is a cautionary tale. I changed the email address on my WWGHA account. The forum software sends a validation email when you do that. Unfortunately, the WWGHA server currently seems unable to send that email. Through various tests, I verified that it had the correct email address, but just in case, I changed it back to the old email (which, thankfully, you can do), but I still didn’t receive the validation email. There is no way to recover from that situation as an ordinary user and you can’t PM anyone to ask for help because you can’t log in.

I thought I’d wait for a day to see if the email problem resolved itself. Big mistake. If you don’t validate the account within some time period (perhaps 24 hours), the forum software deletes your account and username. I had to re-register with the same username, but of course, I still didn’t receive the validation email. I then PMed jetson on IGI instead and he kindly recreated the account for me. However, I lost my post count and Darwins and my old posts are now showing me as being a guest because the previous 3sigma username has a different userid within the database.

So here is an important safety tip. Don’t change your email address until the server problems are resolved. Otherwise you’ll probably lose your post count and Darwins, which, with your counts, may be somewhat annoying.
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. – David Hume 1711–1776

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2012, 10:18:26 PM »
"Love the Christian, hate the delusion." 

easier said than done
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2012, 09:21:31 AM »
I ran into a similar issue... except I quoted some scripture where god sanctions the killing of women and children to back me up... my feed post got about 9 responses, only 3 from people trying to defend religion. my responses to those, and a couple responses from a Christian friend who agreed with me despite being Christian.

However, one of the ones defending religion decided to make a post attacking atheism, where naturally I responded and basically got into it with a bunch of theists in the mold of D'Souza... finally sick of all the stupidity I asked if any Christian would like to take Jesus up on his offer to handle snakes and drink poison. Thread got eerily quiet.

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2012, 09:38:17 AM »
Yes, I’ve heard the theory and I guess some people may rationalise the criticism as not being about them as a person.

Then they would be in error.  It is about them as a person.  It's just less about their persistent nature as a person.

However, more often than not, I’ve seen the person whose behaviour is being criticised take it as a personal affront. They don’t seem to pause to consider the subtle nuances of the wording.

So you've given up and gone the "might as well make it totally personal anyway" route?

That aside, when their homosexuality is labelled an abomination, I think most homosexuals would take that as a personal affront as well because one is criticising their identity as a person.

Yes.  Because it's not temporary.  It's not an action, it's an attribute.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline CookieCrisp

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2013, 10:28:38 PM »
I had a very similar quote/picture show up on my newsfeed as well - complete with the billion likes.   I think that in a time of tragedy most  people are simply searching for answers, for comfort.  And a sense that "this" won't happen to them.  They seek some kind of exceptionalism solace that because THEY are TRUE believers, that Christ will spare them and their loved ones from such an atrocity.  Believing in that magical being up in the sky insulates them from the true horrors of humanity. 

"The Gawd" - Completely impressed you took that to Facebook.  I haven't yet really revealed my heathenest self - I left that option blank and refuse to participate.  I'm still in chicken shit territory.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2013, 12:58:53 AM »
"Love the Christian, hate the delusion."  They don't like hearing that, I can say with certainty.

I’ve always despised that Christian trope, “Love the sinner, hate the sin”, because it is nothing more than weasel words disguising their hatred for the person. A sin is an act so saying, “hate the sin”, is really saying, “hate the way you act”.

Perhaps a better returning slap would be to say, “Love the Christian, hate the behaviour”. That would sharpen the point, though I doubt many Christians would recognise the parallel.

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" ie beat the gay out of the homos.  That is along the same lines as the boarding schools that took native kids away from their families to beat the culture out of them and make them hate themselves: "kill the Indian, save the child". Either way you cannot accept the person as is, you have to radically change them to be like you. Then they will be okay. But it never works, only makes damaged dysfunctional people....

And Christians say that humans are inherently sinful, right? Why does god hate humanity? :-\
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #72 on: January 09, 2013, 06:48:52 AM »
I had a very similar quote/picture show up on my newsfeed as well - complete with the billion likes.   I think that in a time of tragedy most  people are simply searching for answers, for comfort.  And a sense that "this" won't happen to them.  They seek some kind of exceptionalism solace that because THEY are TRUE believers, that Christ will spare them and their loved ones from such an atrocity.  Believing in that magical being up in the sky insulates them from the true horrors of humanity. 

"The Gawd" - Completely impressed you took that to Facebook.  I haven't yet really revealed my heathenest self - I left that option blank and refuse to participate.  I'm still in chicken shit territory.
Ive always been outspoken for better or worse. Now I dont comment on everything everyday, only when they reach new levels of absurdity. I ignore the daily bible verses, the requests for prayer, the "praise gods," etc... but when theyre trying to force this non-sense into schools I speak out, or if they feel brazen enough to challenge my world view I see it as an open challenge and we all know its hard to find good theists to sharpen our teeth with!

Honestly, I figured I should be somewhat vocal,  because in my "community" (black community) atheism isnt seen as an option. I think the perception/stereotype of an "atheist" makes it hard for people to accept so I want to put a new face on it . I do know of a few more that arent quite out, but I know theyre there because when I make my points they "like" them or talk to me offline about stuff, and I throw em books or what-have-you.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2013, 08:05:12 AM »
I think the perception/stereotype of an "atheist" makes it hard for people to accept


Funny I never thought Aaron Ra is the stereotypical Atheist look, other than being white. I would think Carl Sagan was closer. Mock turtleneck, late 40s, white, male, professorial looking.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2013, 08:49:01 AM »
Context!! LOL.

When I used to think of atheism, a picture of Aaron Ra would be fixed in my mind (not Aaron Ra but someone looking like him). I think many in the black community think of an Aaron Ra type character and make it the avatar for atheism, we dont have any outspoken faces to attach to it. I also think they are getting their people confused, I think they link atheism to satan worship or whatever so its a twofold problem. Obviously I didnt do a poll and can just speculate off of my personal experience and those around me.

We need more outspoken atheists in the community to show that non-belief is diverse and your belief isnt connected to your nationality or race. Its definately an issue.

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #75 on: January 09, 2013, 11:26:41 AM »
^^^ Although you didn't ask for anything, I want to be sure you know about the group Black Atheists of America. I met the president of the group, Ayanna Watson, at the Midwest Atheist Convention in MN in August (she's a pretty impressive young woman), and her topic was exactly what you're talking about. She had some good insights, and a ton of information about the role of black atheists in history. It was eye-opening for a white middle-age woman from the 'burbs.  ;)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2013, 02:39:18 PM »
Of course, there should be mention of Asa Phillip Randolph when it comes to famous black Atheists. The man gets far less recognition than he deserves. After all, while it was Reverend King that made the famous speech, the 63 March on Washington was APR's baby.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2013, 02:55:37 PM »
I thought Darth Vader (with James Earl Jones' voice) was the face of atheism? Boy, did I have it wrong!

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #78 on: January 09, 2013, 03:40:52 PM »
I thought Darth Vader (with James Earl Jones' voice) was the face of atheism? Boy, did I have it wrong!

-Nam

I find your lack of faith amusing.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #79 on: January 09, 2013, 04:36:25 PM »
Thanks for the info--just looked up Black Atheists of America. Maybe I'll join! Then there will be what, maybe five or six of us!

And, yeah, I'm with you, the Gawd. I think most black folks think of someone looking like Aaron Ra or Carl Sagan or Isaac Asimov when the subject of atheism is raised. White, male and assumed to be kinda cold or off-putting. Not someone cool, funny, smart and fly like you and me. ;)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2013, 07:47:54 PM »
And for the record I like Aaron Ra... Carl Sagan would look like a regular dude to me if he didnt take all those pics with weird backgrounds. But I'll definately add the BAA into my resources for people that need that sort of thing to urge along their progression. Same with Asa Phillip Randolph et al. From what I understand there was a huge backing from atheistic blacks for MLK Jr.

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #81 on: January 09, 2013, 10:44:14 PM »




Apparently god's not terribly concerned with protecting kids in schools that happily do allow him in, either. Just ask the Amish of Bart Township, PA.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2013, 07:50:11 AM »

Apparently god's not terribly concerned with protecting kids in schools that happily do allow him in, either. Just ask the Amish of Bart Township, PA.

Evidently the Amish worship the wrong version of god.

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #83 on: January 10, 2013, 08:45:39 AM »
You're sayin' the god of 19th century technology is wrong?!!!
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #85 on: January 10, 2013, 12:12:34 PM »
And for the record I like Aaron Ra... Carl Sagan would look like a regular dude to me if he didn't take all those pics with weird backgrounds. But I'll definately add the BAA into my resources for people that need that sort of thing to urge along their progression. Same with Asa Phillip Randolph et al. From what I understand there was a huge backing from atheistic blacks for MLK Jr.

It is a strange little eddie left from the Wobblies and the World Workers Movement starting in 1900.  They were part of overthrowing the social order that kept ordinary people down, and those ordinary people being kept down often had dark brown skin. While Karl Marx got the big headlines, there were large portions of the workers movement that did identify religion as part of what kept the exploiting social order in place. It is the origin of the expression "Pie in the Sky," making fun of the concept of heaven, or "pie in the sky when you die," for you if you remained obedient. So there was a link between labor leaders and atheism, which McCarthy misinterpreted as being from Marx, where the link really predates the Communism that McCarthy was hunting for. However, since The New Deal, WWII and postwar prosperity had brought a great deal of the reforms the WWM was looking for to the white community, and with McCarthy on the prowl...the link was rendered nearly dead in the white community(lingering on in some Appalachian groups)...but not in the black one.









 









































« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 12:16:03 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Why when a terrible event happens do people preach?!?!
« Reply #86 on: January 10, 2013, 03:05:01 PM »
pie in the sky:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/282700.html

apparently religious organizations were as big a bunch of assholes then as they are now.
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