Guns again

[Dante]

A really good article/interview posted today, giving, IMO, very clear insight into the mindset of many American "gun nuts". Don't worry, it's a short read.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/03/what-liberals-need-to-understand-about-gun-guys/273736/?google_editors_picks=true

[Nick]

2,498 killed in the USA from guns since Sandy Hook...and counting.

[su27]

2,498 killed in the USA from guns since Sandy Hook...and counting.

I'm just curious - how many killed by cars in the same time?

[pianodwarf]

2,498 killed in the USA from guns since Sandy Hook...and counting.

I'm just curious - how many killed by cars in the same time?

Extrapolating from the year 2011, the latest year for which data is available, and assuming that the rate at which motor vehicle deaths have been declining in recent years is remaining constant, then approximately 6,900, or perhaps a few hundred fewer than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

[screwtape]

I'm just curious - how many killed by cars in the same time?

I'm not sure.  But I know it used to be a lot more. Then, because so many people were dying in car accidents, we passed laws to make cars safer.  We added seat belts, antilock brakes, airbags, crumple zones, safety glass, and lots of other features.  We have cars inspected periodically to make sure they are roadworthy.  We regulated car safety to the benefit of everyone. 

Do you see where this point is heading? 

[Azdgari]

If only we'd made it illegal to study car accidents...

[screwtape]

I forgot to add, we register vehicles, require insurance, and licence drivers to make sure they can drive to a minimum level of safety. 

[Nick]

Several communities have passed laws mandating that all citizens arm themselves.  A community in Georgia just did this week.  I thought how strange.  To mandate that someone carry health insurance is socialist...mandate to be armed must be All American.

[Chronos]

^ It's a dual plan. If you get too sick to afford care, you can just put a bullet through your brain.

[su27]

Several communities have passed laws mandating that all citizens arm themselves.  A community in Georgia just did this week.  I thought how strange.  To mandate that someone carry health insurance is socialist...mandate to be armed must be All American.

Is crime rate raising in these communities or going down?

[Nick]

Several communities have passed laws mandating that all citizens arm themselves.  A community in Georgia just did this week.  I thought how strange.  To mandate that someone carry health insurance is socialist...mandate to be armed must be All American.

Is crime rate raising in these communities or going down?

Dont know.  For the most part they seem to be small towns in rural areas.  So I would say probably neither.  It is just a reaction to the gun histeria in the country.

I don't know about your community but the thought of everybody in mine being armed is not a good thing.

[screwtape]

gun fails episode 8, from Kos
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/08/1190858/-GunFAIL-VIII

[Nick]

2605 killed with guns in USA since Sandy Hook and counting.

[kaziglu bey]

2605 killed with guns in USA since Sandy Hook and counting.

Nope, no problem with gun violence at all. Nothing to see here. NRA! NRA! You'll take my guns over my dead body! Gun control is socialism, just like Hitler!

[su27]

2605 killed with guns in USA since Sandy Hook and counting.

Are these only innocent people killed by madmen or also kills that prevented rape or murder?

[screwtape]

Are these only innocent people killed by madmen

Madmen?  Really?

or also kills that prevented rape or murder?

A lot of them are accidental.  Some of them are robberies where the dead guy may or may not have even been armed.  Castle laws.

[Nick]

In the 3 months since Sandy Hook more people have dies (2793) from guns  in the USA than died in 9/11.  In his state of the union speech Obama asked for at least a vote on gun control for the victims of guns.  Looks like that won't happen either.

[su27]

In the 3 months since Sandy Hook more people have dies (2793) from guns  in the USA than died in 9/11.

But we don't really know if these numbers show criminals shooting innocent people (or other criminals) or innocent people defending their lives?

[Mrjason]

In the 3 months since Sandy Hook more people have dies (2793) from guns  in the USA than died in 9/11.

But we don't really know if these numbers show criminals shooting innocent people (or other criminals) or innocent people defending their lives?

there are nonlethal ways to defend lives

[screwtape]

su,

you keep saying that, as if you expect all 2800 of them to be people defending themselves.  That is actually a very rare occurrence.  Here is a collection of hundreds of shooting new stories.  Almost none of them involve self defense.  Most of them are stupid and tragic accidents involving irresponsible idiots who probably should not have guns despite not being criminals. 

I think that by saying we should keep guns away from criminals is too low a bar.  They should also be kept from irresponsible idiots. 

[pianodwarf]

you keep saying that, as if you expect all 2800 of them to be people defending themselves.  That is actually a very rare occurrence.

People defending themselves with firearms is actually quite common.  Estimates vary quite a bit, but the best estimates I've seen put the number at somewhere between 100,000 and 370,000 such cases per year in the United States.  The thing is, though, that in something like 92% of those cases, what happens is that the would-be victim simply brandishes a gun, and the criminal flees -- the gun is not fired at all.  And in most of the remaining cases, the only shot fired is a warning shot.  Private citizens use a tremendous amount of self-restraint when it comes to actually shooting someone in self-defense because they know perfectly well that doing so can ruin your life, even if the criminal doesn't die.

[screwtape]

People defending themselves with firearms is actually quite common. 

I'm extremely skeptical of those numbers for a lot of reasons.  But the point I was making was different.  Nick posted actual shooting numbers.  su27 seems to think a lot of those people are shot out of self defense.  My point was, they probably are not.  Which kind of coincides with your point.

[pianodwarf]

People defending themselves with firearms is actually quite common. 

I'm extremely skeptical of those numbers for a lot of reasons.

The numbers you should be skeptical of are the ones coming from biased sources.  The NRA likes to say 2.5 million times a year, for example, but that number has been challenged for various methodological reasons and is almost certainly much too high.  The figure of 100,000 times a year, however, comes from the National Crime Victimization Survey, which is administered by the federal government.  The higher end of the range comes from people who have been critical of the NCVS methodology, however, I'm not sure what, specifically, their criticisms are (and what their biases might be), so I don't know how much stock to put into them.  I am comfortable using NCVS numbers, though.

But the point I was making was different.  Nick posted actual shooting numbers.  su27 seems to think a lot of those people are shot out of self defense.  My point was, they probably are not.  Which kind of coincides with your point.

Yes, it does.

[su27]

su27 seems to think a lot of those people are shot out of self defense.  My point was, they probably are not.  Which kind of coincides with your point.

I don't think anything - I just ask. It's quite important to know how many of these cases were policemen shooting to save lives, isn't it?
Also pianodwarf has a good point on the cases where just showing the gun prevented crime.

[screwtape]

I don't think anything - I just ask.

No?  Okay.  Well, it kind of sounded that way.  But I guess I was mistaken.

[su27]

I don't think anything - I just ask.

No?  Okay.  Well, it kind of sounded that way.  But I guess I was mistaken.

Well, I'm obviously pro-gun, right? I like "my house is my castle" rule. And I'm an IPSC shooter.
But I live in a country that has heavy restrictions on gun access. The law here is bad - the right to own a sport gun is a subject of a clerk decision who may or may not give you permit, depending of his mood. It is almost impossible to get a permit for carrying gun in self-defence - you have to be killed first (twice, if possible) and then maybe a clerk will consider that you really may need a gun.
It is another side of your "too much guns" problem. The solution is not simple - look at the London after banning all guns - is it really safer with criminals still having them and gangs of bored unemployed "chavs" with screwdrivers and baseball bats?

P.S. But I agree it is too easy to go to the shopping center and buy automatic weapon. I know not everyone is ready to own a gun.

[Nick]

We went to war in Iraq because of WMDs (that were not there), yet in our own country assault rifles are designed to kill a lot of people quickly...I would call those WMDs...yet our politicians think anyone should be able to own and use those.  There was a headline front page pic today of all the Sandy Hook kids killed with a headline "Shame on US".  We are a sick people.

[screwtape]

I'm just curious - how many killed by cars in the same time?

Lemme come back to this^.  I heard a great piece on NPR today. 
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/03/21/174851371/colorado-doctors-treating-gunshot-victims-differ-on-gun-politics

The first sentence:

n Colorado, more people die from gunshots than car crashes.

Is it okay to do something about guns now?

[Chronos]

I'm just curious - how many killed by cars in the same time?

Lemme come back to this^.  I heard a great piece on NPR today. 
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/03/21/174851371/colorado-doctors-treating-gunshot-victims-differ-on-gun-politics

The first sentence:

n Colorado, more people die from gunshots than car crashes.

Is it okay to do something about guns now?

I don't think Colorado roads were suddenly made safer for driving.