Author Topic: Guns again  (Read 20817 times)

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Offline Nick

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Guns again
« on: December 14, 2012, 02:26:57 PM »
Had the shooting in the mall earlier this week and now the shooting at an elem school.  27 dead ... most kids.  But Im sure it is too soon to talk about the gun culture in this country.  Imagine how those parents are going to feel each year at xmas time.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2012, 04:03:51 PM »
The very least that can be done is that the police or ATF or whoever,
(i) start making checks on people and
(ii) make annual checks, and
(iii) have all police and doctors report anyone who is behaving in a weird, threatening or violent manner and suspend their right to carry arms and take their weapons into safe custody until such time as they have successfully completed a training course for anger management and have, for a year had no other remarks against them.

Once they have completed the course, and for the next year, the person who ran the course will be severally liable for any firearms offence they commit.

They then may have their guns back and continue to be a part of a well organized militia.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2012, 04:33:09 PM »
I think I have at least part of the answer.

Anyone committing a mass shooting will immediately and automatically have their name changed to "John Doe". Or Jane, as the case may be. Their actual name will never be reported in the mass media, nor will any photos of the shooter ever be published. No description of the person or his or her past or anything else that describes the person will ever be published.

This prevents going out with a bang, so to speak. People wanting to be noticed will find that mass killings will not do them any good.

Second: Every victim of a mass shooting will be described prominently described, and the scope of their loss (the effect of their death on individuals, institutions, chat rooms, whatever) will be printed in an effort to make it perfectly frickin' clear that innocent victims of mindless acts are human beings that lost everything by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Many 911 victims were memorialized quite publicly, and I think it helped make the loss clearer to all. The same should be done for the victims of todays school shooting, of the recent theatre and mall victims, etc. This would apply to those who are injured as well. We need to turn ourselves into humans so that we will be less likely to be shot by those who think of everyone as faceless nobodies.

Third: Make it clear that if you are an individual or a part of a small group that is becoming obsessed with committing such a crime, all you have to do is walk into any medical facility, tell someone that you need help, and an army of trained professionals will immediately begin helping via psychological intervention. The goal of all involved will be to actually help and cure the person with the problems. Such interventions will be made public (though the name of the person with the problem would not be released), broadcasting the fact that someone in need of help got it and was helped through the recovery process, hopefully successfully.

These are just ideas off the top of my head after hearing about todays absolutely senseless killings. I felt much the same way after the Norwegian massacre and of course feel much the same way after every mass killing. This shit has to stop, and the media has to stop doing exactly what most of the killers want: providing instant fame.

On top of the above steps, we kind of need to step back as a society and figure out what the f**k we're doing wrong to cause such people to exist. And if any religious person claims that all we need is jesus, keep in mind that Timothy McVeigh already had him. He expressed a belief in god after he blew up the Federal building in Oklahoma City. So religion is not an anecdote, nor is any other philosophical stance, if it can be combined with insanity.

Sorry, I'm just angry. I cannot imagine what set of circumstances could ever set me off on a jihad against innocents just because I've had a bad day or a bad life. I understand (in the sense that it has at least a tiny bit of rationality) when someone kills a person who has actually harmed them or someone they loved. But school kids? No frickin' way.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2012, 04:51:39 PM »
FOX and Mike Huckabee is blaming it on God being taken out of the schools.  So there is your answer.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

3sigma

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2012, 05:27:23 PM »
On top of the above steps, we kind of need to step back as a society and figure out what the f**k we're doing wrong to cause such people to exist.

Exactly. Perhaps one of the first questions to ask should be: why does the US apparently have three times as many of these shootings as all the other countries in the world combined? Just this year, the US has had seven school shootings leaving 41 people dead. The rest of the world has had one school shooting and one bombing leaving a total of five dead.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2012, 05:42:21 PM »
FOX and Mike Huckabee is blaming it on God being taken out of the schools.  So there is your answer.

Thinking one has all the answers and actually having all the answers are two very different things. Passing the blame while espousing hatred and amplifying differences and insisting that compromise is weak and that the rich are gods and belittling all who don't talk the talk does not actually contribute to anything. Let alone solutions.;

The free market solution? they don't have one because there is no way to do the right thing and get rich too. Solutions don't fit their paradigm.

They best the right can do is say that if we were all armed, we could shoot our way out of anything. The trouble is, little kids can't lift large caliber weapons. Probably because of original sin or something. So obviously we need to keep them in the womb until they are big enough. Like 13 or so. And then give 'em guns.

Hey, this having all the answers crap is easy! I just make sh*t up! I too can be mindless! I think I'll switch parties!

Sorry, I'm pissed right now. Kids! Don't shoot the kids...
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2012, 05:42:55 PM »
On top of the above steps, we kind of need to step back as a society and figure out what the f**k we're doing wrong to cause such people to exist.

Yes.  As I so often like to say, guns are not the problem.  They indicate that there is a problem.

The comparison I usually make in this regard is Iceland.  Iceland also has a fairly high gun ownership rate -- about thirty guns per hundred people.  (Not as high as the United States, but still higher than most other countries.)  And yet violent crime in Iceland, gun-related or otherwise, is practically nonexistent.  We should figure out what they're doing right and try to emulate it.  Universal healthcare would definitely be a good start.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Nick

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2012, 05:45:29 PM »
You gave me a visual of K students packing along with their lunches in the new world order of the USA.  We are a sad people...but free to kill each other.  Guy in Florida who killed the kid because his music was too loud and will prob get away with it.  Its NUTS out there.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Nick

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2012, 05:46:26 PM »
On top of the above steps, we kind of need to step back as a society and figure out what the f**k we're doing wrong to cause such people to exist.

Yes.  As I so often like to say, guns are not the problem.  They indicate that there is a problem.

The comparison I usually make in this regard is Iceland.  Iceland also has a fairly high gun ownership rate -- about thirty guns per hundred people.  (Not as high as the United States, but still higher than most other countries.)  And yet violent crime in Iceland, gun-related or otherwise, is practically nonexistent.  We should figure out what they're doing right and try to emulate it.  Universal healthcare would definitely be a good start.
Probably too damn cold to go out.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline jetson

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2012, 05:49:29 PM »
On top of the above steps, we kind of need to step back as a society and figure out what the f**k we're doing wrong to cause such people to exist.

Yes.  As I so often like to say, guns are not the problem.  They indicate that there is a problem.

The comparison I usually make in this regard is Iceland.  Iceland also has a fairly high gun ownership rate -- about thirty guns per hundred people.  (Not as high as the United States, but still higher than most other countries.)  And yet violent crime in Iceland, gun-related or otherwise, is practically nonexistent.  We should figure out what they're doing right and try to emulate it.  Universal healthcare would definitely be a good start.

How easy is it to get guns in Iceland?  What are the limits, if any?  Is it really comparable to the U.S.?  Here in the U.S., I think the NRA would be happiest when all citizens have at least a semit-automatic gun of their own.

Guns are definitely a part of this problem. 

Offline Nick

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2012, 05:51:10 PM »
I don't understand why we need the kind of guns that can do this kind of damage.  Rifles and hand guns are fine.  These things have no purpose xcept this kind of stuff.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Emily

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2012, 05:53:36 PM »
FOX and Mike Huckabee is blaming it on God being taken out of the schools.  So there is your answer.

So instead of honestly focusing on the tragedy right now they are subtly or directly using this story to support their own agenda for trying to get god back in the classroom.

Bastards.  >:(

It is a sad story. Too much sad news these days. 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 05:56:13 PM by Emily »
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I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline Nick

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2012, 05:58:05 PM »
FOX and Mike Huckabee is blaming it on God being taken out of the schools.  So there is your answer.

So instead of honestly focusing on the tragedy right now they are subtly or directly using this story to support their own agenda for trying to get god back in the classroom.

Bastards.  >:(

It is a sad story. Too much sad news these days.
You can see their point.  If God had been there the guy never would have gotten thru the door.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2012, 06:01:13 PM »
How easy is it to get guns in Iceland?  What are the limits, if any?  Is it really comparable to the U.S.?

Licensing and registration are required, but you don't need to show "legitimate need" or anything like that.  That is comparable to some jurisdictions in the U.S., but not others.

Quote
Here in the U.S., I think the NRA would be happiest when all citizens have at least a semit-automatic gun of their own.

Strawman.

Probably too damn cold to go out.

Iceland's climate is actually rather mild, at least for a significant portion of the year.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

3sigma

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2012, 06:04:21 PM »
Guns are definitely a part of this problem.

Yes, guns are part of the problem, but it’s also the gun culture and the culture in general. Why do people want a gun? Why do they feel they need a gun? And, above all, why do disaffected people choose to walk into a school and shoot innocent children. What sort of society breeds that kind of attitude?

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2012, 06:08:02 PM »
Guns are definitely a part of this problem.

Yes, guns are part of the problem, but it’s also the gun culture and the culture in general. Why do people want a gun? Why do they feel they need a gun? And, above all, why do disaffected people choose to walk into a school and shoot innocent children. What sort of society breeds that kind of attitude?

Agreed. Why do so many insist on responding to what they see as the problem (violence) by encouraging more guns when the sane response would be to concentrate on the causes of the violence.

The same people would probably propose umbrella ownership if it was discovered that an asteroid was going to hit us.

We humans are better than this, but we let those among us that are not better than this dictate our reality. Shame on us.
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Offline shnozzola

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2012, 06:20:23 PM »
Has this always happened, in every society, and we just didn't have the 24 hr news cycle that get people to the scene almost as fast as first responders?

Will the US mandate metal detectors at every public building?  Who will want to pay for it?  What do metal detectors detect?  Does that mean guns ARE a problem?  Does a gun owner say guns are not the problem?  Does a non-gun owner say guns are the problem?

Probably simply the loss of families eating every dinner together and discussing  how everyone's day went is as important as anything.   I've noticed during the summer, in farming families I work with, how lucky it is to have mom and dad home all day, and the kids catching snakes in the creek while mom brings everyone iced tea.  Is the loss of that nuclear family care causing a problem.  Maybe we can never go back to that as a society.  Does Iceland have more of that than the US?  Are most housewives home in Iceland?
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Offline none

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2012, 06:30:33 PM »
The United States is a purely territorial focused country.
it permeates every idea from everybody I come across.
it is all about segregation. isolation.
there is no unity. there is no trust.
they only thing you can count on is people being afraid of each other.
this country's mentality sucks.
and I don't blame everyone for this.
it appears that only half the population is willing to bring the other half down because of what their handlers tell them.
I would like to have a serious discussion about what would make the country I reside in a better place, if any one is interested....
it is kinda tragic when the demographics of our prison populations don't match that of the law enforcement authorities.. just saying...

Offline Chronos

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2012, 06:38:55 PM »
FOX and Mike Huckabee is blaming it on God being taken out of the schools.  So there is your answer.

http://gawker.com/5968633/mike-huckabee-says-conn-shooting-happened-because-we-removed-god-from-our-schools

^ At least he isn't blaming just homos, hookers and abortionists, like Falwell used to do. He's decided to be more inclusive.

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2012, 06:40:58 PM »
The free market solution? they don't have one because there is no way to do the right thing and get rich too. Solutions don't fit their paradigm.

They best the right can do is say that if we were all armed, we could shoot our way out of anything. The trouble is, little kids can't lift large caliber weapons.

No, but they can be armed with grenades. They're easy to throw.
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Offline shnozzola

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2012, 07:21:28 PM »
I would like to have a serious discussion about what would make the country I reside in a better place, if any one is interested....
There's a web site that seems to address this.  The link to it is on the front page of this website.  At the bottom is a link:
 Deciding To Be Better

In the site there is a page to dig down to.  It is Oprah Winfrey-ish/ Dr. Oz-ish,and maybe that is why Marshall Brain no longer cares about this site he created. He's been on their shows.  He's gone over to the Wonderful World of Disney.  However, there is some food for thought about how we in society should treat each other:
                                                 http://decidingtobebetter.com/values.htm
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 07:31:10 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline rev45

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2012, 07:29:13 PM »
You can see their point.  If God had been there the guy never would have gotten thru the door.
One of the first things I thought about when I heard about this on the radio when the hosts were asking everyone to keep the victims in their thoughts and prayers was the song "Jesus loves the little children."  It just popped in my mind.  I can't help but think about God's love as the children were scared out of their freaking minds as a lunatic went on a rampage killing the faculty and their classmates.  The screams and blood they saw as their classmates died and the trauma that will be with them for a long time if not forever.  The parents tears and torment as their children are ruthlessly taken away from them before the Christmas holiday.

Jesus loves the little children.
God's plan everyone.  It's perfect.
Here read a book.  It's free.
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Offline none

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2012, 07:36:26 PM »
I thank you for the link and interest shnozzola.
of course I have something to say... it is my nature... and of course I can mention that I get a good impression of what the front page says...
now I will say that I didn't dig to deep so to speak but I did see this and I don't agree with it...
Quote
if the topic of discussion is something like alcoholism or teen pregnancy, it is best to escort the child from the room so that the conversation can continue.
I was "sheltered" as a "child" and it seriously fucked me up for a long time.
I don't see the advantage of sheltering a child from any discussion unless it harms the child or has the potential to harm the child.
I can use the church child sex thing as an example.. nobody talks about it and it happens...
other than that it looks pretty cool...
thanks for posting the link.
I am still interested in other websites and forums that might be available.
thanks.

Offline Nick

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2012, 08:04:44 PM »
I heard a report tonight on TYT about how the bodies are still in the school tonight because it is being processed.  The parents who have not found their kids are in the firehouse waiting...knowing that their child is for all purposes gone.  They even mentioned that the sceen is so bad in the school that trained 1st respoders are going to be in need of counseling.  I can't even imangine how you would deal with and get over something like this.

This so called "exceptional" nation is one sick puppy.

HOw could you go to a church service and give any kind of lip service to the idea of a god?  What kind of monster would sit back and watch this all unfold?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline none

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2012, 08:11:07 PM »
um, a human being is the monster you are looking for.
just so happens the human being who pulled the trigger on the other human beings killed himself too.

Offline Nick

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2012, 08:15:04 PM »
I realize that.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline none

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2012, 08:19:41 PM »
well that is a good place to start "realization".....

Offline none

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2012, 08:24:06 PM »
ahh well.. I have had enough.. I'll be watching some theatrical violence in lieu of continuing this conversation for now...

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Re: Guns again
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2012, 08:29:52 PM »
FOX and Mike Huckabee is blaming it on God being taken out of the schools.  So there is your answer.

What do they know about God?  Are they ordained?

On the other hand the right Reverend Bryan Fischer of the American Family Association tweeted today it is because it was a gun free zone.  So it wasn't taking God out of the school it was taking guns out of the school.