Author Topic: Guns again  (Read 19793 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #348 on: April 01, 2013, 12:47:16 PM »
The force is measured in foot-pounds,

[engineer] Technically, that is a measure of energy.  In the english units, which suck, Pounds can be mass or force.  However, in the context of foot-pounds, it is generally assumed to be force, since there is no reason for distance and mass to be together as a descriptor.  distance times force is work, aka, energy.
[/engineer]

Sorry, my bad.  It's been a while since college.  And I was a philosophy major, anyway... physics was one of only two courses, I think it was, where I got anything below an A-minus.  Not one of my stronger fields of knowledge.

Quote
Most "accidents" aren't really accidents in the sense that you're probably thinking.  In almost every such case, it's not an accident, it's someone being a smogbrain.  For a gun to truly go off by accident (for example, by dropping one on the floor, or something like that) is extremely rare.

They can go off accidentally, but it's very very unlikely. I'd bet that 99.9% of the time guns fire, somebody pulled the trigger.

That is what I thought.  So, in your experienced opinions, would you say that in cases where a gun owner says "the gun just went off", it is most probable the gun owner is full of crap?

Yes.  (Who says there are no simple answers?)

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My opinion is anyone who accidentally shoots anyone, including themselves, should be a candidate to have their gun owning rights revoked on grounds they are irresponsible idiots and a threat to society.

I agree.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #349 on: April 01, 2013, 01:19:17 PM »
guys with assault rifles show up to counter-protest a gun safety demonstration
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/03/28/1791361/men-with-loaded-rifles-intimidate-moms-gathered-at-gun-safety-rally/

I have a problem with this.  These guys are assholes and are just making the problem harder.  The gun nuts are cheering them on, while people who aren't gun nuts feel intimidated.  Picture this: abortion rights activists protesting and armed.  Anti-abortion rights activists show up to counter protest.  Also armed.  What is the real difference between that and the Bloods and Krips showing up at the same block?

Plus, you cannot tell the dangerous paranoid schizophrenics from the non-dangerous paranoid schizophrenics until it's too late.
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Offline Dante

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #350 on: April 01, 2013, 02:22:07 PM »
I have a problem with this.  These guys are assholes and are just making the problem harder. 

Absolutely agree, but these types of people likely have zero interest in solving the problem. They're there soley to feed their 2nd amendment egos, standing around going "look what I can do!" It seems on par with claiming 1st amendment rights after yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

You can't fix stupid.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #351 on: April 02, 2013, 05:08:43 PM »
guys with assault rifles show up to counter-protest a gun safety demonstration
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/03/28/1791361/men-with-loaded-rifles-intimidate-moms-gathered-at-gun-safety-rally/

I have a problem with this.  These guys are assholes and are just making the problem harder.  The gun nuts are cheering them on, while people who aren't gun nuts feel intimidated.

Oh, I don't know. Perhaps a few more incidents where the paranoid schizophrenics show up at peaceful gatherings is what it will take to make more Merkins wake up to reality.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #352 on: April 02, 2013, 07:08:49 PM »
what it will take to make more Merkins wake up to reality.

You so funny!  Merkins don't like reality, it scares them. They like simplistic sound bites and feel good superstition, like a sky daddy that will take care of them and that America is always number 1.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline shnozzola

Re: Guns again
« Reply #353 on: April 02, 2013, 08:29:28 PM »
..... while people who aren't gun nuts feel intimidated. 

   If you post against guns you don't want to be accused of propaganda, piling on, but if the Texas DA and his wife and a deputy are shot to death, they are still shot to death, whether  it's reported to often or not.  It is happening over and over and over.  Maybe the media should stop, so people can whisper to each other during the funerals standing out  in the cemeteries - " shhh, they were shot."  Much like George Dubya not wanting photographs of soldiers coffins coming in at Dover Air Force Base.  Shhh, its war, just ignore it.  It really isn't a problem if we don't know what to do about it.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 08:33:55 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #354 on: April 03, 2013, 02:51:45 PM »
Ah, data!  There aint nuthin I loves more than data!

http://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/AmericaUnderTheGun.pdf

Gun laws appear to work.  There is a correlation between states that have lax gun laws and the number of people killed therein.   Yeah yeah yeah, correlation is not causation.  I know that. 

It is not a perfect study.  I would like to have seen a regression analysis that accounted for poverty and education and probably a couple other factors.  Because, not coincidentally, all the states with the lax gun laws and high gun murder rates also happened to be the stupidest and poorest states.

But, we can say that having strict gun laws does not cause high rates of gun violence, as many gun nuts would have us believe.

more on that:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/us/report-links-high-rates-of-gun-violence-to-weak-laws.html?_r=0

A study mentioned in that did include "poverty, unemployment, sex and race, education, population density, violent deaths unrelated to firearms and household firearm ownership."
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1661390
It pretty much concurs with CAP study.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #355 on: April 03, 2013, 03:10:58 PM »
In going back reading this thread, it occurs to me that I've not been nearly gracious enough to Dante and pianodwarf.  I would like to thank you both for disagreeing with me in the kindest and most impersonal ways, and for the occasions on which you have demurred points.  I really appreciate that. 
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #356 on: April 03, 2013, 03:19:27 PM »
In going back reading this thread, it occurs to me that I've not been nearly gracious enough to Dante and pianodwarf.  I would like to thank you both for disagreeing with me in the kindest and most impersonal ways, and for the occasions on which you have demurred points.  I really appreciate that.

Thanks.  I've been practicing.  (Not a joke.  This is one of my "hot button" topics, and I don't like it when the rational skepticism I've worked so hard to achieve gets fogged up.  I'm kind of like Sarek on this one.  "I confess that my logic is uncertain where firearms are concerned.")
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Dante

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #357 on: April 03, 2013, 03:34:40 PM »
In going back reading this thread, it occurs to me that I've not been nearly gracious enough to Dante and pianodwarf.  I would like to thank you both for disagreeing with me in the kindest and most impersonal ways, and for the occasions on which you have demurred points.  I really appreciate that.

Thanks.  I've been practicing.  (Not a joke.  This is one of my "hot button" topics, and I don't like it when the rational skepticism I've worked so hard to achieve gets fogged up.  I'm kind of like Sarek on this one.  "I confess that my logic is uncertain where firearms are concerned.")

Aye, seconded, pd. I've had to delete and rewrite more than one response, but I do appreciate having my viewpoint challenged and learning new things as well, so a reasoned debate with reasonable people is always appreciated. So thanks, screwy.

Gun laws appear to work.  There is a correlation between states that have lax gun laws and the number of people killed therein.   Yeah yeah yeah, correlation is not causation.  I know that. 

It is not a perfect study.  I would like to have seen a regression analysis that accounted for poverty and education and probably a couple other factors.  Because, not coincidentally, all the states with the lax gun laws and high gun murder rates also happened to be the stupidest and poorest states.

But, we can say that having strict gun laws does not cause high rates of gun violence, as many gun nuts would have us believe.

I've yet to have time to read the links in detail, but I did notice right off the bat that there are some states in the [strong laws] bracket with some of the most gun violent cities, i.e: Michigan (Detriot) and Illinois (Chicago). There are large parts of certain cities in Cali and Jersey that aren't particularly safe, either.[1]
 1. Just an observation.
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #358 on: April 03, 2013, 11:14:29 PM »
what it will take to make more Merkins wake up to reality.

You so funny!  Merkins don't like reality, it scares them. They like simplistic sound bites and feel good superstition, like a sky daddy that will take care of them and that America is always number 1.

Not to cross-reference another thread, but that describes a significant portion of my Facebook news feed.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #359 on: April 04, 2013, 07:24:05 AM »
Thanks.  I've been practicing. 

Aye, seconded, pd.

good on ya both.

I've yet to have time to read the links in detail, but I did notice right off the bat that there are some states in the [strong laws] bracket with some of the most gun violent cities, i.e: Michigan (Detriot) and Illinois (Chicago).

For sure.  There are reasons for that.  In the case of Chigaco, part of that is because Illinois borders three states a with lax gun laws - Indiana, Kentucky and Missouri. 

So Chicagoan villains can easily get around illinois gun laws.  I sort of see states without good gun laws as kids whose parents don't get them vaccinated.  They are putting the vaccinated ones at risk too by giving the disease a place to hide out.   It is hard to make gun laws that prevent the wrong people from getting guns work when there are so many loopholes. 

This was one of the reasons Mayor Bloomberg sued Virginia gun dealers.  A lot of the guns used for crime in NY come from Virginia, Pennsylvania or other neaby states with weaker laws.

There are large parts of certain cities in Cali and Jersey that aren't particularly safe, either

Yes.  I think those areas would benefit from the other ideas you had to help stop gun violence.  Addressing poverty and unemployment.  I do not think only restricting guns solves the problem.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #360 on: April 04, 2013, 08:57:25 AM »
I don't know if you've been following this or not, but there have been quite a few cases where people were recording police carrying out their duties, and the police have ordered them to stop and confiscated their equipment, and even arrested them, if they didn't.  It's very worrisome.  Courts have reiterated that police going about their duties in public places have no expectation of privacy and that it's perfectly legal to record them, but a lot of cops don't like that, and it's still happening.

new thread
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24693.0.html
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #361 on: April 05, 2013, 11:41:17 AM »
Anyone read the NH gun law?  What are your thoughts?
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Offline Dante

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #362 on: April 05, 2013, 12:26:10 PM »
Anyone read the NH gun law?  What are your thoughts?

Got a link?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #363 on: April 05, 2013, 12:45:54 PM »
Couldn't find a good one that just had the law in it.  Every one I checked was a lot of extraneous "reporting".  Feh.  Reporters.  Ego maniacs.  I'll keep looking.  +1 to anyone who finds it first.
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Offline Dante

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #364 on: April 05, 2013, 01:05:19 PM »
Couldn't find a good one that just had the law in it.  Every one I checked was a lot of extraneous "reporting".  Feh.  Reporters.  Ego maniacs.  I'll keep looking.  +1 to anyone who finds it first.

I'm not finding anything on NH, but Connecticut was making news this week having just passed some new measures.

I cant find a link to the actual law, but according to the news sources I'm reading, it's pretty much ,
  • banning more "assault" weapons
  • limiting magazines to 10 rounds
  • requiring universal background checks for all firearm transfers

I don't think the banning those particular weapons will have any effect on bullet related deaths.

The magazine limit has a grandfather clause letting those with higher capacity mags to keep them if they are willing to register them. Dumb. And unenforceable, I think. I also think that this won't have any effect on bullet related deaths.

Universal background checks may help reduce bullet related deaths if and only if, as you've alluded to before, it's federal, and not state by state.

edit to add:

One thing I've found lacking in all of these new and proposed laws is reinstating a waiting period. I think I recall seeing some stats where a small percentage of bullet related crime, and a large percentage of bullet related suicides declined when states had this law on the books.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 01:11:03 PM by Dante »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #365 on: April 05, 2013, 02:04:37 PM »
oh jesus christ.  I meant connecticut.  why in the world I said new hampshire, I don't know.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #366 on: April 08, 2013, 09:44:52 AM »
more humor and tragedy.  gun fail part 12
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/05/1198090/-GunFAIL-XII


edit-
 which are your favorites?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 09:47:09 AM by screwtape »
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #367 on: April 08, 2013, 07:06:32 PM »
which are your favorites?


All of them.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Nick

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #368 on: April 09, 2013, 08:15:30 AM »
4 year old in Tenn shoots and kills deputy's wife.  The deputy was showing 2 of his guns to a relative and sat one on the bed.  The kid picked it up and killed the deputy's wife. 

And they want to arm teachers???   and everyone possible.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline shnozzola

Re: Guns again
« Reply #369 on: April 09, 2013, 05:33:00 PM »
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
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Offline Nick

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #370 on: April 09, 2013, 08:15:19 PM »
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Dante

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #371 on: April 10, 2013, 02:21:17 PM »
A compromise has been reached by a couple politicos on background checks, so it looks like it might go to vote.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/04/manchin-toomey-background-checks-compromise-reid#13656211699611&action=collapse_widget&id=3398514

Seems to have a pretty big loophole in it though.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #372 on: April 10, 2013, 03:32:33 PM »
I'm glad they are getting something done, but what the house does to it remains to be seen.  The loophole is still huge enough to enable straw sales and all manner of skuduggery.  I really think all guns should be registered. That is the only way to have accountability for people who illegally transfer guns.

Btw, Dante, you should check out the Rude Pundit.  He has issues with the Gun Guy, whose article you linked. 
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Offline Dante

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #373 on: April 10, 2013, 03:48:25 PM »
Btw, Dante, you should check out the Rude Pundit.  He has issues with the Gun Guy, whose article you linked.

Ok, done. I didn't find RP to be particularly insightful, nor rational. Mostly he came across as a pompous prick.

Was there anything in either article you wanted to discuss?
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #374 on: April 10, 2013, 11:26:46 PM »
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #375 on: April 11, 2013, 09:47:30 AM »
Was there anything in either article you wanted to discuss?

I probably should have mentioned that the RP really didn't like Gun Guy.

I thought the gun guy made some good points in the interview. But I also thought he made some goofy statements. "Respect gun guys because we need them to be custodians of the guns because guns are so dangerous."  I don't get that.  That sounds like a circular argument.   And he dodged every effort to get him to explain himself.

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Offline Dante

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #376 on: April 11, 2013, 10:33:44 AM »
I probably should have mentioned that the RP really didn't like Gun Guy.

Nah, I figured they probably weren't going to be in agreement. I don't much care for RP's schtick tho. I was also disappointed that the RP didn't really have any argument against what GG was saying, but instead just made blanket statements, refuting strawmen.

Quote
I thought the gun guy made some good points in the interview. But I also thought he made some goofy statements. "Respect gun guys because we need them to be custodians of the guns because guns are so dangerous."  I don't get that.  That sounds like a circular argument.   And he dodged every effort to get him to explain himself.

Yeah, the interview wasn't nearly as good as the article I linked earlier. I don't recall if he said that line in his article, and right now I'm too lazy to go look it up again, but I agree he said some things in the interview that were.....off the wall? The interviewer seemed more than a little disingenuous towards the GG too, which probably contributed to that.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.